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  #51  
Old 04-21-2017, 08:29 AM
LAA LAA is offline
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Note: For anyone bugged about my teasing of the insignificance of the 9mm, I do load them also. Usually 500 at a time. Different powders, different bullets. They "all" do get used around here.
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  #52  
Old 04-21-2017, 08:32 AM
brucev brucev is offline
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Have killed a lot of deer. Long ago figured out that it doesn't take a cannon to kill a deer. Shoot a decent round. Put the shot into the deer where it will do the job. Get the 4WD and head for the cooler!

Have never shot two-legged anything. Never want to. But, average two legged critter is no tougher than a deer. Most ... not anywhere near as tough. Doesn't take a cannon to get the job done.

Nowadays ... police use basically 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Emotion and hyperbole aside, all of them are about the same. Police, etc., are forced to face reality ... PC req. that they hire women (capable or not) and budget constraints restrict range training. Further, everyone just isn't into guns. For most officers, a pistol is just a tool. They will use what they are issued. Best they be issued a pistol/caliber that they can actually use. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.
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  #53  
Old 04-21-2017, 09:16 AM
Remmark54 Remmark54 is offline
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I am retired from Pathology. I have examined bullets from most of the calibers. Some from living and some from the dead, including .22LR. The body had defense mechanisms for survival like the skin being elastic and have the ability to close off wounds for example. It can be difficult to tell what caliber the person was shot with because of these bodily defense mechanisms. The 1/10 of an inch in diameter is not enough of a difference to matter in a practical sense since the body can adapt etc. It still is bullet placement and won't make up for lousy shooting.

The FBI is all about bullet penetration since 198x Miami gunfight.

I also ignore all energy figures. Math has created a problem no one is addressing. You get A number, period. That is how math works. So what does that number mean? All bullet styles get the same number in their caliber and weight yet can have vastly different performance in flesh. What do the differences in the numbers mean between the calibers? I propose that there is a line on a graph that says: to the left is inadequate and to the right of the line is adequate. More in not always either better or more effective on humanity. Too many variables. You are taking something hard and sticking into something squishy ( I know that sounds...)the human body, that can be vastly different physically and emotionally etc.
All calibers have success and all calibers have failures. The stories from the war and streets all have both truth and misinformation or are flat out wrong sometimes. Many police depts. report success and satisfaction with 9mm and some go so far as to say they cannot see any difference in the street performance between the different rounds.
"Old technology" bullets still show up pretty good in gel tests as they did on the streets. The same performance level wasn't always seen as the same with depts. across the country.

I've been reading and studying the "reports" on bullets performance for a long time now and I noticed the results are the same no matter who did the study. The 9mm is only 5% behind the best (read 45, 357 mag etc.) according to the authors. Is that supposed 5% significant? I don't think so as all studies have an error factor automatically built in.

What you shoot the best is what you should carry with the good ammo (you have to decide what that is) that you are comfortable with.

My joints don't like anything bigger than 9mm/.38 special for regular shooting anymore. I am very comfortable with either and that is what I carry. Plus, I agree with brucev above.

Last edited by Remmark54; 04-21-2017 at 09:21 AM.
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  #54  
Old 04-21-2017, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Remmark54 View Post
The 9mm is only 5% behind the best (read 45, 357 mag etc.) according to the authors. Is that supposed 5% significant? I don't think so as all studies have an error factor automatically built in.

What you shoot the best is what you should carry with the good ammo (you have to decide what that is) that you are comfortable with.

My joints don't like anything bigger than 9mm/.38 special for regular shooting anymore. I am very comfortable with either and that is what I carry.
This.
You choose the biggest/most powerful caliber that you can use in a handgun that you'll carry and you go with it.

That being said, that 5% just might be what gives the .45 auto its reputation, which is not only a matter of hearsay and word of mouth at the gun store counter, but is recorded in the annals of history. That means something, at least to me.

And while I'm totally comfortable on those days I just have an itty bitty pocket pistol(after all, a .380 or a .38, and these days, a small 9mm on your person, which IMHO is totally awesome just how small they've gotten, beats a bigger gun in the safe every time), if I were going somewhere where I knew there was alot of problem type stuff going on(this is a massive rarity in my life), you'd better believe that my snubnose revolver or my p3at would be riding as backup to my .45.
If it comes to handguns in a hot zone, I'll take that 5% and run with it.
(And take a backup or two just in case the odds don't run in my favor.)

YMMV.

Last edited by BoogersXDm; 04-21-2017 at 02:39 PM.
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  #55  
Old 04-21-2017, 04:59 PM
jupiter1 jupiter1 is offline
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Originally Posted by BoogersXDm View Post
They had to take the new (for the time) DA .38 colts out and re-issue SAA revolvers. In .45 LC. By all accounts, this DID perform better in that theater.
I have read the same thing. What is missing are the actual accounts of the replacement .45 's successes against the Moros. The story dead ends at that point.

I suspect that the issuance of the .45 was deemed the solution and that there was no point in complaining about any continuing inadequacies of handguns vs. Moros. The .45 inch bullet was the largest that could be incorporated into a practical revolver design. The troops got their .45 and could no longer complain about caliber no matter what the actual result.
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  #56  
Old 04-21-2017, 05:27 PM
Scott in NCal Scott in NCal is offline
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Speaking as a retired first responder EMT that spent years working in and around Richmond California, I have come to believe anyone that thinks hardball 9mm is not a reliable manstoper should spend more time around actually shootings or in a trama center. I'm just saying.
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  #57  
Old 04-21-2017, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jupiter1 View Post
I have read the same thing. What is missing are the actual accounts of the replacement .45 's successes against the Moros. The story dead ends at that point.
Not exactly.

"It is thought the .45 caliber revolver [meaning the Constabulary Model 1902 ] is the one which should be issued to troops throughout the Army. Instances have repeatedly been reported during the past year where natives have been shot through and through several times with a .38 caliber revolver, and have come on, cutting up the unfortunate individual armed with it. The .45 caliber revolver stops a man in his tracks, usually knocking him down. It is [also] recommended that each company serving in this department be furnished with four 12-gauge Winchester, repeating shotguns. For outpost duty and advance guard [walking point] there is no weapon in our possession equal to the shotgun loaded with buckshot."
-General Leonard Wood, source.

I'm sure I can find other such reports but if I must it'll have to wait until I have time to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott in NCal View Post
Speaking as a retired first responder EMT that spent years working in and around Richmond California, I have come to believe anyone that thinks hardball 9mm is not a reliable manstoper should spend more time around actually shootings or in a trama center. I'm just saying.
"The Luger automatic pistol as a hunting pistol and for dress occasions is attractive and useful. I have one which I prize highly, but for field service, in the hands of officers and men, it is a failure. It is too complicated, and cartridges often jam, but the main defect is that the bullet will not stop a Moro."
-Brigadier General Samuel S. Sumner, commenting on the trial issue of the 9mm Luger in theater during the Philippine Insurrections
(sorry its the same source I've been using, but if I need to find more to satisfy anyone here I will).

I like my 9mm too. It has its uses.
I may be mistaken, but, in California, where you reside, does the LAPD SWAT not still issue a 1911 chambered in .45( I know they used to?), and does the SIS not use a specialized version made just for them of the Glock 30, chambered in .45 auto?

The idea I'm trying to get across here is that yeah, the 9mm will get the job done, but what it can do, bigger and more powerful calibers can do better(even if marginally so). Even with "today's modern ammo".
This (even perhaps marginal) advantage stipulates that the 9mm is not the "equal" of the .45 auto, nor the "better cartridge" overall, and having the advantage of a bigger, harder hitting caliber is still worth it to some folks.

9mm is the perfect balance of power and controllability, but like with all handguns, there are compromises and with the 9mm, the compromises which achieve such mean the round is not going to be as hard hitting(even if marginally) then a round that admittedly recoils more. Its physics. And, there are still benefits in the opinion of others to being able to handle bigger calibers- even if those benefits are marginal and difficult to quantify beyond historical anecdotes and the preference of those who choose them.

And ultimately, its not even really about caliber, its about the person on the trigger, so....... if you can put the bullet where it needs to be is really all that matters.

Last edited by BoogersXDm; 04-21-2017 at 10:50 PM.
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  #58  
Old 04-22-2017, 10:01 AM
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But I can put three 9mm shots on target. In that same time I can only manage one 40S&W and one 45ACP.
And yes I used similar size and type of gun. All Glock rentals, the 9mm and 40S&W were compact (19 and 23) the 45 was the full size model.
Just my personal experience. I'll stick with 9mm because the recoil is less and I can get more lead on the target.
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  #59  
Old 04-22-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BoogersXDm View Post
Not exactly.

"It is thought the .45 caliber revolver [meaning the Constabulary Model 1902 ] is the one which should be issued to troops throughout the Army. Instances have repeatedly been reported during the past year where natives have been shot through and through several times with a .38 caliber revolver, and have come on, cutting up the unfortunate individual armed with it. The .45 caliber revolver stops a man in his tracks, usually knocking him down.
Most likely a statement based on anecdotes. Through the laws of physics, we know that no handgun bullet can knock a man down.

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Originally Posted by BoogersXDm View Post
Its physics. And, there are still benefits in the opinion of others to being able to handle bigger calibers- even if those benefits are marginal and difficult to quantify beyond historical anecdotes and the preference of those who choose them.
That may be true but it is just about impossible to measure the differences in incapacitation effects between calibers. The best course of action is to go with what makes you comfortable.

There are numerous accounts of weapons failures against fanatical Moros. These failures included handguns and rifles. There were large caliber handgun failures too.

Here is an excerpt from an article by Jack Lott that was featured in the Guns&Ammo 1973 Annual:

"Among the great pirate leaders was the remarkable Jikiri, the Samal pirate who commenced operations in the year 1907 and then cut a bloody swath for two subsequent years. Jikiri was the object of taunts as a youth because of mismatched eyes.Taller than most Moros, who are typically short and sinewy, Jikiri had an Acquiline nose and broad shoulders-perhaps indicated Arab blood.As he told Jammang, one of he henchmen, "The strength of my kris arm will comfort the women who now shun me.

After a lightening succession of raids by Jikiri and his corsairs, the U.S. Government put up rewards totaling 4000 pesos for Jikiri dead or alive. Triple guards were put on army posts when Jikiri replied to the reward announcement by saying he would run "juramentado" in the streets of Jolo on the first of September, but not until he had cut down a special list of 100 men. Jikiri told the army to maintain a triple guard. To combat the growing menace the government permanently assigned undercover officer Captain De Witt to Jikiri's case. Jikiri had so demoralized the pearl fishermen that they shunned the sea and then he turned his attention to British North Borneo. The British quickly took the field against the raiders and a force of constabulary captured three of his men, placed them under guard of three soldiers in their vinta, or sailboat, and towed it by steam launch. When well out of port the captain of the launch heard a shout aft in the vinta and turned to see one of the Moros lop the head off a guard. The rest of the men in the vinta, both guards and pirates, jumped in the water. The assailant then took the line attached to the launch and pulled the vinta toward the launch. The Moro leaped on board the launch and headed toward the captain who pulled his .455 Webley service revolver putting three shots into the Moro who dropped at the third shot and then rose as if unaffected to pursue the officer across the deck. The captain then fired his three remaining shots into the pirate again dropping him to the deck. But again the nerveless Moro rose and charged the now horrified officer standing with an empty Webley in his hand and facing a seemingly phantom Moro with a large kris. The captain turned to grab his rifle as the Moro delivered a terrific blow to the side of his head and then turned his attention to the Chinese engineer. While the Moro was intently engaged in chopping the unfortunate Chinese into chop suey the captain recovered enough to fire five .303 slugs into the Moro who finally fell dead. Jikiri roused not only the British and American authorities but the Moro authorities as well and every man's hand was turned against him and his krismen."


Why the .38 was singled out for condemnation beats me. Perhaps it was the prejudice of many years of criticism by the .45 advocates. I find it hard to believe that .094 inch difference in bullet diameter would have been noticed by these fanatical warriors.
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  #60  
Old 04-22-2017, 10:36 PM
Scott in NCal Scott in NCal is offline
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[QUOTE=BoogersXDm;139564444]Not exactly.

/legend%20of%20.45.htm"]source[/URL].




"The Luger automatic pistol as a hunting pistol and for dress occasions is attractive and useful. I have one which I prize highly, but for field service, in the hands of officers and men, it is a failure. It is too complicated, and cartridges often jam, but the main defect is that the bullet will not stop a Moro."
-Brigadier General Samuel S. Sumner, commenting on the trial issue of the 9mm Luger in theater during the Philippine Insurrections
(sorry its the same source I've been using, but if I need to find more to satisfy anyone here I will).

I like my 9mm too. It has its uses.
I may be mistaken, but, in California, where you reside, does the LAPD SWAT not still issue a 1911 chambered in .45( I know they used to?),


This is getting interesting,I will start with the second part. As per Gen Sumner "it is to complicated and jams often, but the main defect is that the bullet will not stop a Moro" . Even before the Glock 17 we were well on the way 100% reliable guns. Now it seems you have to go out of your way to find a unreliable pistol. I could be wrong on the dates but it seems the P08 im 9mm was introduced in 1904 for the German Army. The Moro uprising was over in 1913. In that 9 years was it possiblle that the US Army took possesssion of any significient number of 9mm lugers, and distributed them to a war in the Phillipines ? Perhaps, seems unlikely though and the Luger collector groups don't mention it. The US did though, in 1900, recieve 1000 7.65 Luger pistols for trial. Could that be what Gen. Sumner was talking about ? Now the first part, The good General reported "the Luger automatic pistol as a hunting pistol and for dress occasssions is attractive and useful". I left the Army in 1984 and seriuously doubt that and of my seniors would have considered me dressed with a Luger attractive, or usefull. I also have to wonder what it was that Gen Sumner hunted with his Luger. Richmond is near San Francisco, hundreds of miles form LA. I dont know what the swat team uses. Around here it is mostly 40 S&W the police use. Not sure what SIS is.

The 45 may hit harder, but is it any better. The 9mm goes faster, in real close contest maby the extra 200 fps will get your bullet on target sooner, saving the day, maby, it is possible. Maby the extra velocity of the 9mm will induce hydrostatic shock, I won't say it can't happen. Penetration, probably the 9mm has the upper hand, maby. Capicity goes to the 9mm, (except here in the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia, as well as for my comrads in New York, New Jursey ect. 25 ACP and 45 ACP have the same capicity) but how often is that really useful ? One thing for sure, 9mm costs less, a real advantage when your as cheap as I am. Plus follow up shots are easier for most. I am not even taking sides in the 9mm/40/45 debate. Richmond, at that time, had one of the highest murder rates in the country. Rarely would a day go without a shooting or a week without a murder, (gangs, drugs) almost always a 9mm was used. ( when they could be identified first it was P series Rugers and later Glocks, almost always hardball ammo, apparently even gangsters have to watch the bottom line ). Next shotguns than 22's. What I saw indicated to me, was that one good hit from a 9mm was completely up to the task of putting a guy down, (fresh off the prison yard, buffed , drugged up tough guys). Maby the 45 is better.
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  #61  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:59 AM
jupiter1 jupiter1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Scott in NCal View Post
I could be wrong on the dates but it seems the P08 im 9mm was introduced in 1904 for the German Army. The Moro uprising was over in 1913. In that 9 years was it possiblle that the US Army took possesssion of any significient number of 9mm lugers, and distributed them to a war in the Phillipines ? Perhaps, seems unlikely though and the Luger collector groups don't mention it. The US did though, in 1900, recieve 1000 7.65 Luger pistols for trial. Could that be what Gen. Sumner was talking about ?
You are right about the 7.65 Luger. That statement was from a June 1903 Annual Report. The 9mm cartridge did not exist at that time......

"Somewhat enamored by then with German weapons, the Bureau procured 2,000 new, technologically-advanced, 9mm German Luger semi-automatic pistols and shipped them to the Philippines. However, as noted with some sarcasm in the June, 1903 Annual Report of Brigadier General Samuel S. Sumner, commander of the Department of Mindanao and Sulu,

The Luger automatic pistol as a hunting pistol and for dress occasions is attractive and useful. I have one which I prize highly, but for field service, in the hands of officers and men, it is a failure. It is too complicated, and cartridges often jam, but the main defect is that the bullet will not stop a Moro."
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  #62  
Old 04-23-2017, 01:18 AM
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Short response~~Personal Choice.
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Old 04-23-2017, 02:12 AM
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There are a LOT of calibers more potent than 45/70 that have smaller casings. But then again it looks big so it has to be more powerful right?
Have you ever seen what a modern .45-70 cartridge will do to a gelatin block? A factory Winchester .45-70 cartridge with a 300 grain hollow point fired from a Browning Model 1886 rifle: the bullet went all the way through and the damage it made to the gelatin block came close to splitting it in half. I am a big fan of the modern .45-70 cartridge, and I would not want to be shot with one.
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:59 AM
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Have you ever seen what a modern .45-70 cartridge will do to a gelatin block? A factory Winchester .45-70 cartridge with a 300 grain hollow point fired from a Browning Model 1886 rifle: the bullet went all the way through and the damage it made to the gelatin block came close to splitting it in half. I am a big fan of the modern .45-70 cartridge, and I would not want to be shot with one.
Same can be said about any of the calibers in the class.

Shooting one gelatin block with a 45/70 is pointless
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:05 AM
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Same can be said about any of the calibers in the class.

Shooting one gelatin block with a 45/70 is pointless
I'll just figure you've never shot a 45/70 and let it go at that. It's kind of a favorite for many. Still a lot more fun, than that teeny 9mm!
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:27 PM
Scott in NCal Scott in NCal is offline
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Finally something I think we all agree on; whatever Knock Down Power is, a 45-70 has more of it than a 9mm . The problem I am having is getting an inside the waistband holster holster to fit my Marlin 1895. When I do though I will be ready for those Moro's
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:10 PM
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Finally something I think we all agree on; whatever Knock Down Power is, a 45-70 has more of it than a 9mm . The problem I am having is getting an inside the waistband holster holster to fit my Marlin 1895. When I do though I will be ready for those Moro's
I've been working on that too. At least it's the shorter 18.5" barrel, instead of the 26.
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Old 04-28-2017, 09:33 PM
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I get by with my 9 and 40. 9x25 Dillon and 10mm.
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Old 04-29-2017, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee's Landing Billy View Post
Placement and penetration....repeat 1,000 times.
This. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary.

All handguns are relatively poor 'stoppers' regardless of caliber or bullet used.

Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop a determined and aggressive BG is shutting down the brain due to oxygen deprivation caused by blood loss. Even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds worth of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to plant daisies in your hair.

Show me a caliber/bullet that can alter the outcome of the encounter in my favor (ie: incapacitate the BG due to blood loss *before* he can inflict serious/lethal damage) significantly better than any other caliber/bullet and I'll start carrying it tomorrow. Otherwise, it doesn't matter if 'bullet X' causes the BG to expire in the ambulance while 'bullet Y' causes him to expire in the ER.

All that matters is stopping the attack before he can inflict serious/lethal damage, anything else is irrelevant.

I doubt a determined & aggressive BG could tell the difference if shot w/any quality .38/9mm/.40/.357/.45 SD rd.

With all that being said, I carry 9mm as the best combination of controllability, capacity & terminal effectiveness.

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Old 05-03-2017, 11:36 AM
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One gentleman likes small..........


James....

James Bond.

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  #71  
Old 05-03-2017, 11:50 AM
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That's a beaut.
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAA View Post
I'll just figure you've never shot a 45/70 and let it go at that. It's kind of a favorite for many. Still a lot more fun, than that teeny 9mm!
So if I go shoot one it will make it more powerful?

Same argument would make 38 special far more powerful than 9mm
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  #73  
Old 05-07-2017, 01:19 PM
jupiter1 jupiter1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomac View Post
This. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary.

All handguns are relatively poor 'stoppers' regardless of caliber or bullet used.
I avoid calling handgun rounds 'poor stoppers' 'weak' 'wimpy' 'inadequate' etc. Anything that has the ability push a relatively dull piece of metal (as compared to a sharp blade) through a human body gets my respect.

Handgun rounds are what they are. They must work reasonably well or no one would bother with handguns.
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  #74  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:57 PM
IAhunter IAhunter is offline
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Somebody needs to remind the FBI that the "modern bullet technology" they are referring to also applies to .357, .40, and .45 bullets. They are all improved with "todays modern ammo".

This is yet another example of a government agency not being good stewards of taxpayer dollars. Last I checked, FBI experimentation with the 10mm, based upon 9mm failures in shootings, led to development of the 40 S&W. I predict they will switch to 9mm, then determine they need a larger caliber or more powerful cartridge again.

The long game is TO JUSTIFY THE EXISTENCE OF THEIR PERSONNEL ASSIGNED TO THEIR FIREARMS UNIT ON A FULL TIME BASIS. This nonsense is never ending within the federal government.

Just my .02.
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Old 05-09-2017, 09:52 AM
crazyphil crazyphil is offline
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After all is said and done it seems like there is a lot more said than done.
Real stopping power on the streets has shown vertually no difference in
big and slow or smaller and faster ie .45 vs .357. .40 maybe a fraction
better. Most carry .38 Spl. or 9MM not for effectiveness, but for
practicallity. The best one is the one you shoot the best.
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  #76  
Old 05-09-2017, 10:00 AM
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I carry .380 in my pocket guns around the farm, sometimes a .38 spl. When I leave my property, however, I carry a .45 and always will.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:30 PM
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For people who like visuals, here's Luck Gunners self defense ammo ballistics tests in all your favorite calibers with just about any factory load you can imagine.
What does it all mean? You be the judge, I just found it pretty interesting.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/
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  #78  
Old 05-11-2017, 01:13 PM
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diegobxr diegobxr is offline
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That teeny .45 doesn't cut it for me.

12 GA slugs or nothing.
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