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Old 04-19-2017, 10:53 PM
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Default With Todays Modern Ammo...............

Please allow me to preface this posting that I do not purport to be an expect on ammo ballistics. But I am informed and observant to the obvious.
I keep hearing and reading: "That with todays ammo, 9mm ammo is just as effective as .40 cal and .45 ACP" because the FBI says so. Really, the FBI? A bastion of credibility? Again, REALLY?
If a LIE is said often enough and long enough, I guess it becomes true?
IMHO; the FBI came up with this justification in a politically correct report because woman and small men could not qualify with the .40 cal, and this was an easy out. Even if one knew nothing about ammo or ballistics, line the 3 cartridge up side by side and say with a straight face that they are "All have the same effectiveness". It is said that "todays bullet technology" makes the 9mm equal in performance to .40's and .45's, but that same technology advanced .40's and .45 ACP performance as well. Didn't it?
I for one, just don't believe this FBI report, and believe it's a LIE to fit a narrative under a certain devious and decepive political administration.
I keep reading this LIE over and over on this forum, (and others) and by many posters that have a LEO badge as an identifier. I would think that they would know better and not fall for the LIE? I cringe every-time I read a post that repeats this LIE. How can so many be so guidable? All one has to do is review history, gun battles, and the results. It was not to long ago, that the 9mm was deemed to an ineffective performer based on many shootouts, but now it's the KING because the FBI said so and "modern bullet technology"? COME ON! I am not getting sucked in.
Long live the .40 cal, .45 ACP and .357 Sig.
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Old 04-19-2017, 10:59 PM
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Oh;
You are one of those, BIGGER is better guys.............

and have a battery on your shoulder !

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Old 04-19-2017, 11:12 PM
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The .357sig is a 9mm, it's just going 150 fps faster. Big whoop.
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:24 PM
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Colonel,

If you had access to the earliest articles about the decision of the FBI to revert to the 9mm you would discover that the excuses of women having a hard time qualifying with the .40 S&W are just that, BS Excuses! The real reason often cited was cost of ammunition and firearms maintenance. In short, MONEY! Ammunition effectiveness had nothing to do with it.
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
Long live the .40 cal, .45 ACP and .357 Sig.
I do agree with you that modern bullet technology has advanced ALL bullets, and due to this the larger calibers will still perform better when compared to same design smaller caliber bullets.

However, your "long live" comment gave me quite the chuckle. You do realize that besides 45ACP, the other two could still be considered "infants" compared to all the other calibers that have been being used successfully for the past 100+ years.

I like to take the middle of the road and go with good old 357mag. In a defense situation, more isn't always better. If not 357mag, then either 38spl or 9mm, and yes, because better bullet technology makes them more effective. I will not argue that they are better ballistics wise compared to larger calibers, as I don't consider that pertinent. Getting the job done is pertinent, and I'm confident they will.

Trying to argue caliber is useless, and getting worked up over someone else's viewpoints on them is too. Everyone has their own favorites. I just worry about myself. It sounds like you have your favorites, so why worry about someone else's opinions.
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Old 04-20-2017, 12:04 AM
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I think someone concluded a long time ago that bullet placement and determination were possibly the two most important factors in gunfight survival. Don't recall exactly who that was...

Of course, if you happen to have a 12 gauge in your pocket, all bets are off!
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Old 04-20-2017, 02:55 AM
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I think someone concluded a long time ago that bullet placement and determination were possibly the two most important factors in gunfight survival. Don't recall exactly who that was...
That's the bottom line. I quit believing that there is a measureable difference in 'effectiveness' of service handgun cartridges. In 100 plus years, no science has been produced that settles the argument. All we have are unreliable anecdotes. Other than their physical dimensions, they are all basically low powered cartridges. They are not 100% problem solvers. One should be prepared for unexpected results.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:14 AM
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As an agency the FBI has probably changed "official handguns" more times than any agency i know of. Back a few years ago the American Rifleman Magazine listed all of them and my head was spinning! I don't remember the exact count, but it was a LOT!

I suppose there are many reasons like female agents with smaller hands and frames. Less practice time on the Ranges these days, less instruction, more and faster ballistic advancements, dress code changes, etc all contribute to the many changes too. I would imagine Politics and who is heading up the Agency also has something to add into the mix.

The bottom line is that they don;t have the same "budget restrictions" that local LE Agencys have to contend with and they usually get the Gov't to cut the check, whereas local LE Agency's probably need more and better justification for spending more of the taxpayers hard earned money.
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Old 04-20-2017, 06:33 AM
Lee's Landing Billy Lee's Landing Billy is offline
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Placement and penetration....repeat 1,000 times.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:10 AM
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Default I never expect it to surpass....

I never expected it to top certain calibers, but improvements in bullet design does make formerly feeble rounds into more potent and reliable weapon, often in a smaller package. Some of the newer powders add to performance.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:20 AM
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Sorry but you put zero thought in your post and it sounds like it was written by a first grader who didn't get what they wanted at the store.

Go watch ballistics tests over and over, especially with Federals HST loading. Does 45 expand wider than 40? Well yeah. Does 40 expand wider than 9? Well yeah. But the difference in expansion and penetration is so minimal that the benefits of carrying less ammo or a larger firearm negate the benefits of 40 and 45. That and the softer recoil allows ANY shooter, even experienced, faster follow up shots.

I own firearms in 9, 40, and 45 and see the benefits of all but I still choose 9mm to carry. Federal HST is the equalizer when it comes to hollow points
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Old 04-20-2017, 08:53 AM
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Lining up cartridges is quite scientific. I mean 38 and 357 are almost identical in size so they must have almost identical performance?
32 long Colt has more case capacity and almost the same size as the 9mm so it must be just as effective if not more.
Makes sense! Why are we using 7.62NATO or even 3006? When you line it up against a 45-70 you can clearly see the superiority of the 45-70.

Yes REALLY! The story of little women and small men is just that.....A story. The size of the guns in 9 and 40 are the same.

Yes their effectiveness is about the same. The object being shot can't tell the difference between 350ft-lbs and 420ft-lbs.

Take Federal HST. A popular and excellent performance ammunition. ENERGY
Muzzle​. 25 Y
9mm 364 330
40sw 408. 384
45acp 404. 389

The energy transfer and damage to the body is about the same. No one is going to tell a difference in 50fps.


Looking at things and making assumptions is definitely more scientific then research!
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Old 04-20-2017, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
It is said that "todays bullet technology" makes the 9mm equal in performance to .40's and .45's, but that same technology advanced .40's and .45 ACP performance as well. Didn't it?

Please - no more telephone calls - we have a winner!
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Old 04-20-2017, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
Please allow me to preface this posting that I do not purport to be an expect on ammo ballistics. But I am informed and observant to the obvious.
I keep hearing and reading: "That with todays ammo, 9mm ammo is just as effective as .40 cal and .45 ACP" because the FBI says so. Really, the FBI? A bastion of credibility? Again, REALLY?
If a LIE is said often enough and long enough, I guess it becomes true?
IMHO; the FBI came up with this justification in a politically correct report because woman and small men could not qualify with the .40 cal, and this was an easy out. Even if one knew nothing about ammo or ballistics, line the 3 cartridge up side by side and say with a straight face that they are "All have the same effectiveness". It is said that "todays bullet technology" makes the 9mm equal in performance to .40's and .45's, but that same technology advanced .40's and .45 ACP performance as well. Didn't it?
I for one, just don't believe this FBI report, and believe it's a LIE to fit a narrative under a certain devious and decepive political administration.
I keep reading this LIE over and over on this forum, (and others) and by many posters that have a LEO badge as an identifier. I would think that they would know better and not fall for the LIE? I cringe every-time I read a post that repeats this LIE. How can so many be so guidable? All one has to do is review history, gun battles, and the results. It was not to long ago, that the 9mm was deemed to an ineffective performer based on many shootouts, but now it's the KING because the FBI said so and "modern bullet technology"? COME ON! I am not getting sucked in.
Long live the .40 cal, .45 ACP and .357 Sig.
I've got to agree with you on this. Yes, today's technology made the 9 much better than it was. However, ammo manufacturers are not fools. They put that same tech into the 40, 45 and other calibers. So everyone is happy. Except the FBI of course. To be politically correct they went back to the 9. After what happened with Comey in the last year, I have very little faith in the FBI. That being said, I own several handguns and none of them are 9s. I'm not knocking them, but why would I carry a 9 when I can carry a 40, or 45? I'm a retired LEO and FBI (when they had a better rep) trained and certified firearms instructor and SWAT. If i I ran a PD they would most likely be carrying a 45 or maybe a 40. Just my opinion on the subject, so please, all of you 9 lovers out there, don't get insulted. There is nothing wrong with a 9, I would just rather carry a 45.
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:33 PM
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From what I've seen, modern 9mm, .40, and .45acp do similar stuff in the flesh stimulant gel.

I think where you'll see a measurable difference when you compare those 3 service calibers with full power .357 magnum, .41 and .44 magnum.

A 158 gr. 357 magnum going 1,400 ft/s cannot be touched by 9 or 40. A 210 gr. 41 magnum doing an honest 1,300 ft/s is another world compared to 9, 40 or 45.

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Old 04-20-2017, 03:45 PM
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Old line........

"It's not how big your bullet is....... it's where you place it!"
Or something like that.......



I had plenty of 9mm and .45s when the .40 "Short & Weak" was introduced.......... then we got the .357 Sig an inbred 9/40 offspring........


hooo.... hummmmmmmmm.................. still have plenty of 9mm and .45s.


"move along nothing to see here!!!!!!"

They are all minor caliber when compared to a 5.56, .308 or even themselves; out of a carbine length barrel !!!!!



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Old 04-20-2017, 04:34 PM
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You have to think too, more and more people (myself included) are carrying smaller, shorter barrel guns now. And many of these expanding ammo do not expand fully or at all due to terminal velocity not being reached. So yeah, there could very well be one type of 9mm that does expand well, and beyond what another brand of .45 might expand. So, actually there could be some 9 and .40 that perform better than a lot of 45, since it is usually a little slower. But it does punch a bigger hole in the paper, and that's really all about 99% of ever will see as proof.


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Old 04-20-2017, 04:38 PM
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Bullet tech has made the 9mm very viable as a SD round. The same as a 40 or 45, no, but close enough to not be afraid to carry 9mm. I am a 45 guy, but the more I shoot 9mm in competition the more I see the benefit of landing more hits, more accurately & in shorter time frame. Not giving up my 1911 anytime soon, but don't mind carrying my G26 either with good JHP.
Since I live in a 10+1 state, I am not giving up much if anything to larger calibers. I tend to let the platform dictate the caliber & use good JHP ammo. If I were stuck in say NJ with no JHP, then 45 LRN or better, LFP would be my choice all day, regardless of capacity.
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Old 04-20-2017, 05:04 PM
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Dead is dead. Dead with a 9mm=dead with a .45. Thats all the farther that scale goes. 9mm is about 30% cheaper to buy than .45 at my local sources, which means I can shoot it more for the same dollars. Placement means more than size, and practice means better placement. That makes 9mm better, for me. YMMV, but I get two more rounds in my 9mm than the same gun in .45 before reloading, I have a 9mm so .45 means nothing to me.
It takes about 80 ft/lbs of energy to kill a human. Both 9 and .45 shoot at over 300 ft/lbs, Both are pistols. If you have serious concerns, you need a rifle or shotgun with slugs, and even there, a miss is a miss.
If you have serious concerns, you can get a 45-70 single action revolver. Lots of foot-pounds of energy but the wheels or tripod are extra

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Old 04-20-2017, 05:12 PM
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Won't none of 'em do the job if they don't hit the target at all or in the right place! If all theses changes were not made because of money issues, then tell me why qualifictions are down to one a year plus fewer rounds fired in the one? I don't disagree that some loads are better than others. But any load that will do the job is good enough if the shooter is good enough to put it where it needs to go. The best load/caliber is worthless if the best you can do with it is mostly miss!!
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Old 04-20-2017, 05:45 PM
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Shoot / Carry / Buy whatever you want. Unless you’re an FBI agent I'm not really sure how it's relevant to any decision you will have to
make.

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Old 04-20-2017, 06:02 PM
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Colonel,

I liked your post, and its attitude was called for, but, in the end, the differences among cartridges is overrated, particularly among those with reasonable penetration. Even the other factors (women's hands are too small for that gun, and even some men's) are not irrelevant.

After 4-5 oz of Evan Williams, I pronounce the modern 9mm adequate, sort of.
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Old 04-20-2017, 06:33 PM
Brasso4 Brasso4 is offline
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All decent handgun rounds from 9mm to .45acp will penetrate 12-15". They all expand from about .60 to .75 inches.

Basically, they're identical.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:04 PM
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I'd like to make the observation that the only information you are giving, other than your self admission that you are not an expert, is what appears to be an opinion shrouded in a conspiracy theory.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:15 PM
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What Brasso4 said. When i was in my departments ordnance unit we had an ammo rep from a major manufacturer put on a demonstration. We fired all the major brands into gelatin using the FBI protocols. All the ammo penetrated about the same depth and expanded to approximately the same size. The Rep thought this was cool. I asked him why would an agency pick one caliber over another if the ammo performance was similar. He stammered a second but he offered no real answer. FWIW, I want ammo that maximizes performance in that particular caliber. I don't want a 45 round that penetrates the same as a 9mm. I want a 45 load that gets the most out of a 45. If the performance is maximized for the particular caliber, then i would pick the biggest one i could handle.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:28 PM
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I'd like to make the observation that the only information you are giving, other than your self admission that you are not an expert, is what appears to be an opinion shrouded in a conspiracy theory.
Colonel is not pretending to give information. Most of us have quite a bit of information on the subject. He is giving an opinion, one which most of us know is well supported by the known facts. Of course, it is not the only possible interpretation, or even the only believable one. You choose yours. He chose his.

I'm not sure how one defines a conspiracy theory as opposed to noting that a large federal agency spent a lot of money going from 9 to 10 to 40 to 9, each time with what it considered full justification, while the facts, whatever they are, of cartridge performance didn't change quite as much.

You can hold a differing opinion without trashing everyone else's.
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Old 04-20-2017, 08:00 PM
Vulcannut Vulcannut is offline
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I wouldn't want to get hit with any round. I don't get pulled into what round is better argument. They all will do the job if the job is done right.

This being said I enjoy shooting 40s&w as much 9mm's. Don't have a 45 yet..... but soon.

Also I hope people flood the market with .40 S&W trade in. I'll buy them up.
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Old 04-20-2017, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Model520Fan View Post
Colonel is not pretending to give information. Most of us have quite a bit of information on the subject. He is giving an opinion, one which most of us know is well supported by the known facts. Of course, it is not the only possible interpretation, or even the only believable one. You choose yours. He chose his.

I'm not sure how one defines a conspiracy theory as opposed to noting that a large federal agency spent a lot of money going from 9 to 10 to 40 to 9, each time with what it considered full justification, while the facts, whatever they are, of cartridge performance didn't change quite as much.

You can hold a differing opinion without trashing everyone else's.
The word "LIE" in all caps just kinda jumped out at me. Is it possible that they could just be wrong...without lying?
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Old 04-20-2017, 08:28 PM
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I wonder what is all this new bullets and new scientific technology that the experts keep ranting and raving about. There have always been all kinds of bullet shapes ( round nose, flat nose, hollow points, etc.). Soft lead deforms easier than hard lead and that has always been fact.
The new technology and scientific break through is nothing but good advertising.
The FBI does a lot of changing guns and bullets and that leads me to believe they don't know what is best or what they want. Larry
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Old 04-20-2017, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Brasky View Post
Sorry but you put zero thought in your post and it sounds like it was written by a first grader who didn't get what they wanted at the store.

Go watch ballistics tests over and over, especially with Federals HST loading. Does 45 expand wider than 40? Well yeah. Does 40 expand wider than 9? Well yeah. But the difference in expansion and penetration is so minimal that the benefits of carrying less ammo or a larger firearm negate the benefits of 40 and 45. That and the softer recoil allows ANY shooter, even experienced, faster follow up shots.

I own firearms in 9, 40, and 45 and see the benefits of all but I still choose 9mm to carry. Federal HST is the equalizer when it comes to hollow points
I'm sorry too, 'cause 9mm is just too wimpy. I just separated a bunch of 9mm cases from a coffee can that included some 45/70's. Made 'um look even wimpier! And we all know that a Shield 45 will put more bullets towards the bulls eye as the target extends to 25 yrds, than that wimpy "nine ever could". Besides, the 45 recoil & follow up of a 45 Shield is a nothing event, except for perhaps the smallest of hands. There, at least I feel better, even though, we still keep a few 9's around here. For me, 1st grade was about 60 years ago.

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Old 04-20-2017, 08:32 PM
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Will todays modern magic bullets find the vitals for me, or do I still have to do that myself?

Thats all that really counts.

Placement, penetration, and what you hit- "wound track".

If you can do that better with a .32 loaded with ball, then with a .45 loaded with the most modern, expensive +p bullet, I'd say stick to the .32.

As for bullet technology being so advanced over the past decade, I just posted a link to a test where it appeared that some of the older designs still held their own with some of the newest- and in some cases, even bested them.

Pick your caliber and your weapon based on what you shoot well, what you are comfortable with, and what you will actually carry, pick your ammo based on what feeds (reliability is more important then magic bullets) in that pistol primarily, then choose what looks best to you in whatever tests you find relevant. Just make sure its reliable. Did I mention that reliability needs to be the first consideration past your ability to actually shoot the weapon here?

It doesn't matter what the FBI says to we private citizens- their guidelines can be treated as suggestions at most by us. Among other things, the FBI has to deal with standardization of a service weapon type and caliber to meet budget constraints and, yes, an "increasingly diverse" population of people in their employ. (Marvelous.....)

I can see why they might not want to run a cartridge as hot as the .40 can be in 9mm sized guns, especially the compacts, based on those things.

But if you like .40, you have a gun that you shoot well chambered for it, then, whatever.

Personally, I like the .45 Auto, in a high capacity striker fired format, but I'll carry a little gun chambered for a lesser cartridge.......... I always have my P3AT, and its loaded with ball. Sometimes its a backup to my XDm .45, but alot of times its my primary.

A .380 FMJ -will- get the job DONE, if you do your part.

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Old 04-20-2017, 08:56 PM
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Assuming the ammo in question is reliable in your gun, shot placement is most important, followed by adequate penetration. Most of the good quality self defense ammo, like HST, expands in real world shootings pretty well.

Did .40 and .45 ammo improve alongside 9mm? Yes, but not to the same degree. It's a case of diminishing returns. Real world shootings and gel results show pretty much the same performance across the board. And it's not just the FBI saying that. That's aside from the fact that regardless of skill level, most people will shoot the 9mm faster with better accuracy than .40, .45, or .357 Sig. Plus less wear and tear on guns. Plus less expensive ammo.

If you want to carry bigger bullets, fine. That's your choice. But there isn't really any need, unless you just happen to like that caliber and/or a particular type of gun.
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Old 04-20-2017, 09:28 PM
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I don't know about everyone else, but as the target increases to 25 yrds, my 45's always hit more accurate than the 9mms. 7-15 yrds, it's a toss up. My best 7 yrd, was with a 9mm Glock 43.

The 45 Shield re-coil isn't much more than the 9mm Shield. I'm just not much of a 40's fan, even though I have a S&W 40 CORE

I much prefer carrying the 45 Shield, because it IS what I like. Since I reload, it doesn't make much difference cost wise.
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Old 04-20-2017, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post

That's aside from the fact that regardless of skill level, most people will shoot the 9mm faster with better accuracy than .40, .45, or .357 Sig. Plus less wear and tear on guns. Plus less expensive ammo.
OK, agreed. Just one bone of contention-

.45 auto is a low pressure cartridge that doesn't wear guns nearly as much as the higher pressure .40 that earlier, manufacturers tried to stuff in their 9mm framed guns (without adequate modification for the greater recoil energy). Don't know about the .357 sig.

I know that .40 has nearly the bolt thrust of its parent cartridge the 10mm and has been shown to wear guns faster then those chambered for 9mm, especially when both guns are of the same physical dimensions...... and that .357 sig runs at a higher chamber pressure then all of the above.

When it comes down to it I agree that 9mm costs less and is easier to handle (for some folks), but .45 auto isn't likely to wear guns like a .40 or .357 sig might.

Personally I feel that .45 auto handles just as well as a 9mm and has the advantage of being a bigger bullet, which under the performance constraints of handgun ballistics gives just a hair of advantage in overall wounding given larger diameter and sectional density which ensures a greater propensity to straight line penetration to vitals (given we do our job and place our shots well) over smaller, lighter bullets.

But I'm comfortable with .380(heck my personal "minimum" is .32, and .22lr has seen service with Mossad and such and been successful, but I do not recommend rimfire cartridges for anything but target practice).

9x19 luger is a fine cartridge and will get the job done. I particularly appreciate the 9mm in smaller single stack guns that make the vaunted Walther PPK look anachronistic in both weight, power, and capacity when it comes to concealed carry of handguns relating to personal defense these days.
I'm literally biding my time and cultivating my patience for a Shield chambered in such, when it comes to budget and convincing my significant other to allow me to make (yet another) purchase . Can't wait to get my hands on one!

But .45 auto gives us some slight (but real) advantages over the smaller bores.

I think people need to accept that while we -can- get the job done with smaller cartridges, there are -some- (albeit, perhaps, not tremendous) advantages to the bigger bores. Learning to handle the bigger bores as well as the lighter ones, if possible, gives us some, (even if slight) advantage, and when it comes down to it, advantages, even small ones, count.

I think the 9mm craze is a bit misguided, if it results in totally abandoning the bigger bore guns entirely.

But thats just MHO. YMMV.

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Old 04-20-2017, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by gen3guy View Post
The word "LIE" in all caps just kinda jumped out at me. Is it possible that they could just be wrong...without lying?
Of course. That's one of the other believable ones to which I referred. However, given the number of changes, the words that accompanied them, and the fact that they ended up back where they started, lying IS one of the several reasonable interpretations of the known facts.
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Old 04-20-2017, 09:57 PM
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The FBI?

LIE>?

Nah, say it ain't so!

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Old 04-20-2017, 10:44 PM
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I really hate to jump on the bandwagon, but I will add my two cents. I learned to shoot a handgun with the philosophy that only hits count, so my focus was to place my shots on target. I was taught by my long time gunsmith that round nose ammo pushes away tissue, not punching a clean wound channel, and most hollow points are shaped to replicate some type of round nose. One of the long time lessons that I learned is that wadcutters and semi wadcutters punch nice holes that bleed freely. In my readings in a quest to prepare for handgun hunting, I learned that the flatter the bullet nose (metplat), the greater amount of shock that is inflicted.

That being said, I want incapacitation to occur as quickly as possible if I am forced to fire a defensive shot! New technology is not necessarily better. Given my druthers, I would prefer a unique, stout load. In 45, I would prefer a 185gr or 200gr FMJSWC pushed at about 825 fps for a 45. In 38 Special or 357 Magnum, I would love to see Speer resurrect it's 146gr and 160gr half jacketed HPSWC, pushing the 38 Special at about 850 fps, and the 357 at about 1150 fps. For the 9mm, I have yet to see a commercial SWC type bullet, so I would have my reservations.

My first priority is reliable functioning, followed very closely by shot placement. Then, I want a round that will make whomever I am forced to defend myself from to bleed profusely and be incapacitated by shock. Without effective bullets, I would rather score 7 hits with 32 ACP FMJ than 6 near misses with 44 Magnum JHPs!
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Old 04-20-2017, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoogersXDm View Post
OK, agreed. Just one bone of contention-

.45 auto is a low pressure cartridge that doesn't wear guns nearly as much as the higher pressure .40 that earlier, manufacturers tried to stuff in their 9mm framed guns (without adequate modification for the greater recoil energy). Don't know about the .357 sig.
Point taken regarding wear-and-tear. I was thinking more of the .40S&W/.357 Sig than the .45ACP. My mistake lumping them all together.

As far as the advantage of .45 over 9mm, I think with modern self defense ammo, any terminal performance advantage is insignificant, based on what I've researched. Now, if I were restricted to FMJ, I would lean more towards .45, but there are still other factors I'd consider more important than caliber (shootability, carry-ability/concealability, etc.). For example, if I had to choose between a Glock 19 loaded with FMJ or a .45 1911 loaded with FMJ, I'd probably lean towards the Glock 19. FMJ ammo in a 9mm Browning Hi-Power vs. a .45 1911, I'd lean towards the 1911 only because I'm much more familiar with the 1911 than the Hi-Power.

Caliber is a consideration, but not the only one, and I'd argue not even the most important one.

Fortunately, I can choose what works best for me, and others can choose what works best for them.





Also, 9mm rules.
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
Point taken regarding wear-and-tear. I was thinking more of the .40S&W/.357 Sig than the .45ACP. My mistake lumping them all together.

As far as the advantage of .45 over 9mm, I think with modern self defense ammo, any terminal performance advantage is insignificant, based on what I've researched. Now, if I were restricted to FMJ, I would lean more towards .45, but there are still other factors I'd consider more important than caliber (shootability, carry-ability/concealability, etc.). For example, if I had to choose between a Glock 19 loaded with FMJ or a .45 1911 loaded with FMJ, I'd probably lean towards the Glock 19. FMJ ammo in a 9mm Browning Hi-Power vs. a .45 1911, I'd lean towards the 1911 only because I'm much more familiar with the 1911 than the Hi-Power.

Caliber is a consideration, but not the only one, and I'd argue not even the most important one.

Fortunately, I can choose what works best for me, and others can choose what works best for them.





Also, 9mm rules.
My friend, if you are familiar with a 1911, you are familiar with a BHP. If you are familiar with both or either/or, you are familiar with an XD .

In any case, its what you are good with that counts, nothing else.

You pick the gun, caliber, and cartridge that fits you best, and thats it.

Beyond that reality of your ability, you have the reality of physics and human anatomy, and a .32 FMJ that punches the descending aorta will beat(in incapacitation) the .44 magnum that misses entirely, every time.

That all being said, a .45 JHP, given equal propensity to expand and good shot placement, will give greater chance for straight line penetration to vitals you aimed at because of its inherent greater sectional density, and will spread bigger to hit more of those vitals given its greater size.

Did I mention that .45 auto was the inheritor of the .45 LC, which itself was the Handgun Cartridge that Won the West, and past that earned its own accolades from the Philippine insurrection to the Sands of Iwo?


Ask Alvin York and Audie Murphy why the .45 auto is the champion!

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Old 04-20-2017, 11:22 PM
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Ask Alvin York and Audie Murphy why the .45 auto is the champion!
Because they were out of rifle ammo...?

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Old 04-21-2017, 12:07 AM
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[QUOTE=BoogersXDm;139563357


Ask Alvin York and Audie Murphy why the .45 auto is the champion! [/QUOTE]

I have read that after the War Alvin York carried a .32 Auto. Larry
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:17 AM
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Because they were out of rifle ammo...?

More like... 00 buckshot (and hand grenades. but those are NOT for self defense).

Handguns aren't magic wands, thats for sure.

( the most instructive lesson for me from history is when it came to the close quarters action against the Moro in the Philippines. Forgive me my love of the .45, but the story seems to be that it was more like the Winchester Trench Gun and 00, coupled with the .45 automatic, of course, that came from that particular insurrection which have made a lasting imprint on American history as manstoppers. just sayin, put it where it belongs, and a .45 hardball got the job done. Often very quickly. Even against fanatical opposition.From the plains(.45 long colt, does that count?) to the Philippine Moro to WW1 and WW2, Korea and that not to name a few, up till to the jungles of Vietnam. But I go too far, I wasn't there. My granddad was tho. I just trust the .45. ).

ETA- forgive my spelling.

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Old 04-21-2017, 12:19 AM
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I have read that after the War Alvin York carried a .32 Auto. Larry
Hehehehehe.



I could be wrong.
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:59 AM
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Hey didn't Patton shoot at a Stuka with a Colt pocket automatic in .32?

I bet he had a chance at a 1,000,000 to 1 shot, just because HE TRIED.

But make no mistake- a .32 is lethal.

Just maybe not to a Stuka.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
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Please allow me to preface this posting that I do not purport to be an expect on ammo ballistics. But I am informed and observant to the obvious.
I keep hearing and reading: "That with todays ammo, 9mm ammo is just as effective as .40 cal and .45 ACP"
This is completely false. The 9mm has always been superior over the .40 and .45.

Quote:
because the FBI says so. Really, the FBI? A bastion of credibility? Again, REALLY?
The FBI is not a monolithic entity. You should not treat their ballistics and firearms experts with the same distaste you treat other branches of the agency.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:40 AM
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I think muzzle energy is a poor indicator of terminal performance. I believe using power factor (momentum) is better. Here's my example:

Which is more effective? A baseball thrown at 75 mph or chest passing a bowling ball at 10 mph?

Baseball: 5 oz (2187.5 gr), 75 mph (110 fps), 59 ft-lb, 241 PF
Bowling ball: 10 lb (70000 gr), 10 mph (14.667 fps), 33 ft-lb, 1027 PF

Bottom line- the baseball may sting, but the bowling ball will knock you down, even though the baseball carries more energy.

Now, let's compare 2 "standard" loads; 124 gr 9mm+P at 1150 fps and a 230 gr .45 at 850 fps.

9mm: 364 ft-lbs, 143 PF
.45 ACP: 369 ft-lbs, 196 PF

Both have essentially the same ME, but the .45 dominates in power factor. Is the .45 better in terms of stopping power? Probably.

The .45 also has the advantage of a larger hole. Unlike the FBI, civilians don't need to worry about penetrating body armor. That's what rifles are for. Asking a handgun to do that and choosing a load because of it is asinine.

FWIW, I carry 9mm, .38 and 10mm based on personal preference. I'm not trying to push one caliber over another, just looking at it from a different angle.
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Old 04-21-2017, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by BoogersXDm View Post
( the most instructive lesson for me from history is when it came to the close quarters action against the Moro in the Philippines. Forgive me my love of the .45, but the story seems to be that it was more like the Winchester Trench Gun and 00, coupled with the .45 automatic, of course, that came from that particular insurrection which have made a lasting imprint on American history as manstoppers.
That piece of history is what started this controversy in American shooter's minds.

I have my doubts about the story line that the .38 was weak and the .45 solved everything and everyone lived happily ever after. Even before the Philippines there were disgruntled .45 advocates who were just waiting for a chance to criticise the new .38 service round. Fanatical, drugged up mohammedans who wrapped themselves to slow blood loss and who would be tough to stop with any handgun, gave them that chance. The 30-40 Krag firing FMJ RN ammo also had trouble shutting down Moros.

There are just too many inconsistencies regarding this subject. The .36 caliber 51 Navy spawned the .38 caliber cartridge revolvers. The Army bought .36 caliber 51 Navies and later, .44 caliber 1860 Colts and both were used side by side during the Civil War. I haven't read anything about troops ditching their weak .36 caliber 51 Colts for .44 caliber Colts. Both of those revolvers were held in high esteem.

The .38 Long Colt had similar ballistics to the .36 Navy; go figure.

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Old 04-21-2017, 03:20 AM
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That piece of history is what started this controversy in American shooter's minds.

I have my doubts about the story line that the .38 was weak and the .45 solved everything and everyone lived happily ever after. Even before the Philippines there were disgruntled .45 advocates who were just waiting for a chance to criticise the new .38 service round. Fanatical, drugged up mohammedans who wrapped themselves to slow blood loss and who would be tough to stop with any handgun, gave them that chance. The 30-40 Krag firing FMJ RN ammo also had trouble shutting down Moros.

There are just too many inconsistencies regarding this subject. The .36 caliber 51 Navy spawned the .38 caliber cartridge revolvers. The Army bought .36 caliber 51 Navies and later, .44 caliber 1860 Colts and both were used side by side during the Civil War. I haven't read anything about troops ditching their weak .36 caliber 51 Colts for .44 caliber Colts. Both of those revolvers were held in high esteem.

The .38 Long Colt had similar ballistics to the .36 Navy; go figure.
Well, the .38 LC is not the 9mm. That anecdote is not a disparagement on the 9mm, its where the story of the .45 auto began. Not against other americans but against fanatical drugged up jihadists.
They had to take the new (for the time) DA .38 colts out and re-issue SAA revolvers. In .45 LC. By all accounts, this DID perform better in that theater. The .45 auto and the 1911 were the result of that particular experience, the pistol and the cartridge being designed based on the fact that the .38 long colt failed where the .45 long colt succeeded. Thats the reason why we have the cartridge and the 1911. It went on to serve where the SAA was, and for decades most of the record shows it did so admirably, both the pistol and the cartridge.This is a matter of historical record, not a story.


I know I would want my .45 vs. my little pocket .380 or a .38 long colt (similar ballistics), if I was facing the Moro. Or ISIS.But, I'd bet a Browning Hi Power would be good, too.

Better yet, yeah, give me a rifle and a Marine platoon.

Just sayin'.


And yeah, I know the smaller rounds will work, most of the time, hopefully. Especially against the average criminal type. I'm more then happy going about my peaceful life with a .380 or a .38 special snubnose. You need to do your job with much less error, the smaller/lower powered you go, but....... they'll work.

I favor having a .45, however, because its known to stop people even with FMJ. It will make a bigger hole then a 9mm FMJ, and yeah, that doesn't matter if you miss with both, but history is history, and the .45 has a good history, even up to and including my own relatives.

So just call my choice a personal thing.

I love 9mm's in the smaller guns these days for sure. I once had a love affair with the Browning Hi Power.

But a high capacity .45 loaded with some hot +p JHP's is just the thing, for me .

Quote:
Originally Posted by V0OBWxZS16 View Post
The FBI is not a monolithic entity. You should not treat their ballistics and firearms experts with the same distaste you treat other branches of the agency.
Uh-oh. Well, -I- surely didn't mean to disparage the FBI. I was simply venting my personal opinion of them currently based on the Clinton thing. You know, all the ....errrhhmmm.... LYING.
Nothing personal. Just right now, the FBI needs to earn my trust back. I appreciate and respect the work they do,for the most part...... but, um the Clinton thing..... that was my angle about them LYING.


I think that if someone wants to call the conclusion they reached in their recent tests a lie, thats their prerogative.
I don't necessarily think that way, but do take into account that once upon a time these were the guys who thought the 10mm was the be all and end all and they had all the science they could muster at our (taxpayer) expense to prove it, but then they realized they had alot of folks (for whatever reason)that couldn't handle it.
But for those that can handle it, they tend to like it just fine.

Last edited by BoogersXDm; 04-21-2017 at 03:52 AM.
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  #49  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:44 AM
Brasky Brasky is offline
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Originally Posted by LAA View Post
I'm sorry too, 'cause 9mm is just too wimpy. I just separated a bunch of 9mm cases from a coffee can that included some 45/70's. Made 'um look even wimpier! And we all know that a Shield 45 will put more bullets towards the bulls eye as the target extends to 25 yrds, than that wimpy "nine ever could". Besides, the 45 recoil & follow up of a 45 Shield is a nothing event, except for perhaps the smallest of hands. There, at least I feel better, even though, we still keep a few 9's around here. For me, 1st grade was about 60 years ago.
If you think "how a bullet looks" determines how much power it has, you failed at ballistics somewhere along your journey

There are a LOT of calibers more potent than 45/70 that have smaller casings. But then again it looks big so it has to be more powerful right?

In federal HST, 45 penetrated about the same as 9mm and expands marginally wider. 9mm hst expands WIDER than the majority of 45 auto hollow point loadings.

The fact that you brought up "hand size" in your argument is more evidence this is an ego trip. The shield 45 is a small firearm and my 5'2 110lb wife can handle it no problem even with small hands.

Sorry you failed to do any research on the topic. Keep trudging around with thinking your 45 will stop the perp in one shot regardless of where you hit him
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:14 AM
LAA LAA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brasky View Post
If you think "how a bullet looks" determines how much power it has, you failed at ballistics somewhere along your journey

There are a LOT of calibers more potent than 45/70 that have smaller casings. But then again it looks big so it has to be more powerful right?

In federal HST, 45 penetrated about the same as 9mm and expands marginally wider. 9mm hst expands WIDER than the majority of 45 auto hollow point loadings.

The fact that you brought up "hand size" in your argument is more evidence this is an ego trip. The shield 45 is a small firearm and my 5'2 110lb wife can handle it no problem even with small hands.

Sorry you failed to do any research on the topic. Keep trudging around with thinking your 45 will stop the perp in one shot regardless of where you hit him
I'm very aware of ballistics. It's my thing. Always researching, always testing. Notebooks full of this stuff. I never said anything about the ballistics of a 45/70 versus others. Just the size, just the size...

As to Federal HST 45 expanding wider than the 9mm, yes it does. It's what resides in my 45. There are some others out there, that do well to.

While were at it, no remark about knocking down a perp with a 45 regardless of where hit.............either.

I just don't pretend to defend that teeny 9mm..
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