I bought a Smith and Wesson J frame 357. Super tiny, weighs less than two pound. It's for self defense in the event I am at an event and there is a terrorist attack.

My question is, what type of ammo would be best to pierce armor? Bullets with more Muzzle Energy, or with more velocity?

I came across Liberty's 357 ammo which looks very atypical when it comes to 357 rounds (see below) . The grain is low, the MV is very high and the ME is very low. Is this the type of ammo I need, or is something with much higher ME and higher weighted (more grains) what I am looking for. Please let me know thanks!
Grain Weight 50 Grains
Muzzle Velocity 2100 Feet Per Second
Muzzle Energy 490 Foot Pounds

I suspect your post will stir up a big can of wriggling fat worms, so get your fishing gear ready.

FYI, it is illegal for a private individual to own, fabricate, or possess true armor piercing ammunition. In addition with the low muzzle velocities produced by a 1 7/8 inch long barrel even a turn military grade armor piercing round will prove to be pretty much useless. IMO your best choice for personal protection with your new J frame would be the Speer 135 grain short barrel Gold Dot load. It won't do much against body armor but to be honest only a Rifle will prove effective against modern body armor.

That short barrel isn't going to produce enough energy. A true armor piercing bullet is made of different material and isn't available to the public.

AP ammo is different from hollow points. It doesn't expand. And you will have legal problems if you​actually use it on someone. Not just because you have it but also there is a huge risk of over penetration which could result in multiple people getting hurt

When you're looking at bullet performance (speed/energy) you have too look at what the test barrel was. A longer barrel produces more speed and energy because it allows more powder to be burned. Typically test barrels are at least 4 inches, sometimes they can be a lot longer.
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Skip the fancy ammo. Learn the Mozambique drill.

To possess armor piercing handgun ammo is a Federal offense (unless you are LEO of some sort).

__________________
On the Oak Savannah

As others have mentioned, AP handgun ammunition is illegal and/or unavailable.

Also, if your intended purpose is to protect yourself in a terrorist attack like you said, the J-frame would be a horrible choice. Plus, most likely any attack of that type will likely involve some sort of explosive device or maybe a very large truck. I doubt any handgun will keep you safe.

I suspect a bridge has lost it's troll.

Welcome to the Forum

There is no handgun ammunition that will reliably penetrate modern body armor. Not even LEO ammo

If you have a terrorist wearing body armor coming at you, your best bet is to shoot him with a rifle at a distance and NOT let him get withing suicide bombing distance of you.

If you have no rifle, then you want Muzzle Energy from your firearm. It will not penetrate the vest, but a centered chest hit will knock the wind out of him and give you the chance to run away.

I can tell you from personal experience that a 12 gauge slug will not penetrate a vest, but it will give the wearer of the body armor a moment of shock and create an awesome bruise and possibly fracture a rib or two.

1. Purchase one of these:
Vickers Slings | AR-15 Slings | AR Slings | AK Slings

2. Purchase one of these:
Colt's Manufacturing Company LLC > Catalog > Rifles > LE6920 Series

3. Purchase one of these:
El Paso Saddlery Dual Duty 3 Slot Outside the Waistband Holster Right

Load #2 with this:
IMI Ammo 5.56x45mm NATO 62 Grain M855 SS109 Penetrator Full Metal

Load your J frame with ammo of your choice (the aforementioned Speer 135gr short barrel load is an excellent choice).

Place #3 on your belt. Insert J frame into #3.

Attach #1 to #2 and place over your shoulder.

This is best option for defeating armor while carrying your J frame.

__________________
Straight shootin'
SWCA#2439

Thanks guys!
Not a troll, in fact I am a member of the National Guard.

Also check this out
Liberty Civil Defense 9mm and Body Armor - YouTube

M903 Caliber .50 Saboted Light Armor Penetrator (SLAP)



Used by M2HB machine gun. The SLAP is used in combat against current and future light armored targets and Armored Attack Helicopters (AAHs). The M903 offers the capability to defeat these targets at ranges two to three times that of currently available ammunition.

Armor Penetration.
500 meters: 1.34 in (34 mm)
1,200 meters: 0.91 in (23 mm)

Projectile diameter: 0.30 inches (7.7 mm)

The cartridge consists of a heavy metal (tungsten) penetrator that is sabot-launched at a much higher velocity than standard rounds. The sabot, which is designed to break up at the muzzle to release the penetrator, must also survive the gun environment until launch. It is injection molded of special high strength plastic and is reinforced with an aluminum insert in the base section. The cartridge is identified by an amber sabot (Ultem 1000).

Type Classification: STD. Type Classification Date: 31-MAR-1993
Unit cost: $8.87 (Fiscal Year 2005)

I think your (my, anyone's) chances of encountering an armored assailant are vanishingly small, North Hollywood bank robbers notwithstanding. You will tilt the odds toward you by:

1. Situational awareness (trying to avoid bad areas near you and watching your surroundings at all times).
2. Having your .357 on you at all times and becoming very proficient with it. You may find another gun will be easier to shoot, if not carry.
3. Knowing the laws regarding using it, and likely legal representation or insurance coverage on call.

With these steps, you are unlikely to need to use (let alone draw) your gun but will be as prepared as possible. Good luck in your decisions.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Ignoring the fact that such a scenario registers improbably low on the already very small probability of ever needing to use your gun...

I'd take any 125 or 158 jacketed hollow point over that gimmicky ammo. Even if it doesn't penetrate the vest it will put some serious hurt onto what ever is behind the vest.

george is another George - so he must be OK! I hope I can add a tiny bit to what other's have stated here! From what I have seen on the news, I don't think you have to be concerned about a modern-day terrorist attacking you in such a manner that you will have a clear shot at him or her. I'm afraid they don't operate that way, they would much rather operate from a distance, as in an IED, or simply mix in with the crowd and detonate their explosive charge.

Edited to add: I think the SS109 would be a grand idea - you might want to get some while it's still (I think) available...

The M855 "green bullet" 5.56 ammo is specifically excluded from the definition of being an AP round. I don't think that has changed yet. But there have been attempts to ban the M855 for civilian use. Back close to 40-50 years ago, there was a handgun round called the KTW on the market which was sold as armor piercing, and it created quite a stir among LE and the anti-gun crowd as it was fairly effective in that role. Of course it was always described as being the "Cop-Killer Bullet" despite the fact that no cops were ever killed with it. There were several different variations of the KTW bullet, but it was generally jacketed solid metal - first, a tungsten alloy coated with Teflon, and later, brass. Those KTW cartridges are collector items now. It is not illegal to own AP ammo (at least in most places). You just cannot buy it as it is restricted to LE sale only.

Allow me to correct a few myths about AP ammo.
Depending on individual state laws, it is not necessarily illegal to purchase, sell or possess AP handgun ammo (i.e.: KTW, Arcane, THV, American Ballistics, WWII German iron core/sintered iron, 1950's Czech steel core etc.). It is a federal crime to commit a crime while in possession of handgun AP ammo. It is illegal for retailers to sell AP ammo to the general public. It is illegal to import into the country or manufacturer AP ammo without a permit.

Some of Liberty Ammunition's HALO/Civil Defense rounds have been tested and can penetrate certain levels of soft body armor but since the bullet is not made of certain forbidden metals and was not designed as a AP round, it is not and cannot be classified as AP.

Okay, one more post from me on this topic and it's a side-bar...

LeHigh's extreme penetrator.

9mm ammo that's designed to penetrate. Gimmick, or what I am looking for?

I would drop the idea of the AP ammo and still k with know performers. That liberty defense may penetrate a plate but without the plate it fragments when what you want is the bullet to retain it's weight. It may enter is a 50gr but by the time it gets to 12 inches it's only 10gr. On top of that what happens when your AP round doesn't find an armour vest? It doesn't stop at one person!

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Expensive gimmick. When would you need 30" of penetration? It's funny how he mentions the typical "hollows points can plug and not preform" routine. If a hollow point fails to expand it just acts like a regular jacketed bullet... It doesn't just stop in in tracks because it doesn't expand.

If you want a good comparison google "9mm ammo test". The first hit should be from Luckygunner. They have comparison data from dozens of different rounds.

One of our posters had a sig line that there will be many statements about the law. Some will be spectacularly wrong. That fits here.

You've got all kinds of overlapping laws, Federal, State, and sometimes local. I live in a state with some of the least restrictive laws around. But we do have a law against owning AP handgun ammo. I also see it all the time at gun shows. Guess the cops that swarm the places don't know or don't care. I pretty much agree with the above posters who suggest that it isn't the best choice anyway. It could be the OP here is a troll, or unfamiliar with the thoughts on ammo.

The ultra light 357s are almost as brutal on the rear as on the front. The only salvation is that under stress, you won't feel the bruising until later if you're the shooter and not the bruisee.

Jeff Cooper was once asked how to avoid being the victim of violence. His response was "stay home". Then he went on to suggest being home at night, particularly the wee hours. And don't go where underage or young adults drink alcohol. If you enjoy going places to celebrate or party, you assume some risk. Taking along your own gun just makes you a criminal, too.

__________________
Dick Burg

How so

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There is no great legal handgun choice re: a terrorist scenario where the bad guy has a long gun and body armor. But as has been pointed out, these incidents are so astonishingly rare that it's tough to prepare for them every day. There might be a flash flood once every 25 years around here, but that doesn't mean I pull a boat behind my truck every day...just in case.

What events do you attend where there is a likelihood of a terrorist attack? Ones with no armed security/LEO presence?

My personal approach is, when legally possible, I carry an EDC handgun with common JHPs with an AK pistol + brace in my trunk with plenty of loaded magazines. That's the get-home, "S" has hit the fan gun. 7.62x39 will punch pistol-rated body armor out to any reasonable defensive range.

What Dick Burg said in #20.

The chances of a civilian (or off-duty Guardsman) encountering a situation calling for armor piercing ammo are about the same as the chances of his being hit by a meteorite at high noon on Good Friday. In Dubuque.

Preparedness is fine and I'm all for it. Fantasizing can get you in trouble.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Let's be clear. I am not a troll. I never want to be placed in a situation where I have to draw my firearm. I feel most situations I can handle physically without ever reaching for a weapon.

However if the situation ever calls for it, I would prefer to be ready... and if I am legally allowed to obtain the ammo as a member of the military, there isnt an issue. However if im not allowed to use it/buy it. I wont.

Muzzle energy is composed of mass and velocity.

The general formula for the kinetic energy is

Ek = 1/2m * V squared

where

v is the velocity of the bullet
m is the mass of the bullet.

You can see by this formula that kinetic energy, mass and velocity are inextricably linked together.

Higher muzzle energy is attained by increasing mass, velocity or both.

Armor piercing rounds usually consist of a high velocity bullet with a hard nose shaped to maximize armor piercing capability. A bullet may also by a sabot round that has a penetrator that is smaller diameter than the overall projectile.

Armor piercing rockets use a shaped explosive charge to deliver a shattering force directly in front of the projectile w/o expending energy to the sides.

PS: I'm glad you aren't a troll. Welcome to the forum.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

As a military serviceman (thank you, by the way) you may have access to AP ammo for rifles. You will probably note that there is no issued AP handgun ammo - NATO spec 9 mm FMJ is probably as good at going through lightly covered targets as anything else readily available.

If you feel the need to have some available for your .357, I see no issue with carrying a speedloader or even the cylinder with full power FMJ rounds, with the understanding they will either not go through true body armor (pretty weak stuff compared to any rifle), or more likely overpenetrate an unarmored target and cause damage on the far side. "Be sure of your backstop" applies here and then some.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Aside from truckloads of caliber .50 API and API-T, most of the armor piercing ammunition the Army issued me over twenty plus years and a couple of combat tours was 90 mm or larger. The only rifle caliber armor-piercing ammunition in general circulation during my time was caliber .30 AP M2, and less frequently caliber .30 API M14, used mostly in a tank mounted M37 machinegun.

With the advent of the M14 and 7.62 NATO, AP M61 was type classified, but outside of the supply catalog I never saw a single round issued, ever. Plenty of ball M59 and later ball M80. Plenty of linked 4 ball-1 tracer machine gun ammo, but none with AP.

In the late 80's, Cartridge 5.56mm, Armor Piercing, M995 was pictured and described in TM 43-0001-27, ARMY AMMUNITION DATA SHEETS, SMALL CALIBER AMMUNITION, FSC 1305 but never actually issued to any Armor unit I was in during training or for combat operations.

During WWII, I have read that during the later period of the war there was more .30 AP M2 (it has a black tip) issued than the standard .30 M2 ball round, as it was much more effective in defeating all sorts of targets, not just armor. And that may be true, as I have seen a lot of it. Back in the good old days, DCM supplied millions of rounds of .30 M2 AP ammo to gun clubs. Many competitive shooters found that it grouped more tightly than .30 M2 Ball. I still have several unopened 20 round boxes of .30 M2 AP ammo. The German use of AP bullets in 8mm Mauser during WWII was also widespread, but the 8mm steel penetrator was much smaller than the one used in the US .30 AP round. I still have some of that also.

There is an armor piercing round for the 5.56x45 NATO which is the M995, which has a carbide penetrator. Apparently very little was issued as most have never heard of it. It was purchased from Bofors in Sweden, and not loaded in the USA. Likewise, in addition to the 7.62x51 NATO M61 AP round, there is also another 7.62mm AP round, the M993, also manufactured by Bofors. Asis the case for the M995, few are aware of its existence.

What is missing here is a discussion of the carry laws surrounding the "event". Due to the various alcohol (51%) rules, venue rights to forbid CC, and others I know are out there, you may very likely be forbidden to carry (regardless of ammo type) while at the event you expect to have issues. Sure, many here will say carry anyway, 12 vs 6, etc., but the potential criminal / civil lawsuits will keep you busy for years.

A short belt of SLAP dummy rounds, as used for training soldiers how to load and clear the M2 HB. M903 SLAP and M962 SLAP-T did get issued. Only saw it linked with M2 or M9 links for the M2. Never saw it linked with M15A2 links for the M85 gun. Army Data Sheet does not list it for use in the M85, but there is no indication if that is a deliberate omission or an oversight. (My personal suspicion is that the open bolt design of the M85 and its feed tray would be subject to stoppages.)

Maybe 40 years ago, Winchester loaded a metal piercing round in 357. I believe it was intended for highway patrolman. It was a FMJ that that was very pointed. I believe it weighed 158 GR.

I have the complete product specs including dimensioned drawings for both the M903 SLAP and the M962 SLAP-T. They state that both are authorized for use in the M2, M3, and M85. The only link specified for both is the M9.

Remington, Winchester, and Western all offered metal penetrating rounds in several calibers at one time, but not today. Remington's bullet was a zinc alloy die casting (the cartridge was called the Hi-Way Master) while W-Ws bullet used a very thick metal cap over a lead core. For sure, they were available in .38 Special and .45 ACP, possibly also available in .357, but I don't know that for sure. They were not marketed as armor piercing, and would have little effect on armor plate - the idea was to penetrate auto bodies.

Question I have is, What jihadi wears body armor? The people the OP is referencing are looking to accomplish 2 things. First, create enough chaos to make the news. And second, become martyrs. They don't wear body armor. See Manchester. See Santa Barbara.

If you were to use AP type ammo, there is a serious risk of over penetration. So, that innocent behind the terrorist gets hit and you're facing criminal charges as well as civil lawsuits.

__________________
Peace was my Profession

The M85 absolutely will not function with an M9 link. The M85 feeds by stripping the round from the belt while going forward. The "pencil clip" style M15A2 link is required.

l have a couple of these rounds somewhere in 38 Spcl.. l think

Winchester/Rem called them ''Metal Piercing''

True enough, but my SLAP/SLAP-T spec information dates from the early 2000s, and as the M85 MG had been withdrawn from military service somewhat earlier than that, the M15 link is no longer current and there would be no reason to mention it as a stock item because it no longer exists. I do not show the M15 link listed as being currently produced for .50 BMG at Lake City, only the M9.

BTW, I always found it somewhat scary that the US was only one deep in manufacture of links. Unless things have changed, the ONLY links manufactured in the US are made at Lake City AAP (they had taken over production from Valentecwells, Inc. in CA). Some years ago I needed a large supply of new M27 5.56 links, and I couldn't get them through Lake City as all of their production was spoken for. I had to get them via Winchester through a French manufacturer (SIPR Defense in Marseilles). And it was a nightmare. The first batch received was boxes of loose links, so they couldn't be used in the linking machines. It took over six months to get things straightened out.

This hasn't stopped the Russians from making a very hot AP 9mm for their handguns and SMGs. I personally would rather just leapfrog all of that and go to the 6.5 CBJ sabot for CQB...a 10-12" barrel, suppressed for flash, and a quad stack 50rnd mag would be the bee's knee's compared to an M4.

with velocity comes energy. I don't think you need worry too much about bad guys wearing armor. Look at these for great stopping power. Lehigh Defense - Manuf. of Bullet and Defense Ammunition Technology – Lehigh Defense, LLC

https://www.lehighdefense.com/collec...ant=1066278768