Hi:
In the revolver era the .38spl 158gr LSWC-HP +P was called the "Secret Service / FBI carry ammo.

In regard to the Secret Service were a shooting to protect the President would likely be very close range and in a crowd of people, was over penetration a concern ?

Thanks,
Jimmy

I believe the Secret Service used the Winchester 110 grain Plus P PLus load,... Q, something but I could be wrong.

I think over penetration is a modern dilemma/problem that really has no basis for concern until you get to .357 magnum.

The FBI is part of the Department of Justice while the Secret Service was part of the U.S. Treasury Department. At about the same time that the 158 grain FBI load was in use, the Treasury Department started using the "Treasury Load," a 110 grain jacketed hollow point. This was a hot load, a low end .357 Magnum load but I believe the term "+P+" had not yet come into use.

I have many boxes of Winchester .38 special 110 gr +P+ and Federal 110 +p+ (controlled expansion Bullets Law Enforcement only.)

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A Snider squibbed n the Jungle

I am Sure this load is what the US Government used at Border Crossings and any Government Official type law enforcement encounters.

__________________
A Snider squibbed n the Jungle

In my post on the FBI and Treasury loads, I referred to the Treasury load as a "low end .357 Magnum load." The Treasury load is indeed a .38 Special but its ballistics approached those of the milder .357 magnums. To further complicate matters, the Treasury load headstamp consisted of a manufacturer abbreviation and the last two digits of the year. It did not say .38 Special.

...unless you are only talking revolver ammunition.

Over penetration with stiff 9mm FMJ or a hollow point that doesn't expand is downright common.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

If you want to read a great story about the Secret Service defending the
President, get a copy of American Gunfight. In 1947 2 terrorists
attempted to assassinate President Truman. Ayoob did an article on
the book in his Ayoob Files. American Handgunner. March/April 2006.
Secret Service Agents were using good old 158-Gr. round nose lead in
their .38 Specials.

Ayoob did mention, at the time of the article in 2006, the Secret Service
was using .357 SIG ammo in their SIG-Sauer semi-autos.

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In Omnia Paratus

Years ago I read an article that said Dan Wesson Arms had made some custom 256 Win mag revolvers for penetration of then current body armor that the SS was concerned about. Never heard anything more, so don't know if it was ever used.

I once had the opportunity to read over what was supposed to be the Hold Harmless Agreement between Winchester and the Treasury Department over those "Q" loads.

The TD waived excessive wear, possibly injury and/or death resulting from the use thereof. I can't recall if they expressly required the use of .357 firearms.

The intent was to get .357 performance without having ammunition headstamped ".357 Magnum". The ACLU & fellow travelers were having conniptions over excessive force and cruel & unusual punishment from the use of "Magnums" & "dum-dums".

While I don't believe any pressures were published, I'd expect they were well above .38 Spl and ventured into magnum territory.

When we moved into this house in 1980, one of my neighbors was an immigration enforcement officer. He had been a Border Patrolman down in Arizona before that.

I don't know if it was his department's policy or just his supervisor's, but they issued him a 50 round box of Winchester's 110 grain "Treasury" loads and a 50 round box of W-W 148 grain mid-range match ammo every month. They were told to shoot it and bring back the empties.

He was a year or two from retirement and although he enjoyed shooting and hunting, the novelty of those 110 grain bombs in his 2-1/2 inch Model 19 had worn off. I thus got a new part-time job working for him making once-fired brass.

We were a few boxes ahead of schedule, so when he retired, I had a few hundred rounds of each. A couple of years later, my shooting buddy and I went in on a chronograph and a Ransom Rest.

I don't recall the exact figures any longer but the hot .38 was less than 50 fps slower than Winchester's 110 grain .357 Magnum loading fired from the same revolver. We shot 10 or 15 rounds through a 2 inch Model 60 but the rest we shot through various .357's from 2-1/2 to 8-3/8 inches.

It was loud, nasty stuff.

I have a selection of WCC +P+ brass cases that supposedly came from a Federal range. 38 Special; and I was told they were all loaded with 110 gr. HP . I load them for my own use to +P+ levels and only use them in 357 revolvers.

The FBI .38 ammo I was issued was +P+ 147 grain Hydra Shoks from 1991 until revolvers were disallowed in 2000. I never thought it was all that hot at 950 fps.

I can't speak for my pals in the USSS, but the Bu doesn't worry about over-penetration.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I have some Federal 110gr +P+ with no date and indicating .38 Special +P+ and some Winchester 110 gr +P+ indicating
WCC+P+ and 78 (for 1978) with no mention of .38 Special. The box, however does say "Caliber .38 Special 110 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point For Law Enforcement Only" No +P+ listed on the box. Then I also have some Winchester 110gr +P+ from 1995. Again the case does not say .38 Special, but the box now indicates ".38 Special +P+ 110 Jacketed Controlled Expansion"

I carry these in my S&W 642-1. I bought them at several gun shows in CAL and AZ. they were $8.00 for 50 while .38 Special +P were $20.00 for 20 and $6.00 for a box of 50 reloads, 158 gr SWC.

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A Snider squibbed n the Jungle

I chronographed some of this for a Sheriffs Dept. Trainer years ago. My notes show an advertised velocity of 1020 fps (source not noted).

Federal, headstamped FC 87, went (2")941, (3")1047, (4")1064, (6") 1130.
WCC+P+ 87 went (2") 946, (3") 1024, (4") 1072, (6") 1174.

The '88 GUN DIGEST shows a .38 Spl. +P 110@995/4".
A .357 110 @1295/4".

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Good shooting.

It sure was! Those folks who look down on rubber grips as ugly "Goodyears" have, I would think, never fired ammunition such as the Treasury load in guns with standard wooden grips. Not to mention for qualification! Case in point, the RB snub Model 19 was difficult to control with it's standard RB Magna service stocks with Magnum or Treasury ammo. As was the RB Model 60 J-frame. Pach grips became almost "de rigueur" for LEOs who carried such guns/loads on the street.

Great post, BUFF! Brought back a lot of memories, especially the "extra ammo" part.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

P+ ammo loading began in 1972.

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Doug

I don't mean to hijack the thread but how silly is it when the media objects to the duty round chosen by a law enforcement agency. Do they really believe you can shoot someone "a little bit".

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I guess so Old Cop

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The Winchester 38 Special 158 grain +P LSWCHP was called the FBI Load or, in the midwest, sometimes the Chicago or St. Louis Load, both of who used it.

Secret Service, on the other hand, used the so-called Treasury Load, the 38 Special 110 grain JHP +P+ (a low end .357 Magnum for use in 38 Special revolvers).

The load you mentioned was replaced in the FBI by the the one mentioned by SIG P-220. The reason was they thought that later round penetrated better on car bodies.

However, the earlier load works pretty well. It was std. issue in Dallas,and one officer killed six felons with it, using his issued four-inch M-64.

I like the +P+ 110 gr Winchester load for urban carry in my "magnum" framed Model 60-12 (one of the last .38 only Model 60s produced). For some reason, it still shoots on the sights pretty good.

The FBI +P load was our issued ammo and it saved my butt on more than one occassion.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Much mention has been made here to over penetration of the Standard .38 Special Police Load (158 gr Lead Round Nose) and hotter .38 Special loads.

Just how much over penetration was a problem or was there really that much over penetration going on?

When Jack Ruby shot Oswald, with a 2" Colt, why was there no over penetration? The gun was a Colt. 2" BBL. The ammo available at the time was , .38 Police Special (158 gr Lead Round Nose) Or 200gr Super Police or 148 gr wade cutter.

Or did the round exit? Many police types where right there in the line of fire. I do not remember anyone being hit by Ruby except Oswald.

Is over penetration with the .38 Special really that much to be concerned about??

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A Snider squibbed n the Jungle

for one thing, it's a LOT different today - flocks of greedy people and shady lawyers just looking for a case

As I recall, an alternate FBI load was the .38 special 158-gr. LSWC +P (no hollow point) for increased penetration, particularly in cold weather. I still have a couple of boxes of this load, in this case produced by Winchester.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

When I started in LE in 1978 my department issued the M-19 loaded with Federal .357 Magnum 125gr JHP. That was hot ammo and was famous for flame cutting and worn forcing cones, but it's also round that gave the 357 its stopping power reputation. OTOH the Fed/Rem/WW 110gr .357 was a ***** cat compared to the 125 gr. The 110gr +P+ load was designed to give near the performance of the 110 gr. 357 but to not be an "actual" magnum.

Many tests made back in the day showed the 110 +P+ and 357 Mag to fail to penetrate car bodies but 125 & 158 gr. 357s cut through cars with energy to spare.

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Support your Police, & NRA

.38 special 158-gr. LSWC +P (no hollow point)

Had a boat load of this round gifted to me. Hot stuff! And this is exactly what I carry in snubs for Boston winters.

During my tenure as a firearms instructor for a major Texas police Dept., I had the chance to fire many of the Treasury loads, which were manufactured by Winchester and Federal , and they were HOT 110 grain 38 special +p+ and they were primarily concerned with penetration concerns. They were especially entertaining at night when the muzzle blast went about 10 yards down range. 357 magnum must have been a four letter word to the feds. The FBI load was a 38 special +p lead semi-wadcutter hollow point that was not very impressive. The FBI special agents that came to our range to shoot were somewhat defensive about their lukewarm load. Sadly, it took the Miami shootout to change attitudes.

Odd that you'd say that. That load, in Agent Mireles's M-586, is what killed both perps in that incident.

It had a good rep in Dallas PD. FBI agents and Dallas cops could both use 145 grain .357 Silvertips as an option. The Bureau did say that approval had to be obtained from the local SAC.

An interesting thread for sure. I enjoy hearing from real LEO and their experiences. So much on the net is speculation. I have never fired a shot in anger but have taken or seen taken hundreds of big game animals with everything from a 22 to 54 caliber muzzle loaders. The one observation I have seen is those 158 grain lead swc's of soft lead do not tear up much tissue. When recovered they mushroom well but the wound channel has no ragged hole. When hot jacketed bullets are used, then the holes look far more impressive, the jacket acting as little fast rotating knives. Just my observation from limited experiences. For my personal preference I would use Keith hard cast swc's, they kill better than they should. I shot a bear 5 times at muzzle, through the body, and all bullets exited, using a 6" 357. Or I would use something like Remington Golden Sabers with impressive segmented jackets. I have one of these from a 380 ACP recovered from am antelope and it is picture perfect. One note on the 357 Mag and 110 grain hollow point penetration. In my recovered bullet collection I have a 110 grain Hornaday HP loaded hot, fired from a 6" 357. The bullet was recovered from a 2# groundhog shot at 10 yards distance. The little groundhog stopped the bullet and the bullet did not even make it to the far side skin but was lodged in the body cavity. About 3" of penetration was all.