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Old 06-26-2017, 08:31 AM
NewToGuns17 NewToGuns17 is offline
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Default Over penetration?

I shoot Winchester white box 9mm 115g fmj through my shield at the range but was recommended to carry hollow point. Is over penetration really a concern with 9mm range ammo? I would love to be able to load all my mags with range ammo and not have to unload the hp when I want to go shoot!
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Old 06-26-2017, 08:36 AM
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Default over pen

yes it is a likely hood, you don't want to shoot someone behind the bad guy,unless it another bad guy. i once shot an armed robber that had a sawed off pump shotgun. all seven rounds went all the way through him, i was using full metal jacket 45 acp. just get some extra mags.

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Old 06-26-2017, 08:46 AM
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IIRC, Ayoob wrote that solid 9mm were a serious risk for over penetration by NYPD.
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:08 AM
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I agree with that, which is why I never liked 9mm. I had occasion to meet Ayoob when someone hired him to testify at our courthouse. Seemed like a nice guy.
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Old 06-26-2017, 10:33 AM
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Just last night on Preacher a strip club owner lady took a bullet which penetrated her office wall.
It hit her in the chest while she was sitting at her desk.
Caliber unknown!
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:20 AM
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Quality hollow point defensive ammunition is advised for carry and home defense for a variety of good reasons. You should also be shooting some of it through your Shield anyway to confirm reliability and point-of-impact.

Do you really find unloading magazines such a chore?
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Old 06-26-2017, 12:29 PM
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I'm only a old Revolver guy -
But I thought the best way to unload mags was to shoot them until they are empty!
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Old 06-26-2017, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PILGRIM View Post
I'm only a old Revolver guy -
But I thought the best way to unload mags was to shoot them until they are empty!
Certainly the most fun.

What you want is for the ammo to dump all its energy in the target. JHPs do that by blossoming and dissipating the energy via broader cross-section. They thereby cause more trauma and are more likely to incapacitate the target. FMJ is more likely to penetrate barriers as well as the person and continue along its way, possibly striking another. JHPs are the way to go for actual field use unless you expect to be up against those wearing armor or hiding behind barriers.......unlikely for a civilian.
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Old 06-26-2017, 12:42 PM
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Default Not at the range

Any ammo is ok at the range, except some folks don't like steel core or armor piercing bullets becaus it tears up their range.

Overpenetration is a real world problem, you shoot at somebody you don't want the bullet to go through a wall and kill the wrong person. FMJ and poorly performing jacketed bullets are prone to overpenetration.

Besides, JHP is much more expensive and you want to save that for the real deal and a little familiarization with how it shoots.

Most any mainstream defense ammo is good. Hornady XTP and Speer Gold Dots and such.

Something else that hollow points do are expand to make a larger wound channel.

Bullets are designed to expand in a range of velocities. The length of your barrel affects velocity



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Old 06-26-2017, 12:43 PM
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I wouldn't be too concerned about it. You are much more likely to completely miss your target then over penetrate through a target, and you should be aware of what is directly behind your target anyways. Has there ever been a case where a 9mm round went completely through a person and then did serious damage to another individual? Lets say a bullet pentrates 12" all the way through the mid-section of a person and then exits doing around 200 FPS. Is that bullet going to have enough energy left to do serious damage?

Don't get me wrong I'd prefer a hollow point, but realistically the over penetration factor is just as likely to come out in your favor as is is to be a liability. It's probably more likely that another bad guy is standing directly behind bad guy #1 than a little old lady or an innocent baby.
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Old 06-26-2017, 12:45 PM
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Default Not at the range

Any ammo is ok at the range, except some folks don't like steel core or armor piercing bullets becaus it tears up their range.

Overpenetration is a real world problem, you shoot at somebody you don't want the bullet to go through a wall and kill the wrong person. FMJ and poorly performing jacketed bullets are prone to overpenetration.

Besides, JHP is much more expensive and you want to save that for the real deal and a little familiarization with how it shoots.

Most any mainstream defense ammo is good. Hornady XTP and Speer Gold Dots and such.

Something else that hollow points do are expand to make a larger wound channel.

Bullets are designed to expand in a range of velocities. The length of your barrel affects velocity

Get an Uplula or similar loader to to make loading mags easy.

Get a few spare mags, keep one loaded with SD ammo.
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:09 PM
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It would seem by statistics that misses cause more problems than over-penetration.
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:23 PM
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Are Civilians not protected as are Police in over penetration shootings in regards to justifiable shootings, or where a very bad guy was committing mayhem and the shooting of him was justified?
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:37 PM
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Are Civilians not protected as are Police in over penetration shootings in regards to justifiable shootings, or where a very bad guy was committing mayhem and the shooting of him was justified?
Some states it may be, Florida may be one of those under their castle doctrine. IIRC in a justified shooting that the shooter cannot be sued, prosecuted. But that does not mean the prosecutor will not try to anyway.

Some states they go after the criminal, NC is one of the states where the criminal can be charged for injury, or death during a felony. Even if police, or a civilian causes the death, or injury.

The truth of the matter is criminals do not want an audience when they commit a crime. Most people not involved if there are going to get out of Dodge. Bullets through center mass do not retain much energy once they exit, they are not going far. In some shooting exiting rounds can be found within a short distance from the victim.

A professional boxer delivers more energy than a hollow point bullet. A strong person can withstand several blows, even though ALL of the energy is dumped. Centuries of shooting have proven that solid chunks of lead works. Recent decades of shootings have seen failures by hollow points.
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Old 06-26-2017, 02:07 PM
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I was in a gunfight w/an armed robber in'74 and we carried +P round nose lead thirty-eight rounds then. I hit him four times and at least three were pass through center mass hits. Fortunately my backstop was a brick building so no one got hurt except the bad guy. Hollow points are designed with the safety of innocent bystanders in mind and you would be well served to invest in them.
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Old 06-26-2017, 02:47 PM
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Serious purposes require serious ammo. Go find a copy of Doc Roberts' duty ammo recommendations, pick a load that works well and you can shoot well, and get a bunch in order to test it for function. (Gary recommends 500 malfunction free rounds, IIRC without cleaning, before carrying a particular load.) For the cleaning fetishists, I have run far more than that through a few pistols without problems, just making sure that they were adequately lubed. and note that Wilson Combat recommends 300 - 500 rounds through a new pistol before cleaning or any disassembly.
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Old 06-26-2017, 03:16 PM
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I asked a recent veteran about the 9mm FMJ over penetrating through the body. He said they went through like going through paper plates.
I am surprised to hear a 45acp went through a person. One of the reasons I quit carrying 357 mags was because reports of over penetration.

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Old 06-26-2017, 03:59 PM
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Yes, overpenetration is a concern. When NYPD switched over to 9mm semi-autos they issued FMJ. They ended up switching to JHP because they had several instances of FMJ rounds not only exiting bad guys, but continuing on and injuring bystanders and other officers.

As others have stated, there are other reasons to stick with JHP for self-defense use. 9mm FMJ makes narrow wound tracks that can "self-seal" to a certain extent because the elastic nature of tissue causes it to stretch before being penetrated, then springs back closed, minimizing trauma. Modern JHP do a good job of both penetrating and expanding, with some bullets recovered from actual shootings often looking like the expanded bullets from gel tests and marketing ads. The result is increased tissue trauma. And if they don't expand, the edge around the hollow cavity has a higher likelihood of causing trauma than FMJ due to a cookie-cutter effect. More trauma generally means better effectiveness in stopping an attacker.

JHP bullets also seem to have less ricochet potential. While this is often considered a benefit for misses or through-and-through shots, it can also improve effectiveness when bone is struck. Unless it hits the bone squarely, FMJ can ricochet off the bone and may not cause as much damage as a JHP whose edge can "bite" into the bone and damage it.

Have their been success with FMJ and failures with JHP? Sure. But I'd much rather have a round that gives me better odds of stopping an attacker.

JHP are not "magic" bullets. Don't count on "one-shot stops." A lot of variables are involved, such as the attacker's mental state, physiological state, physical build, drug use, etc. The only variables I can control are how well I can shoot and what type of ammo I use. I'll stick with JHP because they improve the odds of stopping an attacker, as well as reducing the odds of overpenetration.

Also, I've never understood the reasoning behind the "misses are more of an issue than overpenetration." Well, duh! How does that mean it's not a good idea to use JHP? I've never heard of anyone shooting well with FMJ ammo and then all of a sudden can't hit what they're aiming for with JHP. That's the only situation where that argument makes sense.

This is just my opinion. I'm sure plenty will disagree. Do your own research and come up with your own conclusions. However, I think you'll find that data supporting JHP as the best choice for a self-defense load.
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:44 PM
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https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/relo...rating-bullets
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Old 06-26-2017, 10:03 PM
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Yes possible but quality hollow points actually work better for self defense. Just like with hunting.....a quality soft point/hollow point kills dear better than a fmj.

Fmj just pokes small holes. Hollow points transfer energy better and do more damage

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Old 06-27-2017, 12:09 AM
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Statistically, over half of the shots fired in a typical gunfight miss their intended target completely, so when you put that in context, "over penetration" loses some of its importance. As always, be sure of what lies behind what you intend to shoot.
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Old 06-27-2017, 12:14 AM
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No fans of heavier, hard-cast semi-wadcutters? Have a chat with a few of the old-timers.

Also, I am a convert to going for the pelvic girdle first (Some of the BGs are now wearing armor!), and working my way up... if necessary.
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Old 06-27-2017, 12:16 AM
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So would it be better to carry 38 plus p than 357 jhp. Just curious. I know I wouldn't want shot with either. But.....
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Old 06-27-2017, 12:32 AM
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IIRC the nine bystanders were shot with JHP. The officer responsible can be seen in surveillance video shooting while running away. He was shooting wild, and reckless. The other officer on the other hand nailed the shooter by using good tactics.

I have not heard, or seen any citations of a lot of over penetration reports out of NYC. Most injuries are from missing the threat. If it is happening it sure is not being made public.

An interesting article on the shooting of innocent bystanders. Ready, Fire, Aim: The Science Behind Police Shooting Bystanders | TIME.com

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Old 06-27-2017, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by reddog81 View Post
I wouldn't be too concerned about it. You are much more likely to completely miss your target then over penetrate through a target, and you should be aware of what is directly behind your target anyways. Has there ever been a case where a 9mm round went completely through a person and then did serious damage to another individual? Lets say a bullet pentrates 12" all the way through the mid-section of a person and then exits doing around 200 FPS. Is that bullet going to have enough energy left to do serious damage?

Don't get me wrong I'd prefer a hollow point, but realistically the over penetration factor is just as likely to come out in your favor as is is to be a liability. It's probably more likely that another bad guy is standing directly behind bad guy #1 than a little old lady or an innocent baby.
In my house a person behind a bad guy or a wall is likely to be someone in my family. And on the street or in a public place, you have NO idea of who could be behind your target.
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Old 06-27-2017, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
IIRC the nine bystanders were shot with JHP. The officer responsible can be seen in surveillance video shooting while running away. He was shooting wild, and reckless. The other officer on the other hand nailed the shooter by using good tactics.

I have not heard, or seen any citations of a lot of over penetration reports out of NYC. Most injuries are from missing the threat. If it is happening it sure is not being made public.

An interesting article on the shooting of innocent bystanders. Ready, Fire, Aim: The Science Behind Police Shooting Bystanders | TIME.com
NEW YORK POLICE WILL START USING DEADLIER BULLETS - NYTimes.com
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Old 06-27-2017, 05:30 AM
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For the counter argument:

Geoff
Who is using Hornady Defense Lite, because my wife can shoot all the guns well with that load, in .38 Special and 9mm Luger.
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Old 06-27-2017, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTG_COLLECTOR View Post
Article is in 1998, the rash of innocent bystanders shootings are AFTER 1998.

In the case of the 9 bystanders the police commissioner claimed the injuries were from the "DEADLIER BULLETS" fragmenting.
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Old 06-27-2017, 08:29 AM
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Even if over penetration is complete BS hollow points still perform better than fmj

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Old 06-27-2017, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeptic 9c View Post
For the counter argument:
Internet Firearms BS : The Over Penetration Myth - YouTube

Geoff
Who is using Hornady Defense Lite, because my wife can shoot all the guns well with that load, in .38 Special and 9mm Luger.
Honestly I find him annoying, but sometimes he is spot on. This is one of those times. Carriers who are worried about innocent bystanders that much should only carry single shot pistols. That way they would be forced to hit their threat. Missing is, and has always been the problem. But the tactical ammo high capacity ammo dump folks do not want to talk about it.
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
In my house a person behind a bad guy or a wall is likely to be someone in my family. And on the street or in a public place, you have NO idea of who could be behind your target.
Is there any evidence out there of bullets penetrating through a person and then damaging someone else? Any bullet considered sufficient to incapacitate a person has the ability to over penetrate. The hollow point of a JHP can easily become plugged and fail to expand. What is the FBI standard – something like 18”. If you’re concerned about over penetration you might as well find the weakest .380 load and stick with that.
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:13 AM
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Even if over penetration is complete BS hollow points still perform better than fmj

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Yea sure, that is why hunters use hard cast lead for dangerous feral hogs. Lead has worked for over 200 years, yet numerous instances of HP not penetrating the threat.

It comes down to personal choice, and responsibility. It is fine to make those choices for your reasons. But Yankee Marshall made it clear he, like myself, have no problem with what others carry.
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:27 AM
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Not penetrating? As in bouncing off? Or under penetrating?

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Old 06-27-2017, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnie gore View Post
...all seven rounds went all the way through him, i was using full metal jacket 45 acp....
Big holes on both sides are fine by me. The more the inside of the bad guy leaks out, the faster he is likely to quit doing what made me shoot him in the first place.

I am always amused by comments about over penetration. Nobody seems to mention misses. You'd think those airballs that didn't get slowed down going through the crook would be even more worrisome to the proverbial little old lady down the street.
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Old 06-27-2017, 11:36 AM
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only my opinion, but when i'm at the point of loading one of my 9's for defense (whether carry or home), it will have jhp's in it. I want to be able to use "one" defensive ammo regardless of any situation I may be in, and from what i have gathered jhp will serve me best. And because I would be loaded for both home and carry, penetration would come into play for me.

I have zero problem having some mags with fmj for my range/fun time, and a couple set up for defense with the jhp's.

again just my .02
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Old 06-27-2017, 12:00 PM
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http://www.lightfighter(DOT)net/topi...f-defense-ammo. Replace the "DOT" with a ".". In that same subforum are multiple strings about .308, .5.56, 12 gauge, and BUG (.38/.380) ammo. This is vetted information from the successor to Dr. Fackler and leading expert on terminal ballistics today.
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Old 06-27-2017, 02:11 PM
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Over penetration? Over penetration? Over penetration? Over penetration? Over penetration?  
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I use handloaded hard cast swc in both 45acp and 38 special for everything: range, sd and critter work.

I'm pretty underwhelmed by hollow point stuff. It does great in ballistic gel, but I don't shoot much ballistic gel.

I've shot good sized critters with hp as well as hard cast swc's. The hard cast swc does much better.

Offhand, I don't recall an instance in which a legit sd shooting resulted in too much penetration and hurt the innocent bystander.

I am aware of lots of instances in which misses resulted in hitting an innocent bystander . A hp wouldn't have saved the innocent guy in those cases.
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Old 06-27-2017, 02:39 PM
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THE PILGRIM THE PILGRIM is online now
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Over penetration? Over penetration? Over penetration? Over penetration? Over penetration?  
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Shot a nice Buck with a 12 Ga Slug.
Big entry wound, no exit wound.
When I opened him up, the chest interior looked like cherry Jello.
Didn't find the slug.
Later that day, we were skinning him out.
The flattened slug fell to the ground on the entry side.
Apparently the slug went through the chest, hit a rib on the exit side and spun back through the chest.
Then it went between ribs on the entry side and stopped just under the skin.
So was that too much penetration?
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Old 06-27-2017, 03:19 PM
robertrwalsh robertrwalsh is offline
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Over penetration? Over penetration? Over penetration? Over penetration?  
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Overpenetration with 9mm military ball is a very real risk. Back when the NYPD first went to 9mm they carried military ball, against the STRONG OBJECTIONS of their own firearms people. First year they had three shoot-thrus killing one person and injuring two. The next year they went to JHP. It is a real issue.
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