I know, here we go again...

I've perused hundreds of forum posts here and elsewhere discussing the "best" defensive .38 ammo for snubbies. Yet I rarely find a consensus. So I'm curious what folks here like to carry since my 637 Gunsmoke (just a suped up 642 that I got for a good price) is in my daily EDC rotation.

My general thoughts are that although I can handle it, I don't need +P. I lean toward the heavier grain "punch" (for a sub-2-inch barrel) but I'm open to logic and reasoning otherwise.

Do you prefer HP or SWC?
Preferred grain?

Thanks- I'm eager to learn more.

There are a few that are very good but there is no one ammo that is heads and tails above all else.

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Real simple......Buffalo Bore 158 Grain SWCHP in +P pressure. This +P version will deliver over 1,000fps from a J frames 1-7/8" barrel.
I don't believe it is available in standard pressure?
FWIW: It's safe for use in modern J frames, and is not to harsh on recoil.

Congrats on your 637 GunSmoke.

Don't overthink it. You'll drive yourself nuts. No matter what you choose, some will say "great choice", others will say "bad choice".

Hardware doesn't win fights, tactics wins fights.

Good Luck & Stay Safe.

This is what I'd nearly decided before I thought I should get more opinions.

I appreciate the comment above about no singular .38 ammo being heads and shoulders above all others.

Thank you. I've had the Gunsmoke for a few years and would have been just as happy with a regular 642 (in fact I almost traded for one). But the Gunsmoke has broken in nicely over time, so I decided I may as well keep and carry it.

I'm not impressed with the various expanding offerings for handguns, particularly for snubbies: regardless of the marketing.

I much prefer my handloaded 158 gr hard cast swc ammo at about 800 fps. An effective alternative is 148 gr wc target ammo (I know it's not sexy but historically it works very well).

I've shot more than a few critters with a handgun and have been happier with hard cast swc ammo than anything else in flesh and bone applicants.

I know there are great ballistic gel photos and impressive energy and velocity numbers attached to gee whiz ammo but it is quite misleading. Momentum, not foot pounds is what counts. Ballistic gel isn't flesh and bone.

I carry Speer 135gr SB-GDHP +P in my 642-1. Controllable, accurate, and a proven track record in actual shootings.

A close second would be Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP standard pressure. The standard pressure load produces the same velocity as other makers' FBI loads. FBI loads, in general, have also established a good track record in actual shootings. With regards to the BB ammo, even though it says "standard pressure", I treat it as +P. I tried the +P version and there's just too much recoil for me to get quick, accurate follow-up shots. FWIW, I also made the same choice when I had steel K-frames. YMMV.

I also think it's hard to go wrong with anything Dr. Roberts recommends. Google "Dr. Roberts ammo" and you should be able to find a list of loads he recommends.

My own personal preference is for medium-to-heavy bullet weights for self defense, so in .38 Special that'd be 125-158gr. They tend to do a better job of balancing expansion with adequate penetration. HP are a much better choice than solid bullets, unless the available HP loads are too much for one to handle. And if the heavier bullet weights are too much to handle, I see no problem with going light if it allows one to get good, quick hits on target.

While reliability and accuracy are more important than terminal performance, I see no reason not to use a good HP load if you can shoot it well (unless you're trapped living in someplace like NJ).

Try a variety of standard pressure loads. Whatever you shoot best is the right ammo.

Welcome to the Forum!!!

We all have our favorite loads, all of those listed above are good. Whatever you can shoot best, and shoots to point of aim is probably best for you. As was noted above, by scorpion, tactics are important. Ammunition is only one part of the equation, although an important part.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

My J and K frames seem to like a 158 best for accuracy - whether factory or handload so I buy and reload 158s in a variety of configurations from lead to JHP

I used to like the Federal Nyclad round. Not sure why. Maybe just because it was blue.

What type of expansion or deformation (in soft tissue) does one see from a SWC bullet? Does it depend one what, other than flesh(bone) it may hit?

Also, does anyone have experience with the Fort Scott Munitions 81 gr. lead free .38? I've carried it occasionally in my snubbie as well as carried the 80 gr. 9mm. I know it's easily dismissed as a gimmick but having shot them both my observations are:

Easy, relatively soft shooting
Hard hitting- enjoyed a bounce back at 15 yards off a steel target; passed to my right thankfully although I could have caught it bare hand with no issues
No idea on the "tumble upon impact" as I was shooting water jugs and other targets
Definitely light weight in terms of carry in the cylinder or magazine

Regardless, I'm leaning away from Fort Scott because of over-penetration concerns. I think overall their ammunition is pretty impressive- I also have some of their 124 gr. 10mm and it falls along the same performance lines as above (albeit much bigger power) and I'd be fine with their 5.56/.223 rounds. I just have questions about the general incapacitation capabilities of the smaller calibers (outside of a CNS shot) if the stuff just zips right through.

I don't have any experience with it, but there are much better choices. I doubt that a FMJ round that light and fast would be effective at physiologically incapacitating an attacker, and overpenetration would definitely be a concern.

I prefer sticking with rounds that have a good track record in actual shootings, or at least rounds that perform similarly.

There are also good quality standard pressure defensive loads. The Federal 125gr Nyclad is a favorite of mine, but they're often unavailable, maybe even discontinued. I still have a few boxes left (and no, you can't have any! ). I believe Hornady has some offerings, but I'm not that familiar with them. If I were going to get a currently-available standard pressure load, I would probably check out Winchester's 130gr Defend JHP as it seems to perform decently.

I don't expect much, if any, deformation from a hard cast swc. That's the point.

Unlike ballistic gel, living targets have bones, cartilage and varying consistencies of soft tissue (consider the difference between air filled lungs and stomach/gut contents).

The objective is to smash through bones, etc and penetrate to and through vital organs.

The swc produces a great wound canal due to the sharp cutting shoulder.

Heavier bullets penetrate much better than light bullets. Chasing velocity with light bullets is a fool's errand.

Buy a box of the popular Rem/WW/Fed/Horn/BB,etc. and shoot them in your gun to see which is best in accuracy, handling, extraction, recoil. The one best in those categories should be your choice. Don't skimp on price since you will be defending your/your families lives.

I've tested lots of high end rounds but none really seem to do much more than punch holes in stuff...granted I don't have any scientific methods to my testing, just water jugs and foam blocks etc.

I'm still looking for the "magic" bullet for my j frames...maybe I'll find one, definitely let you guys know when I do

Until then I'll stick with Buffalo Bore or Remington 158grn swchp's, they are accurate and have a good real world track record....and I can find cheap swc ammo that shoots the same as my carry rounds.

Welcome to the Neighborhood!

I'll second Continental Ops in post #8. My bug is a 637 that's similar to your Gunsmoke edition in that I bobbed the hammer spur. I run the Speer GD Short Barrel 135 grain ammo in it, and as reloads for both the 637 and my primary carry, a 640-1, for the same reasons that Continental Ops stated.

If you are going to shoot lead, the FBI 158gr HP is king of the hill.

In the JHP department the Speer 135gr is a top seller.

Thank you all for your responses. I've seen a better set of suggestions and near consensus here than in years of searching the forums.

Next thing you know, this group will try to displace my Glocks and HK semis with M&Ps!

I ordered the BB 158 gr. SWC (as well as the BB 180 gr. hardcast Outdoorsman .357 for my 686+ 4-inch). I'll probably keep some Speer Gold Dot .38 around too. It's hard to go wrong with such choices. As with anything, it comes down to competence and confidence- the two go hand in hand so regardless of the caliber, training is paramount. Some days, I like to only shoot my J-frame to train specifically for its use. I look forward to learning from this group and sharing my experiences.

It all comes down to what ammo/load that you feel comfortable with.

One family member with a 38 airlight can only handle the 125gr Remington GS
for her SD loading.

Good luck with your quest.

Interesting, I was unaware of such a load but I'll check this one out. I've been ccw'ing Federal 158-gr+P SWCLHP, the old Chicago load in my 442 on the occasion that I carry it (generally in warmer months).

There isn't any testing out there that I can find, but the 125 gr Buffalo Bore 38 special hollow point is a good round. I believe the projectile is the 125 gr Gold Dot sourced by BB from Speer. There are both standard pressure and +P versions, but the standard pressure is fast enough it should expand.

Carry the ammo that's most accurate in your revolver because the best bullet in the world will do you no good unless you make good hits.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

No need to look farther than the Buffalo Bore 158 grain +P LSWCHP-GC OR the Speer 135 grain +P GDHP. If you do not want +Ps, then BB also makes the same load in a lower velocity but still has 860 fps and is still a LSWCHP.

The loads above are more than accurate enough for SD/HD usage. In fact, the BB's are SPOT ON while the GD's shoot a tiny bit low (1/2") - but a non issue at 15 feet from a Chief's Spl.

I say carry what you shoot well. Accuracy is more important than power. Myself, I carry 158 LSWCHP+P, but I also will carry just plain old non-+P LSWC. I figure if I have to defend myself it will be at close range.

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Support your Police, & NRA

Agreed.

Many internet "theorists" like to expound upon capacity and accuracy at distances greater than 21 feet as requirements for a self defense pistol. Aside from the legal implications of shooting someone in "self defense" at those distances, the data confirms that most SD scenarios occur at "reach out and touch someone" range- perfect for the "belly guns-" distances that do not require sight aiming or more than 1-2 shots.

I have in the past practiced shooting my 2" Chief's at up to 50 yards at a man sized Silhouette Target. Amazingly, after just a shot or two you can consistently hit a man sized target even at the 150 foot mark. NOT saying a 2" Chief's is a great gun to do that with at that distance, but anyone who shoots PPC SHOULD try to go through the course with a 2" J Frame IF that is what you normally carry. If nothing else it will give you a sense of where to hold the farther you go out.

Yes, I usually practice with my M60-7 at 5 and 7 yards, but like to challenge myself on occasion at greater distances.

I also like to test myself with my J-frame at distances greater than 7 yards. I don't fixate on the groupings but like to see the shots on target within a 2-4 inch group. I figure even at close SD distances the shots must be within that 2-4 inch group to be effective, i.e. threat-stopping.

Not sure what you mean by 'best defensive load.' My definition is a cool head, willing to pull the trigger and making your first shot count. Given that, almost any 38 spl load will do the job for you. Select whichever you can hit with the best, stick to it and do a lot of practice.
In my working years I carried a 2" model 36 with either 200 grain Super Police loads, or the standard 158 gr. Today mostly the 158gr in my 649-2. I try to stay with the same weight of bullet since varying weights will shoot differently and require re-sighting of my laser sight.

It is available in standard pressure...
Buffalo Bore® Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Pistol & Handgun Ammunition
Underwood Ammo® 38 Special 158 Grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point Gas Check

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

Chief38:

I couldn't agree more!! I became a police firearms instructor in 1977 (good lord, that was 40 years ago...where did they go?). I attended numerous shooting schools, including S&W Academy, NRA Police Instructor School, our State Police shooting school, and others. Also, as an instructor, I had access to virtually unlimited .38 wadcutter ammunition. And lots of time and opportunity to shoot. Back then we all shot a variation of the PPC, which included 7, 15, 25, abd 50 yard shooting, and when training at the State Police range, they threw in firing at 60 yards as well.

Back then I was raising a family on a patrolman's salary, and only had one "off duty" gun, a .38 special S&W Model 60, which I bought new in 1976, and still have (see photo below). Anyway, I shot this gun a lot!! I had two issued duty guns, both Model 66s, and we mostly shot these with the .38 wadcutters as well, with some full house .357s thrown in.



Anyway.... The point is, since this was my only off duty gun, and I had lots of time and ammunition, I shot it a lot, and from all of those distances. It was amazingly accurate (of course I could actually see the sights back then). I would hesitate to even state what my smallest group was at 50 yards, because after all this time, even I have trouble believing how small a group these little revolvers are capable of firing. Not just for me, but for anyone who cares to put in the time and effort, and spend the money for practice ammo.

I haven't shot at 50 yards with this little gun for a long time now, but I'll bet I can't come close to what I could do then, because I have gotten used to shooting at much shorter distances, and my eyesight isn't what it was back then.

But if the goal, as the OP's screen name implies, is "shot placement", then lots of practice is necessary. And that is just to achieve accuracy under optimum conditions, without the debilitating effects of stress, poor lighting, surprise, danger, and so forth.

But most quality guns are, in the hands of those who are willing to put in the time, capable of extraordinary accuracy. It is up to us to attain proficiency through practice. After that, as others have said, most commercial ammunition, and quality handloads are going to be able to to the job.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

My advice is a little different.
Your firearm has multiple rounds in it.
Be sure to just shoot multiple rounds until your threat is no longer a threat to you.
That is why your firearm has this capability. USE IT !

It's settled- I'm moving to Gun Barrel City, TX!