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Old 08-27-2017, 07:52 PM
otis24 otis24 is offline
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Default .22 LR Self-defense rounds.

I hope to be obtaining an M&P .22 pistol in the next couple of days. Besides being a plinker, it may also serve as a CCW/self-defense pistol for my wife on the rare occasion that she travels by herself or serve as mine if she happens to take my Shield. What .22 Long Rifle round would be best for self-defense? I do not that the .22 is not ideal for self-defense. I live in an area where crime is not generally an issue.
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Old 08-27-2017, 08:06 PM
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Simple answer is the one that's most accurate...I don't think bullet performance is going to make that big a difference in a self defense situation using a .22lr
Multiple fast hits in vital places are going to be the key.

Of course as with any caliber/gun...function will trump everything else. Has to go bang every time.

I've always had good luck with CCI's ammo.

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Old 08-27-2017, 08:29 PM
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Almost anything from CCI as long as it works in your gun, but I'd recommend running at least 100 rounds through it first.
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Old 08-27-2017, 08:43 PM
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During warm Texas weather when the uniform of the day is t-shirt and shorts I pocket carry a Ruger SR22 with 10 Stingers in the mag and one in the chamber.I think I can put all 11 in my target and reload the spare mag from another pocket if needed.
I replaced the polymer guide rod with a stainless.
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Old 08-27-2017, 09:05 PM
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Being a bullseye shooter, accuracy is everything but in self defense it means little. Most self defense shootings take place at feet not yard distances. About any 22 ammo is accurate enough. I study terminal ballistics and have over 100 bullets recovered from downed game animals. When I guided elk and deer hunters, I carried a 22 pistol to finish off wounded animals. Conservatively I have used it on a minimum of 50 deer, elk and antelope. I mention all of this to put validity in my statements. The 22 lr is under rated as a killing cartridge. It has great penetration capabilities often equaling many bigger self defense rounds. Stopping power it lacks though unless spine or head is hit. But it will kill you and get in deep. Shooting hundreds of rounds each year I have a preference in reliable ignition and CCI tops my list. You cant go wrong with their stuff. Their stingers are impressive expanders even with short barrel guns. I often carry a Walther TPH in 22 lr as my carry gun. I load alternately, one CCI Stinger, then a CCI solid, then Stinger, ect. Twenty twos in the hands of a novice are dangerous as they are easy to teach and the new shooters have no fear of recoil or noise. Ten rounds can be sent downrange accurately in a blink of an eye with a 22. Earnest Hemmingway was a found believer in the Colt Woodsman as well as African profession white hunter Joe Coogan. Both used them extensively. Earnest was quoted as saying, "Put me in the corner of a boxing ring with a Colt Woodsman and 10 rounds of solid ammo, put the worlds heavyweight boxer in the other corner. Ring the bell and I will have him dead before he reaches center ring". Because they are so easy to shoot accurately and fast they are deadlier than many think.
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Old 08-27-2017, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old cop View Post
Almost anything from CCI as long as it works in your gun, but I'd recommend running at least 100 rounds through it first.
CCI is what I see recommended the most. Forget about hollow points expanding. What to look for first is reliable, consistent, then velocity to get penetration.
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Old 08-27-2017, 09:09 PM
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Reliable would be my first concern. Concerns about adequacy of penetration would cause me to reject hollow points and lean toward flat nosed rounds. CCI's SGB may be something to consider trying in your gun to see about accuracy and reliability.
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Old 08-27-2017, 09:30 PM
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I'm facing the same issue with my wife. I'm looking at either CCI Velocitors or Aguila Interceptors. Based on everything I've been able to find online (ballistics tests, etc), I expect roughly 1100fps from a 3" revolver barrel from either of them. On paper, the Interceptors are a little faster, but I have more experience with, and trust in CCI.
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Old 08-27-2017, 09:34 PM
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I've heard it said that trauma surgeons find wounds from a .22 rimfire more difficult to repair than wounds from a .38 SPL. However, this information is dated and was common before JHPs found their way to the .38 SPL.
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Old 08-27-2017, 10:14 PM
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Shot placement and operational reliability are what you need with a .22 carried for defense. Personally I would stay away from HP rounds because you will likely get inadequate penetration even with a good hit.
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Old 08-27-2017, 11:10 PM
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When my brother's wife (CHL holder) decided she wanted to carry a 22 LR I did a test with several brands for penetration. I shot gallon water jugs with a 2" barrel at 10 feet. All the 37-42 grain high velocity rounds I tried shot through the jugs. So I gave her a box of CCI Mini-Mag 40 grain because they have been the most reliable.
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Old 08-27-2017, 11:19 PM
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HP's tend to dump their energy too soon, you want penetration.

I like CCI 40 Gr. solid Mini-Mags
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Old 08-28-2017, 01:04 AM
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CCI mini-mags 40 gr solids as well and for as long as I can remember.
With our Beretta Bobcats, one in each hand, sending them down range RAPIDLY!!!
Just as much fun as handloads with a 1911 in each hand.
Only have one 4" 629.

My boy's first day carrying with a High Standard Derringer in
22 Mag.
What do I do if there are three BGs.... he asked?
Wait until two are in line..... I replied.... and gave him the
M59.
What... no JHPs .... he argued.
He bought his first pistol later that week.... a 45ACP Glock 36.
Shoots nice with our XTP loads.
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Old 08-28-2017, 01:58 AM
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I like CCIs, too, for their accuracy and reliability. All shoot well out of my Ruger Standard. Here is a comparison of the ballistic data from CCI Mini-Mag round-nose solid point, Velocitor HP, and Stinger HP rounds:

CCI: Compare Loads

The Stinger and Velocitor have considerably more energy than the Mini-Mag, and the Velocitor retains the most energy down range. Although the Stinger emits a really cool flame from the end of my barrel, I think I'd lean toward the Velocitor as an sd round.
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Old 08-28-2017, 06:15 AM
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I FAVOR CCI .22 LR AMMO, BECAUSE OF ITS RELIABILITY, AND ACCURACY. ITS THE ONLY BRAND THAT I SHOOT. IMHO, EITHER VELOCITORS, STNGERS, OR EVEN THE 40 GR SOLID MINI-MAGS, IN THAT ORDER OF PREFERENCE, WILL GET THE JOB DONE.......
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Old 08-28-2017, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30-30remchester View Post
Being a bullseye shooter, accuracy is everything but in self defense it means little. Most self defense shootings take place at feet not yard distances. About any 22 ammo is accurate enough. I study terminal ballistics and have over 100 bullets recovered from downed game animals. When I guided elk and deer hunters, I carried a 22 pistol to finish off wounded animals. Conservatively I have used it on a minimum of 50 deer, elk and antelope. I mention all of this to put validity in my statements. The 22 lr is under rated as a killing cartridge. It has great penetration capabilities often equaling many bigger self defense rounds. Stopping power it lacks though unless spine or head is hit. But it will kill you and get in deep. Shooting hundreds of rounds each year I have a preference in reliable ignition and CCI tops my list. You cant go wrong with their stuff. Their stingers are impressive expanders even with short barrel guns. I often carry a Walther TPH in 22 lr as my carry gun. I load alternately, one CCI Stinger, then a CCI solid, then Stinger, ect. Twenty twos in the hands of a novice are dangerous as they are easy to teach and the new shooters have no fear of recoil or noise. Ten rounds can be sent downrange accurately in a blink of an eye with a 22. Earnest Hemmingway was a found believer in the Colt Woodsman as well as African profession white hunter Joe Coogan. Both used them extensively. Earnest was quoted as saying, "Put me in the corner of a boxing ring with a Colt Woodsman and 10 rounds of solid ammo, put the worlds heavyweight boxer in the other corner. Ring the bell and I will have him dead before he reaches center ring". Because they are so easy to shoot accurately and fast they are deadlier than many think.
As far as accuracy goes, the case could be made that in most defensive shooting situations, you don't even need rifling.
Tight grouping ability matters little.
Point of impact coinciding somewhat with the sights is a somewhat different matter.
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Old 08-28-2017, 08:31 AM
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FWIW ,, thru my chrony: ( ammo tested from several years ago,,)

3.5" Bersa Thunder .22
Rem. 36gr Golden Bullet - 857 fps.
CCI 40gr HP Velocitor - 982 fps.
CCI 32 gr. Stinger - 1171 fps.

6 7/8" Ruger MkII
Federal 40 gr Std. Vel. - 1007 fps.
Winchester 40gr Super X - 1041 fps.
PMC Sindwinder - 1110 fps.
CCI 32gr Stinger - 1298 fps.

There are some very interesting .22 ammo tests on youtube by tnoutdoors9

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Old 08-28-2017, 08:36 AM
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The gun I have in the house for my wife is a M & P 22C is loaded with CCI 40 grain Mini Mags. I've tried to move her up in caliber but she is so recoil sensitive I'm letting her stick with the 22. And after a year of shooting she's gotten so good with it I'm confident that she could place quite a few rounds on target if needed.
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Old 08-28-2017, 08:53 AM
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Based on another recent thread ..... I'd recommend a mix of CCI Velocitors and Stingers..... with a Velocitor chambered for 10+1.

Velocitor's are designed for better penetration while the Stingers are a better expanding round .

Have her practice..... strings of 4-6 rounds rapid fire.

While not ideal...... I'd rather my wife have her M&P Compact .22 with her .... than knowing her 2" model 10 is at home!!!!!

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Old 08-28-2017, 09:07 AM
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I had the same question about ammo when arthritis in my hands steadily forced me downgrade caliber sizes over years. I ended up with 22 in an M&P 22 Compact. I am a dilgent researcher. Explored that option for weeks before acting. I started a long thread on the topic in the concealed carry forum.

My decision was to use CCI Mini Mag HP. It was one of the very few 22 rounds that expanded in gel out of 3.5 inch barrel. You can see that test at brasscatcher.com. Continuing research led me to really check out CCI Velocitor. I found good reason to use it. It expands but takes in more of wad cutter shape than a mushroom shape. There is a high likely hood it would tumble after penetrating. It can penetrate up to 13 inches in gel.

With the 22 for self defense the key is accuracy and penetration and Velocitor will give you penetration. Accuracy is a variable depending ob gun and shooter.

I had not gone to 380 because the pocket pistols were blowback and because of the weakness in my hands I had real problems racking them. Recently I learned of the Remington 380 being a locked breech design that is the easiest pocket pistol to rack. I tried it at my LGS and then rented it to try at the range. It was perfect. Great all metal, made in USA pistol with almost no recoil, and I can rack it with finger and thumb alone. Now I carry it daily.
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Old 08-28-2017, 12:16 PM
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There might be significant differences in performance of various .22LR ammo in rifles, but in handguns any performance differences are likely to be very slight. You simply cannot achieve maximum performance from any common .22LR handgun barrel length.

Shot placement will be the key for any potential defensive use.

In my experience (probably a dozen different .22LR handguns over the past 48 years) .22 rimfire handguns are all picky about ammo. What works well in one pistol is just as likely to fail in another.

I would suggest purchasing at least 100 rounds of each premium .22LR ammo (not bulk packs or promotional packs), then carefully evaluate reliability and accuracy in your pistol. When you have decided which functions best I suggest that you purchase a significant quantity of the same production lot number, then use that for practice and carry until it has been used up. Then you will have to go through the process again because performance from different production runs can vary widely.
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:25 AM
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While .22 would be my last choice to use for SD, IF I HAD TO I'd use the CCI Velocitor. It is the highest velocity 40 grain bullet out there AFAIK. CCI is also the most reliable .22 Rimfire I have used.
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:15 PM
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I might give the CCI a try. I have had good results with the Aguila Interceptors at the range with both the .22 Compact and the SW22.
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:23 PM
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My wife carries CCI Stingers in her 22.
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:02 PM
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Of course reliability is key. If I were to carry a 22LR for SD I would load it with CCI Velocitor ammo. A 40gr bullet with a MV of 1435 fps is no joke.
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:56 PM
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How about the Aguila 60 grain sub-sonic @ 950 fps ? Some tumbling issues , but at short range it's stopping power is measurably greater.
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Old 08-29-2017, 09:16 PM
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I have a prewar Woodsman originally owned by a preditor control guy in the 1950's and early '60's here in Colorado.

He killed black bear, cougar, bobcat, coyotes and foxes with it using standard velocity solids.

Didn't seem to need Hi velocity or hollow point ammo.

In a handgun, you won't get improved performance from gee whiz 22 ammo.

If the ammo functions in the gun, it's good enough for sd.
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
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I have a prewar Woodsman originally owned by a preditor control guy in the 1950's and early '60's here in Colorado.

He killed black bear, cougar, bobcat, coyotes and foxes with it using standard velocity solids.

Didn't seem to need Hi velocity or hollow point ammo.

In a handgun, you won't get improved performance from gee whiz 22 ammo.

If the ammo functions in the gun, it's good enough for sd.
Sounds like my friend named Bud. He carried pre war Woodsman, across Colorado as a trapper and mail carrier. From the 1930's Bud carried this gun exclusively . It was so worn that you could see metal showing under the wood grips. I have carried a pre war for the last 30+ years. I have done some things I wont mention here.
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Old 08-30-2017, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n c rod View Post
How about the Aguila 60 grain sub-sonic @ 950 fps ? Some tumbling issues , but at short range it's stopping power is measurably greater.
Kind of like the British 38/200 - big and slow! It worked for them around the world.
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Old 08-30-2017, 12:17 PM
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I posted my say up-thread at #7. I'm just commenting again because of some of the velocities they're posting. I'd encourage people to chronograph their rounds out of their guns, because I've run a lot of .22 LR over screens from handguns, and there is a mighty big difference between what companies represent their rounds do from a rifle barrel and what they actually do from your handgun.


Edited c. 1345 MDT to include the following for-instance:
For instance - last spring I ran a bunch of ammo through my LCR-22 with the 1 7/8" tube.
The range was about 80F, 36% humidity, 5950'>sea level.
CCI 40-gr RNL Mean velocity 927.6 feet per second/Extreme spread 142.3/Standard deviation 50.63
CCI 40-gr copper plated RN M 945.21/ES 56.90/SD 21.19
CCI Blazer 40-gr RNL M 880.2/ES 14.40/SD 9.89
S&B 38-gr RNL M 943.02/ES 128.40/SD 50.50
Geco 40-gr Semi-Auto RNL M 890.5/ES 28.3/SD 19.99
Lapua 40-gr RNL Subsonic 806.9/55.11/24.28
Eley Club 40-gr RNL 901.2
Winchester bulk 36-gr plated HP 951.2/90.42/29.52
Aguila Super Extra 40-gr RNL plated: 934.1/84.81/31.85
Remington 40-gr RNL Target 877.6/91.98/32.96
Eley Sport 40-gr RNL (made by Aguila in Mexico) 830.1/88.46/25.74
Wolf Match Extra 40-gr RNL 858.0/60.31/19.77
Winchester T22 Target 40-gr RNL 868.1/48.12/22.44
CCI Stinger 32-gr plated HP 1112/140.5/61.85
Aguila SSS 60-gr RNL 757.6/31.28/13.49

From an SR22P on an earlier trip (65F, c. 15% humidity, same range)

CCI Minimag 40-gr RN plated: M 977.9 fps/ES 103.1/SD 30.77
Aguila Super Extra Alta Velocidad 40-gr RN plated: M 1009/ES 21.55/SD 9.43
Aguila Interceptor 40-gr RN plated: M 1098/ES 96.26/SD 39.82
CCI Velocitor 40-gr plated HP: M 994.2/ES 135.7/SD 57.93
CCI Minimag 36-gr plated HP: M 976.3/ES 65.62/SD 26.07
CCI SGB 40-gr lead flat nose: M 971.8/ES 48.04/SD 20.80
Federal Automatch 40-gr RNL: M 995.7/ES 40.92/SD 16.24
(same): M 996.6/ES 10.67/SD 4.69
Winchester Super-X 40-gr RN plated: M 931.0/ES 132.7/SD 59.36
Aguila SSS 60-gr RNL: M 831.4/ES 9.45/SD 3.87
CCI Stinger 32-gr plated HP: M 1127/ES 208.5/SD 90.71
CCI Quik-Shok 32-gr segmented plated HP: M 1159/ES 56.05/SD 24.06
CCI Blazer 40-gr RNL: M 979.0/ES 75.54/SD 29.00
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Last edited by Erich; 08-30-2017 at 03:45 PM. Reason: Edited to add chronograph data
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Old 08-30-2017, 01:05 PM
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Erich makes an excellent point. One of the reasons I use a 4in barrel with my Ruger pistol to shoot suppressed is because HV ammo (usually rated around 1250fps) will shoot subsonic-- under 1100fps. With all the unburned powder enter in the suppressor it gets toasty hot.
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Old 08-30-2017, 01:14 PM
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Reliability, velocity and penetration are the 3 keys to .22 LR performance in a self-defense role. Accuracy at self-defense distances is secondary.

I agree with Erich, that solids will offer better penetration - the hollow points not so much.

The guru of gurus, Jeff Cooper, believed that the best tactic for using a .22 against 2-legged beasts is to shoot for the eye sockets. And I would add, keep shooting...

John
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Old 08-30-2017, 04:58 PM
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Erich, any chance of seeing the Velocitor and Interceptor from the LCR?
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Old 08-31-2017, 01:34 AM
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What Erich posted above is exactly why I suggested the Velocitor ammo, not because it's a wiz-bang .22 round. I also like the 40gr bullet better than the 32gr bullet of the Stinger from a handgun.
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Old 08-31-2017, 10:13 AM
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Erich, any chance of seeing the Velocitor and Interceptor from the LCR?
Maybe someday, but the chances of it making it into this thread are pretty much nil. Sorry - just too many things to do!
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Old 09-08-2017, 08:40 PM
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It would seem to me that the big thing with using 22's for SD is the cartridge going bang. With all the comments I've read on different forums about FTFs does anyone have a brand or specific loading they have never had a problem with? I believe match ammo would be at the top of the list of 100% reliability to go bang. Having a misfire in a match is a lot more serious than missing a squirrel. I've been using CCI SGB as well a Eley target as my go to defense round. Comments? Suggestions?
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Old 09-08-2017, 09:17 PM
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If you're down to 22lr for self defense out of a handgun, you've got bigger problems. Buy reliable ammo, make sure you can hit vital areas, and pray.
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:26 PM
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A neighbor, who is kindly teaching me to be an eccenrtic old coot like him, carries a Ruger Mk1 in a shoulder holster. He can put all ten into one of those florecent 1.5"-2" stickers in about 5 seconds at 35-40 feet. If I could do that I would feel pretty confident with a .22.
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Old 09-09-2017, 01:56 PM
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On the net, You-tube........
a test was done with a pistol and rifle per post #14 cci ammo.

Sheetrock was spaced with a 2x4 section, to see how far the bullets would penetrate.

The average for both was at least eight (8) sheets.........
for what ever that is worth.
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Old 09-09-2017, 03:15 PM
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Britbike has the salient point, reliability! I'd go with CCI solids as they seem the most reliable for me. Current production .22 has gotten less reliable than it used to be, in my experience at least. Many sneer at the .25ACP but it is my belief that it is more reliable than .22 due to having as actual primer.
It isn't always a "one shot stop" but in a Frankfurt bar I saw a German woman put one into the back of her boyfriend at contact distance and all the big *** said was "oof" as he went down.
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Old 09-11-2017, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by britbike1 View Post
It would seem to me that the big thing with using 22's for SD is the cartridge going bang. With all the comments I've read on different forums about FTFs does anyone have a brand or specific loading they have never had a problem with? I believe match ammo would be at the top of the list of 100% reliability to go bang. Having a misfire in a match is a lot more serious than missing a squirrel. I've been using CCI SGB as well a Eley target as my go to defense round. Comments? Suggestions?
I would trust anything Eley primed. I've shot a lot of Aguila SV & HV & it always goes bang.

As I understand it CCI uses a priming process somewhat similar to the Eley. I would not be uncomfortable trusting my life to MiniMags. We put 500 40gr MiniMags through the wife's brand new Mosquito (notoriously picky) and I kind of think there was one malf, she said there were zero.
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Old 09-18-2017, 09:37 PM
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Interesting topic, as my daughter has mentioned wanting to get her concealed carry permit. I have a Charter Arms Pathfinder in .22 that I'm training her on. I also just picked up a S&W M&P 22 Compact. Both shoot Mini Mags extremely well and I don't think I'd want to be shot by either of them.
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Old 09-18-2017, 11:16 PM
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I would use a CCI Stinger hollow point. Very nasty little round. No it's not a .45 but a hit with a Stinger beats a miss with a .45 any day of the week.
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Old 09-18-2017, 11:23 PM
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Pick the one that functions the best in the gun it is to be used in.
Hollow point/solid, doesn't matter.

Neither does accuracy. They all shoot good enough.
You don't really even need rifling, since almost all shooting encounters happen at conversational distance, and often even contact distance.
The slightly hotter loads with their increased recoil impulse tends to ensure better feeding and ejection in automatics.

Again, don't get wrapped around the axle about accuracy.
FUNCTION is most important.
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