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  #51  
Old 09-22-2017, 01:58 PM
Dpris Dpris is offline
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It's jacketed, not plated, and it did shoot closer to POA through my Colt than I'd expected.
Denis
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  #52  
Old 09-22-2017, 02:13 PM
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I carry my trusty 638 with a 2.5" bbl every single day at work as a police officer. It's my BUG and it will do the job required. Besides, most documented cases of officers using their BUG's were up close, very personal and usually after the proverbial "feces hit the fan".

My dept. thankfully issues the Speer .38SPL+P 135gr. GDHP-SB load that has worked quite well. It's also my to and from work gun since a Glock 35 with a TLR1 is not fun to pack around concealed.

I read an NYPD Det. used the aforementioned Speer load on a miscreant in the subway from a 1-7/8" J frame. The suspect was DRT after it punched thru the perp's arm. It worked as advertised.

That new 'Micro' round looks suspiciously like an old lead HBWC round to me?
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Last edited by PR24; 09-22-2017 at 02:29 PM.
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  #53  
Old 09-22-2017, 02:20 PM
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Keep in mind folks; ALL HANDGUN ROUNDS SUCK! With that said, I have posted before on this forum my own experiences on the streets particularly 2 incidents I was involved in.

First case: A dude survived a .45 ACP Starfire round just under his sternum, lived to testify against his attacker. Should have been dead! But he wasn't...

Second case: A portly gent sustained a GSW to his gut (lower right abdomen) from a .22LR fired from a shoddy old SA revolver by his drunken nephew. He bled to death internally and died in front of me. Autopsy revealed his liver was eviscerated by the tiny bullet ergo the fatal blood loss.

One never knows, bullets do weird things when they leave the muzzle. Just aim for the largest target on the perp and make your shots count. All pistol loadings SUCK for self defense. We are all behind the 8 ball with a handgun. Simple hard truth.
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  #54  
Old 09-22-2017, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PR24 View Post
That new 'Micro' round looks suspiciously like an old lead HBWC round to me?
(In robot voice) No, it is a com-ple-t-ley new tech-nol-ogy, jus-ti-fying its com-ple-t-ley new price. Sin-cere-ly Mar-ket-ing.
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  #55  
Old 09-22-2017, 03:45 PM
Dpris Dpris is offline
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Buy it or don't.
I'm not trying to sell it, and I'm not getting into caliber wars.

I AM, in response to the original post, mentioning the test results I got with this load, and discussing technical aspects.

It's a new adaptation in using a jacketed mostly-flat-nosed HP, which can be driven faster than the old soft lead wadcutter.

It's seated mostly flush, to reduce internal air space & keep powder burn more consistent through a variety of different angled shooting positions.
This is actually a valid concept.

It does maintain decent velocities through a short snub barrel, traveling faster & with more terminal energy than a target wadcutter in factory ammunition.

It does, based on limited water-jugging, expand & penetrate well, a good combination of two desirable features in a defensive load.

Aside from handloads, which are not the subject of this thread, show me similar velocities, expansion, and penetration in a FACTORY 148-grain lead full-wadcutter load.
Even show me a factory-made reversed wadcutter load that can match the HST in performance.
Even if we open up to handloaded reversed wadcutters, show me the results of accuracy, velocity, expansion, and penetration there-of, and then we can talk further.

If you don't like the HST, move on.
We've discussed it technically here, because some ARE interested.
If you're not one of those, no need for you to pay any more attention.

And another installment of "Which Caliber's Better?" also has no place in this conversation.
It'll never be resolved & the original post's question didn't ask it.
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  #56  
Old 09-22-2017, 08:43 PM
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Very well said, Dpris.
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  #57  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:18 PM
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I saw this ammo today at Walmart, about $25 for 20 rounds.
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  #58  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PR24 View Post
Keep in mind folks; ALL HANDGUN ROUNDS SUCK!
I don't know who started that saying but I totally disagree with it.
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  #59  
Old 09-24-2017, 11:35 PM
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I posted this elsewhere in this forum, my previous test results:

Federal 38spl + P HST Micro

Well I had a chance to chronograph this ammo. At about a buck a round, I only shot five through each of three guns. Not truly scientific with such a small sample, but it appears to be right on for factory claims regarding consistency of velocity, but in my 2" & 3" guns the velocity is well below the factory published number of 890 fps. I do not see on Federals website what barrel length or type they are using for their numbers.

2" S&W M337:
High 800 fps
Low 799 fps
Yes, a total for five shots of 1 fps variance.

3" Custom Colt Agent:
High 859 fps
Low 855 fps
Extreme spread of 4 fps.

4" S&W M67:
High 889 fps
Low 885 fps
Extreme spread of 4 fps.

Just for a control group, I then fired five Federal 148gr HBWC Gold Metal Match through the M67 for an average velocity of 753 fps and an extreme spread of 26 fps and a standard deviation of 10 fps. This M67 will shoot into 3.5" at 50 yards with the FGMM ammo off of sandbags.

Ammo lot # R12P1394144 Federal Premium P38HST1S 130gr HSP JHP 130gr
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  #60  
Old 09-25-2017, 12:40 AM
Dpris Dpris is offline
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The 2-inch results are right in line with my figures through my Colt.

The small variations in shot-to-shot velocities bear out Federal's reason for seating so deep- consistency in positional powder burn rates.
Denis
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  #61  
Old 09-25-2017, 03:49 PM
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Here is MrGunsnGear test of the new HST


I shot some last week through my model 49 and I was very please with accuracy and recoil. The recoil was lighter then some of the FMJs I was shooting at the same time. Its what is staying in my 49 now.
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  #62  
Old 09-25-2017, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F224 View Post
I posted this elsewhere in this forum, my previous test results:

Federal 38spl + P HST Micro

Well I had a chance to chronograph this ammo. At about a buck a round, I only shot five through each of three guns. Not truly scientific with such a small sample, but it appears to be right on for factory claims regarding consistency of velocity, but in my 2" & 3" guns the velocity is well below the factory published number of 890 fps. I do not see on Federals website what barrel length or type they are using for their numbers.

2" S&W M337:
High 800 fps
Low 799 fps
Yes, a total for five shots of 1 fps variance.

3" Custom Colt Agent:
High 859 fps
Low 855 fps
Extreme spread of 4 fps.

4" S&W M67:
High 889 fps
Low 885 fps
Extreme spread of 4 fps.

Just for a control group, I then fired five Federal 148gr HBWC Gold Metal Match through the M67 for an average velocity of 753 fps and an extreme spread of 26 fps and a standard deviation of 10 fps. This M67 will shoot into 3.5" at 50 yards with the FGMM ammo off of sandbags.

Ammo lot # R12P1394144 Federal Premium P38HST1S 130gr HSP JHP 130gr
I found it. A 4 inch, but they didn't say if it was a vented test bbl., a non-vented bbl. or a revolver.
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  #63  
Old 09-26-2017, 02:04 PM
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I shot a box of this today. I was surprised at the light recoil for a +P (supposedly) round. The recoil I experienced from the round was less than what I was getting from 158 grain SWC rounds from Georgia Arms...and they list their velocity as 775 fps.

With the large hollowpoint on these new rounds I think they might do well for self defense.

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  #64  
Old 09-26-2017, 04:05 PM
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F224 chronograph results is what i would expect.I really like the way the hst mushroom in the test of many calibers.First i heard of the 38 round here.Thanks for sharing.
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  #65  
Old 09-26-2017, 07:02 PM
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I suspect this ammo, like full wadcutters, will be difficult to insert with a speed-loader.

Last edited by Autonomous; 09-26-2017 at 09:21 PM. Reason: Mistake edited out. Thanks Denis.
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  #66  
Old 09-26-2017, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
What I like about this article, is that it seems to vindicate the concept of using the inverted hollow base wadcutter for self defense. I realize that this new offering IS jacketed, but the fact remains, the idea of using the cylindrical wadcutter for self defense as advanced by handloaders almost 50 years ago (or more) is being given credibility!
I wonder how many people that load wadcutters upside down take into account cartridge pressures created by the radically reduced internal volume?
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  #67  
Old 09-26-2017, 07:10 PM
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The case isn't tapered.
Denis
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Old 09-26-2017, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
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The case isn't tapered.
Denis
Correct, I misread. The jacket profile is tapered.

Last edited by Autonomous; 09-26-2017 at 09:22 PM.
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  #69  
Old 09-27-2017, 03:15 AM
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Not really tapered, as such, to any degree that'd affect chamber loading.

The bullet nose extends maybe 1/32nd of an inch outside the case mouth, and the jacket is slightly rolled into the nose of the hollowpoint.

That slight roll wouldn't have anything to do with chambering.
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Old 09-27-2017, 10:36 AM
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A few articles state the jacket profile is tapered. Is that a fancy way of saying the cartridge has been crimped?
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  #71  
Old 09-27-2017, 01:30 PM
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Sitting here with close-up glasses on, a magnifying glass, and a bright flashlight, the case mouth is very minutely crimped, and the forward edge of the bullet jacket is slightly rolled into the lead edge of the HP cavity.

I wouldn't use the word "tapered" to describe either.

The case mouth still provides enough edge to potentially hang up on a chamber mouth on insertion with speedloaders.

The bullet nose is rolled inward away from the case mouth roughly the same 1/32nd of an inch that the nose extends beyond the case mouth.

The case mouth edge does not touch the bullet.
I can't see any deeper into the case below the section of bullet nose that's rolled inward, but there'd be no reason to taper the bullet or jacket "below the waterline".

Best I can tell, the bullet is full-diameter just inside the case mouth & just below where the jacket "crimp" begins.

The bullet nose & jacket are not visibly "tapered" and nothing I see about the cartridge configuration appears to be set up to aid chamber loading.

The rolled-in jacket at the nose would appear to be there simply to crimp the leading edge of the jacket to the leading edge of the lead, which you can find in other JHP bullet designs.
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  #72  
Old 10-10-2017, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
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Sitting here with close-up glasses on, a magnifying glass, and a bright flashlight.....
LOL, I use that exact,identical system, more and more these days !!
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  #73  
Old 10-10-2017, 01:23 PM
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If they say the jacket is tapered, I would assume that the jacket got thicker towards the bottom of the bullet. This would offer more control and support to the expanding bullet.
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Old 10-12-2017, 03:29 PM
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That may easily be, but it's not visible & has no effect on chamber loading.
Denis
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  #75  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:05 PM
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About some of the stats mentioned above. I used to study the NYPD Firearms Discharge Reports every time they came out. I've still got a couple floating around. With that in mind:

1. In the days of 2.? shots per engagement, they counted accidental/negligent discharges, suicides, putting down injured animals and, oh yeah, actual armed encounters. In short, every time some official firearm went "bang". That skewed the stats, so the system was changed.

2. Looking just at actual armed encounters, the range of average handgun shots per good guy/per bad guy runs 3.5-4.7 per shooting.

3. Looking just at actual armed encounters, the range of average handgun shots per good guy/per bad guy runs 6.?-8.? per gun fight.

4. Incidents involving multiple offenders/officers went above and beyond the above.

What I personally take from the above is that relying on 5-6 shots total isn't realistic. BTW, for those of us in rural areas, help can be a long way away in either/both distance and time. Extra ammo can be very comforting.

Over a long career I was issued/carried .38 Spl, .357 Magnum (125 gr Federal JHP), .40 S&W, .45 ACP, 9 mm & 10 mm (both full strength and down loaded). What I learned from that was that if you put bullets into vital system/structures, it didn't matter what you used. On the other hand, if you didn't hit vital systems/structures, it also didn't matter which one you used.
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