I keep hearing that .45ACP FMJ is a bad idea for self-defense due to over-penetration issues. However, I've never actually seen gel testing to support this.

Considering that .45ACP FMJ dispatched many an amped-up native warrior in the Philippines, cleaned numerous trenches in WWI, kicked butt across multiple continents in WWII, dropped innumerable commies in Korea and Vietnam, and stopped a multitude of other nefarious characters in a multitude of other conflicts are there any actual gel tests out there to show that over-penetration is actually all that big a concern? Or is is all just speculation based on 9x17, 9x18, and 9x19 gel testing results?

I wouldn’t worry about gel penetration tests.

Gel doesn’t imitate real flesh and bone: it just offers a consistent medium to compare projectiles in. You can determine which projectile penetrates more than another.

This correlates weakly with penetration in the field, but there is no metric for ‘too much’ gel penetration: only guesstimates of ‘enough’.

Keep in mind that modern expanding ammo is designed to get small caliber projectiles to perform in the field as well as 45 acp ball ammo does.

Gel doesn’t simulate performance in real applications.

All that said, I’m unaware of instances of over penetration involving 45 ball ammo.

I’m happy with it for edc.

I can't find the source, I think it was Dr. Martin Fackler, but it said .45ACP 230gr FMJ penetrated over 25" in gel.

More importantly, there have been incidents with .45 hardball overpenetrating and injuring someone behind the intended target.

Here's one article describing two of them:

Massad Ayoob: Is hollowpoint the best defensi | The Daily Caller

Some relevant portions:

From Arizona...From Los Angeles...My own opinion, you can use whatever ammo you want, but unless you're required by law or policy to use FMJ in a service caliber, I see absolutely no reason to carry FMJ considering the overpenetration and ricochet risks. You can never completely eliminate the risk of overpenetration, but you can effectively mitigate it while still achieving adequate penetration and performance with modern JHP designs.

Hi Forum,
I have a small stash of .38 & .40 Glaser Safety Slugs (Blue tip), and I load them as the first few rounds in all of my guns. I know this is a little off topic and probably moot for most of you since they haven't been manufactured in a long time, but I've watched all of the vids. I could find over the years, and done my own research to see how they perform in my (stucco) walls (they're devastating to anything in the middle, but don't seem to dangerously penetrate the back). They will penetrate the outer shell of a car door - they blast through the hard stuff. If there are any folks who have field experience and opinions with these rounds, I'd really appreciate some feedback to help me validate my safety strategy. The other rounds are typical SD rounds. The Glasers pack a wallop without over-penetrating the back side of anything. I think they were too expensive to manufacture to be competitive in the market. Thanks.
Oops - Sorry - I just found a few threads about this, but still would like to hear from anyone willing.

All I know is that when I test on milk jugs filled with water, 9mm and 38spl punch little holes and water leaks out.

The 45acp, I get a shower if I'm standing to close.

I'll keep carrying the 45 for now.

I carry 45 acp hardball only,it's what it is made for and proven turning bad guys to fertilizer for over 100 years. What's not to Like ,Use what works for you.

I would not base my carry on what happens in war. In war it doesn't matter where your bullet goes as long is it's going towards the enemy. Maybe a better way to say is to use logic and realize that not everything from a battlefield fits into civilian life

That being said this is the internet age. Type in "45acp fmj gell test" and get a plethora of videos

45ACP CCI Blazer 230gr FMJ impacting ballistic gelatin - YouTube

.45 ACP Ballistic Gel - YouTube

This is just the quick ones. I didn't feel like sitting through 10 min videos

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Look for tnoutdoors9 on you tube. He has several 'gel' test of different calibers , brands, etc. Seems to be very consistent on his test methods. Good information.

This was settled before the 1911 was issued,the 230 ball round killed just fine and was put into service and has worked since then. If it's not broken don't fix it. In my holster on my night stand loaded with ball 230 hardball 45a.c.p. 24/7 5 decades.

What do pathologists say? A handgun basically makes a hole. Whether it's a .357 diameter hole or .452 hole doesn't matter much. It's where the hole is that matters.

Hardball (FMJ) ammunition cannot compare to the devastation created by modern self defense ammunition like the Federal HST. Along with overpenetration of the traditional hardball ammo, which not only creates a danger to possible secondary targets but wastes energy not deposited into the intended target....the bullet's FMJ design causes it to impact and pass through without doing as much damage to vital organs, which is the desired effect. Destructive, yes, but not nearly as effective as modern ammunition created and designed specifically for self defense.

Unfortunately, I've had the experience of attending many autopsies over the years, and taking custody of modern HST and other similar projectiles removed from primary targets, and these .45 caliber projectiles not only caused devastating injury, they all measured over .70" in diameter.....and they obviously caused no injury or damage to "secondary" targets....be it body or property....because all of their energy was released into the primary target.

The .45acp cartridge is at the top of the heap in terms of it's terminal ballistics (opinion) when loaded with most modern projectiles like the HST and Gold Dot for instance. On the other hand, "hardball" or FMJ is what I consider "practice" ammunition. If you are having concerns about the reliability of your chosen EDC firearm to function properly using modern self-defense ammunition and are forced to use hardball ammo.....you need a different (more reliable) handgun.

Carrying hardball ammo in your EDC is like driving with your emergency brake on, you are both limiting the gun's potential, and wasting a lot of available energy.

Link below is data from professional gel tests of .45 ACP self defense ammunition. Notice: FMJ is not tested..... because it's not considered viable ammunition for self defense......

Winchester Ranger T-Series, Federal HST, and Speer Gold Dot dominate the testing, they penetrate effectively, expand reliably, and dump all their energy into the target. Your job is to place shots in areas of the target that are vital to survival. If you do, this ammo will not disappoint.

Save your hardball FMJ for practice at the range, not for carry.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...c-tests/#45ACP

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

I am sure all those 100,000's that were put in the ground by 45cap FMJ ball for over 100 years will not come back to life anytime soon.

Im liking hard cast flat nose or SWC. The Elmer Keith concept. More disruption than a round nose. Probably just as good penetration.. Maybe a bit of deformation.
Any body done gel tests with these at 45 velocities ?

So Spears and arrows. Even rocks

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Find a quality ammo that works reliably in your pistol, shoots accurately and to point of aim or close to it at 25 yards. No need to worry if it's ball ammo or the latest hollow-point. If you avoid thinking and re-thinking this stuff incessantly, you may be comparatively far ahead of the crowd.

Frank Gusenberg, one of the seven victims of the St. Valentine's Day Massacre of Feb 14, 1929, lived long enough to get transported to the hospital with at least eleven 230 grain FMJs, fired from Thompsons, in his back.

The point is, there are no guarantees.

I am sure all those 100,000's that were put in the ground by .22lr for over 100 years will not come back to life anytime soon. It is proven!!

Placement is Queen not cal. Or bullet shape. Use what you like and get trained more than the keyboard.

That's what I've been looking for - an effective retroactive round! Those pesky Moros were at war with us in 1898, so we developed a pistol in 1911 that went back and took care of them. Too bad we couldn't go back and re-do the Vietnam war with the 6.5 Creedmoor, or maybe the 7.62 x 39.

Thank you for sharing. Have a nice day.

Best self defense load ball 230gr FMJ .45ACP!!!! In my Country it is not legally allowed to use any expanding point bullets for self defense , they are ok only for hunting.

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"Off we go..."

I'd look for Semi-wadcutters.. they take a pretty good bite.

See if you can get your hands on some Lehigh Defense/Underwood Xtreme Defender or Polycase/Ruger ARX Inceptor ammo. They're solid projectiles which apparently still result in larger diameter wound tracks as a result of hydraulic fluid displacement, and they don't overpenetrate.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

There is no such thing as over penetration with a straight wall pistol cartridge. Only under penetration. Do you honestly want your attacker to carry around a bullet? That's a recipe for infection. That's downright inhumane and maybe a little masochistic.

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That's just somebody talkin.

Just bought two boxes of these Winchester USA Ready FMJ Flat Points in order to lessen the chance of pass throughs. My 45 will be used for home defense only. The flat nose creates a sizable meplat less likely to push tissue aside and hit an unintended target. Is my thinking valid? Would like to hear your thoughts.........

RED45 | Winchester Ammunition

No. If you want to lessen the chance of pass throughs, use a good hollowpoint, like HST, Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger, etc. The rounds you bought would make for good range ammo, as it says in the product description.

I personally always liked something with good penetration for defense. People worry about the round passing through and hitting an innocent bystander but your probably going to miss your target at least once anyway. Statistically I think the chances are over 90% one or more of the rounds in a gunfight will miss. Here's a "what if" scenario for grins and giggles. There are two perps and you kill one and the other guy grabs him and uses him for a human shield. He's got you cold if your bullets won't penetrate through his shield

I do have HPs for my .45s for carry but generally if I only had FMJ / hardball available I wouldn't be overly worried about it. Standard .45 ACP running about 830 fps is not exactly a lightspeed laser. Nice big holes either way. Over penetration is not high on my list of concerns. Like the old saying 'They all fall to Hardball'.

In other words, we should all throw caution to the wind and carry FMJ regardless of the risk of collateral damage because we might miss and cause collateral damage anyway and because a thug might try to use an accomplice as a human shield?

Honestly, really think about what you just said. Because the possibility of error exists, there's no reason to attempt to avoid or prevent it from occurring?
Right, well... Good luck with that. As for me, I'll just continue using JHPs because in the event in which collateral damage should occur as a result of discharging my firearm in self-defense, I would like to be able to tell the jury, my conscience, and eventually Saint Peter that I did everything in my power to prevent it from happening. To do anything less would make me negligent, irresponsible, selfish, and a terrible person in general.

As for the whole human shield scenario, I suppose I'd just do the sensible thing and shoot the guy in any exposed area, such as the arm he has wrapped around his human shield or any other part of his body which remains exposed from behind his shield.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Lucky gunner has some good ballistic tests on hp that did not expand. It’s reasonable to assume FMJ will behave similarly.

As an addendum to the Phillipine stopping problems, I came across a couple of contemporary After Action Reports written after the Phillipine Insurrection by ordnance officers stating that the .45 caliber rounds performed similar to, or marginally better than the .38 rounds against the tribesmen not drugged up.
When dealing with the occaisional tribesman on drugs, the only weapons that would put them down most of the time with solid hits were the Krags, trapdoors, and 12 gauge shotguns loaded with buckshot or slugs at very close range.
This part of the story is almost never mentioned.
And I say this as a huge .45 fan.

That's the trick with handgun cartridges, barring maybe the most powerful magnum handgun cartridges which hit with upwards of 2500ft-lbs of energy, they cannot drop an attacker with 100% certainty unless they score a direct hit to the Central Nervous System. In fact, the only times that an attacker does stop without being hit in the CNS is because he dicided to, which makes up the vast majority of self-defense shootings, hence why I've often stated that psychological stops are underrated, and criticize the folks who are constantly cherry-picking reports of the freak occurrences in which somebody tanked dozens of shots to push their agenda as if these headline-worthy reports are in any way common.

In fact, that's actually most-likely why bigger, more powerful cartridges have developed the amount of anecdotal evidence to support their superiority in the field in the past which has since been narrowed down. Because obviously the loud report and blinding muzzle flash of a .357 Magnum is far more intimidating than that of a traditional 115gr 9mm Luger load, but nowadays Law Enforcement is carrying 124-147gr +P+ which is more intimidating.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people who believes that there's no benefit whatsoever to carrying a .40 or a .45 over a 9mm because they're all completely equal but 9mm recoils less and holds more ammo in the magazine. Any hunter can tell you that bigger, heavier bullets tend to do more damage to bone, so that's a tangible benefit. The point is that none of them are going to stop a fight without hitting them somewhere that either resultes in paralysis or instant death, and that includes darlings like .357 Magnum and 10mm Auto, unless they just plain decided to surrender/flee/play dead.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

I handled an investigation of a shooting done by a neighboring PD. At that time their city leaders mandated only FMJ to be carried by their LEOs. It was one of the easiest shootings I have done.
One of their Sgts who was also a range officer and on their SWAT carried a Glock 21 with the 230 gr FMJ. One night one of their patrolmen makes a stop and everyone in the car bails. The patrolman found a loaded gun left in the car. The Sgt was responding when he saw a male running across a street a few blocks away. The Sgt gave chase on foot. As he was chasing the guy the Sgt was on his radio giving his location and description. As he was talking the male ran around a house. The Sgt ran around the corner of the house and just a few feet away there stood the male pointing a 9mm at him. The male fired 1 rd and the Sgt almost simultaneously fired 8 rds from his Glock 21. We had it all on tape as the Sgt had his mic keyed. The Sgt's 8 rds were as fast as he could work the trigger and took a bit of tech work to slow the tape down so we could get an accurate round count. Of the 8 rds the Sgt fired 5 hit the male. We were only able to recover 1 bullet. 4 of the 5 rds went thru the male in his torso area. The bullet we recovered hit the male as he was falling backwards. It entered his pelvis on the right side, clipped his hip bone, continued up thru this body cavity and came to rest just under the skin at his collar bone near his neck. Penetration thru his body was about 30".

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183rd FBINA

That information is never mentioned in all of the material I have read over the years. Thanks for posting it. I have always suspected that the Army dropped the subject because they found there wasn't much difference between the two cartridges. The troops at least got a morale boost by re issue of the larger caliber cartridge. Even if there were more complaints, there was not much more that could be done other than design wadcutter or hollow cavity bullets similar to the ones issued by the British Army for their .455 revolvers. One thing is certain, the U.S. Army was not going to develop a .50 caliber pistol cartridge to please any bigger bullet advocates.

Arguing with the old timer "harball drops 'em all" mentality is a waste of time. They've made their choice, let them deal with it if/when they get over penetration.

FMJ in anything larger than 380 ACP is questionable at best.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/w...ics-gel-works/

Time out y'all. I'm going to the kitchen to get the popcorn.
2018 thread.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990