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  #51  
Old 04-24-2018, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by one eye joe View Post
IN THEORY, AT LEAST, jimmyj.....

SEVERAL REPUTABLE STUDIES HAVE DETERMINED THAT THE MOST "ONE SHOT STOPS" ARE ATTRIBUTED TO THE 125GR. .357 MAGNUM ROUND.....

JIM CIRILLO, FAMED GUNFIGHTER AND MEMBER OF THE NYPD'S "STAKE OUT SQUAD", SURVIVED COUNTLESS SHOOTOUTS, WHILE TERMINATING THE LIVES OF AT LEAST 11 CRIMINALS, IN THE COURSE OF HIS DUTIES. BECAUSE OF HIS STATURE WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT, HE ENJOYED GREAT LATITUDE, IN HIS CHOICE OF ARMAMENT, BOTH WEAPON AND AMMO.....

OFFICER CIRILLO'S AMMO OF CHOICE WAS STANDARD PRESSURE, FULL WADCUTTER, .38 SPL LOADS, OF WHATEVER BRAND WAS IN CURRENT USE, FOR TRAINING PURPOSES, BY THE NYPD. THIS IS WHAT HE CARRIED IN HIS REVOLVER, AND WHAT HE STAKED HIS LIFE ON ! ! !

BUFFALO BORE NOW MAKES A SD LOAD, INSPIRED BY HIM.....
My Dillon is set up to load full wadcutter 38's with X.X grains of Unique. This is a powerful, accurate load. I could see it being effective. I've though of using it in my snubbie for CC.
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  #52  
Old 04-25-2018, 01:34 PM
Doug.38PR Doug.38PR is offline
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Originally Posted by jimmyj View Post
Bigger is better !
Any caliber that starts with a "4" is better than any caliber that starts with a "3".
What? Like .45 Colt or .45 ACP or .44 spl. Or .40 S&W is better than .357 Magnum? I don’t think so.
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  #53  
Old 04-26-2018, 06:34 PM
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What? Like .45 Colt or .45 ACP or .44 spl. Or .40 S&W is better than .357 Magnum? I don’t think so.
I AGREE THAT .40 IS NOTHING TO BRAG ABOUT, BUT THE QUESTION IS "BETTER AT WHAT" THE .357 MAG, HAS AN ENVIABLE RECORD OF "ONE SHOT STOPS" AGAINST HUMAN TARGETS, ESP WITH THE 125GR, SJHP, BULLET. THE .45ACP, WITH THE ISSUE RNFMJ BULLET--NOTHING FANCY, HAS PUT AWAY MILLIONS, IN BATTLE, SINCE 1911. IT DID THE TRICK IN VIETNAM....

I WOULD MUCH RATHER FACE A LARGE, ANGRY, 4 LEGGED CARNIVORE, WITH A HEAVY, HARD CAST, SOLID BULLET, OUT OF A .45 COLT, OR A .44 MAGNUM, THAN THE .357 MAGNUM ROUND......

I DELIVERED 4 SOLID HITS, ON A CHARGING 300+LB, BOAR, WITH .357 MAG, 158GR, SJHP, OUT OF AN 8" PYTHON, BEFORE I KILLED IT. GRANTED, THAT WAS NOT THE PROPER AMMO, FOR SUCH A HUNT. IT WAS THE ONLY AMMO, THAT WAS AVAILABLE, ON THE SHELVES, THAT I VISITED. I'M PRETTY SURE THAT THE HEAVY, HARD CAST, .45 COLT, OR .44 MAG BULLETS, WOULD HAVE PLOWED RIGHT THROUGH THE THICK LAYER OF TOUGH GRISTLE, IN THE CHEST OF THE BOAR, THAT PROTECTS ITS VITALS......

SORRY, THAT I DON'T HAVE A PIC OF THE BOAR HANDY. IT STRETCHED ACROSS THE BACK OF A LARGE, 4 WHEEL HONDA, TRAIL MACHINE---AND HUNG OFF, BOTH SIDES......
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  #54  
Old 04-26-2018, 09:33 PM
eb07 eb07 is offline
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I wouldn't want to be shot by any round from a .3 or .4

That being said, I think any modern ammo that shoots POA and you can handle and shoot accurately one/two handed stationary and one/two handed on the move is MORE than adequate for self defense.
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  #55  
Old 04-27-2018, 09:16 AM
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I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want be shot.

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Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
I wouldn't want to be shot by any round from a .3 or .4

That being said, I think any modern ammo that shoots POA and you can handle and shoot accurately one/two handed stationary and one/two handed on the move is MORE than adequate for self defense.
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  #56  
Old 04-27-2018, 12:10 PM
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I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want be shot.
I AGREE, GaryS. THE LOWLY .22LR, KILLS MORE PEOPLE, EVERY YEAR, THAN ANY OTHER CALIBER.......

I DON'T EVEN WANT TO BE SHOT BY A BB GUN.......
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  #57  
Old 04-27-2018, 12:51 PM
wgnovak wgnovak is offline
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I put down a menacing pit bull several years a go with a 2" mod 36 and two shots of the FBI load, one of which hit the upper foreleg at the shoulder and traversed the chest exiting just under the fur at the opposite side of the upper abdomen. The other one went through the mid neck and traversed the mid chest and was found just beneath the fur at the level of the lower chest. Range about six to eight feet.

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  #58  
Old 04-27-2018, 09:13 PM
JayFramer JayFramer is offline
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Study human physiology any and you'll soon become jaded to these debates.

Shot placement isn't just important, it is EVERYTHING when it comes to ending the fight NOW.
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  #59  
Old 05-05-2018, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueRidgeBoy View Post
According to Chuck Hawkes, the old 158 grain LSWCHP +P load has a history of 65% "one shot stops," in actual police shootings as researched by Marshall and Sanow. The venerable 230 grain FMJ .45 Auto comes in at 63%. See: Handgun Cartridge Power Chart - Condensed Version.
All the Marshall Sanow one-shot stop numbers was proved to be nonsense almost 20 years ago.

The methodology is flawed. It's right in their books. In computing on-shot stop statistics they only count situations where one round was fired and the attacker stopped--but they DON'T count any situations where one shot was fired and the person was not stopped and additional rounds had to be fired.

What they did is creat a formula that claims to calculate one-shot stops but is grossly flawed because it deliberately excludes the most common one-shot failures--all situtations where one shot is fired and it fails to stop someone so additional shots need to be fired.

Their one shot stop numbers are meaningless because they do not factor situations when one shot was not enough to stop someone and more shots had to be fired.

Successes are meaningless unless you factor in failures. And Marshall & Sanow's numbers do not factor in a major number of failures, therefore they have no meaning.

There is also serious questions about the validity of any of their data or accounts of shootings as to whether they even took place.

Many agencies who Marshall and Sanow claim to have gotten their shootings from have come forward and said that not only did they not provide any information to Marshall & Sanow, but that the shootings that Marshall and Sanow have attributed to them do not match any of the shootings that they have on record. Credibility of data is key in any study, and Marshall and Sanow have shown that they have none.

The July 1992 Law and Order Magazine has several letters to the editor, as well as a statement by the magazines’ editor, further illustrating the lack of truth and serious errors in the Marshall and Sanow “data”. Several papers have been published in the peer reviewed IWBA “Wound Ballistics Review” which have discussed the lack of credibility of Marshall and Sanow. It was clear in our review and in from the investigations by others that Marshall & Sanow had lied, fabricated data, and did not follow scientific protocols. Their information is fraudulent and meaningless. Please do not stake your life on this garbage.”

In response to Sanow’s criticism of the 9mm WW 147 grain JHP bullet, SGT Mike Dunlap, Rangemaster at Amarillo, TX, PD contacted every department for which Sanow claimed poor results with this bullet in his “anti-subsonic” articles. Mike submitted his results to Law and Order: they showed that Sanow had misrepresented what these departments found.

In the November 1992 issue, Law and Order published three letters contradicting Sanow’s “data” (p. 90). SGT William Porter, head of the Michigan State Police Marksmanship Unit wrote, “I hope that those who read this article will not be influenced by what Sanow wrote about what happened in the Michigan State Police shooting, because it didn’t happen that way.” In a note introducing these letters, Bruce Cameron, Editorial Director of Law and Order wrote, concerning Sanow’s article, “...we do apologize for printing information that has proven to be in error.”
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  #60  
Old 05-06-2018, 04:52 AM
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WELCOME TO THE FORUM, eel. THANKS FOR SHARING THIS INFO.....
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  #61  
Old 05-06-2018, 08:55 AM
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I would speculate that high capacity and the semi-autos capability for a quick follow up shots led to "double tap" simply because it could be easily done. The technique certainly seemed more in vogue with the adoption of high capacity semi autos than it was when revolvers were standard issue.
Actually you are incorrect. Double tap training began in the 80's with revolvers. At least it did at FLETC.
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  #62  
Old 05-06-2018, 07:37 PM
S&Wrevolverfan S&Wrevolverfan is offline
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Actually you are incorrect. Double tap training began in the 80's with revolvers. At least it did at FLETC.
You're correct. I went to one of the regional Louisiana P.O.S.T. academies for 14 weeks and also attended Louisiana State Police training in the early 1980's. Using my model 66 and belt loops that was the standard here.

Double tap was already well established as standard training then. I never fired only one round, it was always two. And qualification twice a year after that was all standard double tap.

Worst time of the year to be in an academy in Louisiana July-September when heat and humidity is at it's worst. Made me a better police officer though.
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  #63  
Old 05-06-2018, 11:38 PM
Doug.38PR Doug.38PR is offline
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Originally Posted by S&Wrevolverfan View Post
You're correct. I went to one of the regional Louisiana P.O.S.T. academies for 14 weeks and also attended Louisiana State Police training in the early 1980's. Using my model 66 and belt loops that was the standard here.

Double tap was already well established as standard training then. I never fired only one round, it was always two. And qualification twice a year after that was all standard double tap.

Worst time of the year to be in an academy in Louisiana July-September when heat and humidity is at it's worst. Made me a better police officer though.
What part of Louisiana would that be?
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  #64  
Old 05-07-2018, 12:19 AM
RGVshooter RGVshooter is offline
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Interesting conversation, nice "stories" to go with it. Only thing missing with these "stories" is the credible factual data to back it up... Without well documented facts, well then guys they're just stories...The only thing we can all agree on is by watching hundreds of surveillance videos of civilian self defense shootings on Youtube it's clear that no matter what caliber or handgun platform is used, it's amazing how fast a human can scramble out of the way when someone is shooting at them. And THAT is the purpose of self defense. The intent is to stop the threat and if the mere sight of a good guy pulling out a handgun causes the bad guy to get the heck out of there, well then the handgun performed it's intended purpose; To protect.

Back to topic. I'm a revolver guy. I've been shooting revolvers since I was a kid back in the late 70's. My EDC is a s&w 642 and yeah, I even carry my police trade 4" model 10 heavy barrel half the time. My carry ammo is mostly remington golden sabre +P's. I am extremely confident either will "get the job done" in a life or death situation although carrying my 4" mod 10 does make me hold my head up just a little bit higher.
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  #65  
Old 05-07-2018, 09:13 AM
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Interesting conversation, nice "stories" to go with it. Only thing missing with these "stories" is the credible factual data to back it up... Without well documented facts, well then guys they're just stories...

Back to topic. I'm a revolver guy. I've been shooting revolvers since I was a kid back in the late 70's. My EDC is a s&w 642 and yeah, I even carry my police trade 4" model 10 heavy barrel half the time. My carry ammo is mostly remington golden sabre +P's. I am extremely confident either will "get the job done" in a life or death situation although carrying my 4" mod 10 does make me hold my head up just a little bit higher.
Actually, I find the "stories" very valuable, as they are from real officers and real events. I'm confused why you are "extremely confident" in your equipment and ammo. On what "factual data" do you base your confidence?
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  #66  
Old 05-07-2018, 12:21 PM
Doug.38PR Doug.38PR is offline
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Originally Posted by one eye joe View Post
I AGREE THAT .40 IS NOTHING TO BRAG ABOUT, BUT THE QUESTION IS "BETTER AT WHAT" THE .357 MAG, HAS AN ENVIABLE RECORD OF "ONE SHOT STOPS" AGAINST HUMAN TARGETS, ESP WITH THE 125GR, SJHP, BULLET. THE .45ACP, WITH THE ISSUE RNFMJ BULLET--NOTHING FANCY, HAS PUT AWAY MILLIONS, IN BATTLE, SINCE 1911. IT DID THE TRICK IN VIETNAM....

I WOULD MUCH RATHER FACE A LARGE, ANGRY, 4 LEGGED CARNIVORE, WITH A HEAVY, HARD CAST, SOLID BULLET, OUT OF A .45 COLT, OR A .44 MAGNUM, THAN THE .357 MAGNUM ROUND......

I DELIVERED 4 SOLID HITS, ON A CHARGING 300+LB, BOAR, WITH .357 MAG, 158GR, SJHP, OUT OF AN 8" PYTHON, BEFORE I KILLED IT. GRANTED, THAT WAS NOT THE PROPER AMMO, FOR SUCH A HUNT. IT WAS THE ONLY AMMO, THAT WAS AVAILABLE, ON THE SHELVES, THAT I VISITED. I'M PRETTY SURE THAT THE HEAVY, HARD CAST, .45 COLT, OR .44 MAG BULLETS, WOULD HAVE PLOWED RIGHT THROUGH THE THICK LAYER OF TOUGH GRISTLE, IN THE CHEST OF THE BOAR, THAT PROTECTS ITS VITALS......

SORRY, THAT I DON'T HAVE A PIC OF THE BOAR HANDY. IT STRETCHED ACROSS THE BACK OF A LARGE, 4 WHEEL HONDA, TRAIL MACHINE---AND HUNG OFF, BOTH SIDES......
Good hunting! Great shooting! Nice gun!

Keep in mind: When the .357 Magnum was introduced in 1935, while it was targeted for the police market and largely failed at that time due to the heavy recoil, heavy N frame and cos;, it found a great following among big game hunters as it was the most powerful handgun in the world until 1955 when the .44 Magnum was developed.

I'd feel confident with a .45 Colt (especially loaded with BP), but the .357 Magnum packs a lot more energy and has taken down everything from Deer to Hogs to Moose and even Walrus. That 158-200 gr hardcast bullet will drill through and hit vitals if placed well.

Caliber size isn't insignificant, but it's not everything. The 5.56 NATO or .223 are "just" .22 caliber rifles...but we sure wouldn't say they are "not as good" as the .30 Carbine. The .30-06 Springfield is "only" .30 Caliber but we sure wouldn't say it's "not as good" as the .45-70 Gov't.

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