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Old 04-06-2018, 11:10 PM
Doug.38PR Doug.38PR is offline
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Default Remington FBI Load .38 Spl+p LHP real world Performance in Snub

Above said load (158 gr) is what I have loaded in all my and my wife’s 38 Special 4 and 2 inch revolvers. I’ve used them for over 10 years now. Good expansion, penetration and reliable in sand tests and from what I have read online and in books over the past decade. A proven “manstopper”, for lack of a better word, abd a good reputation for around 50 years, more or less, in one form or another.

However, with all that being said, I have seen online tests that it does not expand well (but still penetrates good) when fired from a 2 inch barrel into gellatine with clothing fabric.

Be that as it may, gellatine is not human tissue, bone, blood, organs, etc. my question: how does it reportedly perform in actual shootings when fired from a 2 inch?
The reputation would seem to say a lot. Can anybody speak to this end?
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Old 04-06-2018, 11:38 PM
Richard M Richard M is offline
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From chuckhawks.com handgun power chart. .38 Spec from a 2" barrel: fps ft lbs pen 1 shot stop Winchester +P 158gr.LHP 790 280 15.2" 67%
Federal, Rem, Win. 158gr.RNL 587 200 49%
Remington +P 158gr.LHP 776 211 65%

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Old 04-07-2018, 02:35 AM
Joe4d Joe4d is offline
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Im not impressed with anything coming out of a snub 38,,, compact 9mm beats it easily with more rounds flatter profile and less recoil.
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Old 04-07-2018, 05:36 AM
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I don't have specific numbers but from what I've read it does well in real world shootings. I can't recall reading many stories about failures. It's real world performance has been compared to .45ACP hardball, but with less overpenetration and ricochet risk.

I carry Speer 135gr Short-Barrel Gold Dot +P in my snub, but I would have no problem carrying some version of the FBI load, though my preference is for the standard pressure Buffalo Bore version (same velocity as the +P by other makers).
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Old 04-07-2018, 06:27 AM
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...well lets see...when I was with Dallas PD back in the 1970s and 80s that was the standard issue round...Remington, Federal or Winchester, just whoever had the contract. The standard issue gun was a S&W 64 4"...

Ones that I can remember...

One Sargent I worked for shot a murder suspect at about 10' inside a small motorhome with his issue Model 15 and the 158+P load...dropped the guy like a sack of flower... That is the only good story I have.

Friend who was in the Traffic Division happened to be close to an alarm call that came out and was first on scene. Got into a fight with the suspect who took his gun away from him and fired a round at him and missed... The officer pulled a Model 60 with the city issue ammo and shot at the guy hitting him in the neck. Guy dropped the officers gun and ran. Officer picked up his gun and continued to chase the suspect and got into another fight with him finally having to shoot him when the suspect again tried to take his gun. Was found that the .38 round from the 2" Model 60 had hit the guy in the neck and stuck there...

#1 guy in my academy class got into two shootings with the city issue gun and ammo. First was fighting a guy in a doorway where he had the guy jammed up but not totally under control. Suspect pulled a gun but my friend shot him in the face..bullet bounced off the guys cheek bone..."and he growled at me".

Second shooting was a shots fired call in an apartment complex. Friend had a rookie with him. They located the apartment and took cover on each side of the door before knocking...the door was partially open. Upon knocking a males voice asked who was there and they announced "pOlice..." To which the male said, "Come in".... They pushed the door open and there was a man with a gun at his side standing about 8-10' away. Guy was told to drop the gun at which time he started to raise it at the officers who each fired a round and stepped back. (both were using the city issue) Next voice to be heard is a woman from the rear of the apartment "Whats all that noise out there...?" Guys voice..."the pOlice done shot me...". The officers looked inside and saw the man still standing there the gun at his side. Guy then walks over to the couch, sits down and shortly thereafter dies... Friend bought a 6" 25-5 shortly thereafter...

I have several more stories received directly from the shooter. Of the 9 or 10 officers I spoke with only the above Sargent was happy with the outcome. Some shot people, some shot objects that should have been penetrated and were not but all of them switched guns and calibers...all of them. And I know three times as many people who have shot people with other guns and calibers and none of them switched guns after the shooting.

This round has killed a lot of people...but killing someone is not the object of a defensive encounter..immediately stopping them is.

Snubbies and other mouse guns are convenient but may not be effective...choose well....

Bob
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Old 04-07-2018, 07:38 AM
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Bullet technology has improved greatly since the 1970's and 80's. I think modern JHP loads are actually better than the old, soft lead hollow point loads. For a revolver with a barrel less than 4 inches in length, I'd definitely go with either standard pressure or +P ammo specifically designed for short barreled revolvers. The Speer Gold Dot 135 grain loads for 38 Special are good and consistent performers.
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Old 04-07-2018, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan View Post
...well lets see...when I was with Dallas PD back in the 1970s and 80s that was the standard issue round...Remington, Federal or Winchester, just whoever had the contract. The standard issue gun was a S&W 64 4"...

Ones that I can remember...

One Sargent I worked for shot a murder suspect at about 10' inside a small motorhome with his issue Model 15 and the 158+P load...dropped the guy like a sack of flower... That is the only good story I have.

Friend who was in the Traffic Division happened to be close to an alarm call that came out and was first on scene. Got into a fight with the suspect who took his gun away from him and fired a round at him and missed... The officer pulled a Model 60 with the city issue ammo and shot at the guy hitting him in the neck. Guy dropped the officers gun and ran. Officer picked up his gun and continued to chase the suspect and got into another fight with him finally having to shoot him when the suspect again tried to take his gun. Was found that the .38 round from the 2" Model 60 had hit the guy in the neck and stuck there...

#1 guy in my academy class got into two shootings with the city issue gun and ammo. First was fighting a guy in a doorway where he had the guy jammed up but not totally under control. Suspect pulled a gun but my friend shot him in the face..bullet bounced off the guys cheek bone..."and he growled at me".

Second shooting was a shots fired call in an apartment complex. Friend had a rookie with him. They located the apartment and took cover on each side of the door before knocking...the door was partially open. Upon knocking a males voice asked who was there and they announced "pOlice..." To which the male said, "Come in".... They pushed the door open and there was a man with a gun at his side standing about 8-10' away. Guy was told to drop the gun at which time he started to raise it at the officers who each fired a round and stepped back. (both were using the city issue) Next voice to be heard is a woman from the rear of the apartment "Whats all that noise out there...?" Guys voice..."the pOlice done shot me...". The officers looked inside and saw the man still standing there the gun at his side. Guy then walks over to the couch, sits down and shortly thereafter dies... Friend bought a 6" 25-5 shortly thereafter...

I have several more stories received directly from the shooter. Of the 9 or 10 officers I spoke with only the above Sargent was happy with the outcome. Some shot people, some shot objects that should have been penetrated and were not but all of them switched guns and calibers...all of them. And I know three times as many people who have shot people with other guns and calibers and none of them switched guns after the shooting.

This round has killed a lot of people...but killing someone is not the object of a defensive encounter..immediately stopping them is.

Snubbies and other mouse guns are convenient but may not be effective...choose well....

Bob
The “police done shot me” story sounds almost like one a Houston Policeman told me years ago about him shooting a guy with a 1911 .45 ACP hollow points in which the rounds wentbright through the upper body, opened inside and went out the back tearing flesh hanging off the back of the personZ. Bad guy simply sat down on sofa with a “please don’t do that again” attitude
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Old 04-07-2018, 02:58 PM
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In the old days, shooting the Biggest bullet was the best load for man or beast.

Today there are some 38 Special 90, 110 and 125gr SD loads on the market
that some people think will work for them, for one reason or another.

Even though the NY police have adopted the Speer Gold Dot 135gr JHP
there is still not a lot of shooting info being let out to the public
as far as how it performs, at least to my knowledge.

The 158 LHP "FBI load" has worked for over fifty years in the field,
so it has a pretty good track record to back up its use in the field.

I think a lot has to do with Summer vs Winter clothing as well as distance and angles.
There is also some LUCK involved is some of the shootings.....
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Old 04-07-2018, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan View Post
...well lets see...when I was with Dallas PD back in the 1970s and 80s that was the standard issue round...Remington, Federal or Winchester, just whoever had the contract. The standard issue gun was a S&W 64 4"...

Ones that I can remember...

One Sargent I worked for shot a murder suspect at about 10' inside a small motorhome with his issue Model 15 and the 158+P load...dropped the guy like a sack of flower... That is the only good story I have.

Friend who was in the Traffic Division happened to be close to an alarm call that came out and was first on scene. Got into a fight with the suspect who took his gun away from him and fired a round at him and missed... The officer pulled a Model 60 with the city issue ammo and shot at the guy hitting him in the neck. Guy dropped the officers gun and ran. Officer picked up his gun and continued to chase the suspect and got into another fight with him finally having to shoot him when the suspect again tried to take his gun. Was found that the .38 round from the 2" Model 60 had hit the guy in the neck and stuck there...

#1 guy in my academy class got into two shootings with the city issue gun and ammo. First was fighting a guy in a doorway where he had the guy jammed up but not totally under control. Suspect pulled a gun but my friend shot him in the face..bullet bounced off the guys cheek bone..."and he growled at me".

Second shooting was a shots fired call in an apartment complex. Friend had a rookie with him. They located the apartment and took cover on each side of the door before knocking...the door was partially open. Upon knocking a males voice asked who was there and they announced "pOlice..." To which the male said, "Come in".... They pushed the door open and there was a man with a gun at his side standing about 8-10' away. Guy was told to drop the gun at which time he started to raise it at the officers who each fired a round and stepped back. (both were using the city issue) Next voice to be heard is a woman from the rear of the apartment "Whats all that noise out there...?" Guys voice..."the pOlice done shot me...". The officers looked inside and saw the man still standing there the gun at his side. Guy then walks over to the couch, sits down and shortly thereafter dies... Friend bought a 6" 25-5 shortly thereafter...

I have several more stories received directly from the shooter. Of the 9 or 10 officers I spoke with only the above Sargent was happy with the outcome. Some shot people, some shot objects that should have been penetrated and were not but all of them switched guns and calibers...all of them. And I know three times as many people who have shot people with other guns and calibers and none of them switched guns after the shooting.

This round has killed a lot of people...but killing someone is not the object of a defensive encounter..immediately stopping them is.

Snubbies and other mouse guns are convenient but may not be effective...choose well....

Bob
Do you know about a Dallas officer who supposedly shot and killed six felons, using his issued M-64 and that lead HP load?

Or about an officer who shot a fleeing felon four times in the back with a four-inch M-29 and full .44 Magnum rounds, all exiting his chest? The guy ran for a block or more before dropping.

When I talked to him, the officer was carrying a Model 19 with .357 ammo. He figured that the .44 was overkill on humans, and that 357 might fare better. I know his name, but probably shouldn't post it here.

The Dallas .357 load, also used by the FBI, was Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip. A Richardson, TX detective checked police shootings for me and said that ST .357 load was VERY effective.

Last edited by Texas Star; 04-07-2018 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 04-07-2018, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
In the old days, shooting the Biggest bullet was the best load for man or beast.

Today there are some 38 Special 90, 110 and 125gr SD loads on the market
that some people think will work for them, for one reason or another.

Even though the NY police have adopted the Speer Gold Dot 135gr JHP
there is still not a lot of shooting info being let out to the public
as far as how it performs, at least to my knowledge.

The 158 LHP "FBI load" has worked for over fifty years in the field,
so it has a pretty good track record to back up its use in the field.

I think a lot has to do with Summer vs Winter clothing as well as distance and angles.
There is also some LUCK involved is some of the shootings.....
When I was a gun writer, I had access to Speer's PR man, who told me that both NYPD and LAPD used that 135 grain Short Barrel .38 load and that they were very pleased with results.

Granted, he was the manufacturer's man, but I believed him.
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Old 04-07-2018, 03:25 PM
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Ask Bobby Kennedy about the efficacy of a low-powered small bullet - 22 rimfire to be specific. While your'e at it, maybe James Brady, Timothy McCarthy, or Thomas Delahanty could give some info on the performance of 22LR as well.

All of those guys dropped like bags of spuds. Ronald Reagan was the only one tough enough to remain vertical - and that was due to a ricochet.

George Wallace, Lee Harvey Oswald, and John Lennon dropped instantly after shots from 38 snubbies.

38 specials will do just fine.

Last edited by crstrode; 04-07-2018 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 04-07-2018, 04:04 PM
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It's important to specify what you define as the 158 gr 'FBI" load.

The FBI started using the X38SPD load in the mid 1970s. This was a .38 +P 158 gr LSWC-HP. Winchester still makes it and publishes a velocity of 890 fps in a 4" barrel.

Federal produced it's '38G load shortly after ward, and went through several iterations before they got it to work right, and it still didn't work right in revolvers that did not have a gas cylinder shield or ring as the lead and lube they used led to binding of the cylinder. Ruger incorporated a gas cylinder ring on law enforcement contract revolvers that were ordered in .38 Special. It required milling on the underside of the forcing cone for clearance and wasn't an option on the .357 Magnum as, like the Model 19, it made the forcing cone more prone to cracks with .357 Mag loads. In any event that load was discontinued in the late 1990s but seems to have resurfaced and Federal currently quotes 900 fps in a 4" barrel. I have no idea if they fixed there lead issues.

Remington also had the R38S12 load. I used this load for several years and it gave me around 825 fps in a 1 7/8" Model 36, about 860 fps in my 2 1/2" Model 66 and about 900 fps in my 3" Model 13. A few years go Remington "discontinued" it, which in Remington speak meant they renamed it as the RTP38S12 load in their "High Terminal Performance" series. The only change I noted was the price.

The Winchester and Remington loads perform well in ballistic gel tests in a 2" barrel, but there's no free lunch. Reliable expansion at 2" velocities requires a soft alloy which at +P pressures will start leaving significant lead fouling in the bore after 2-3 cylinders which starts impairing accuracy past that point.

----

The other day I stumbled on a 300 round box of Hornady 158 gr LSCW-HPs at a really good price and figured I'd work on an FBI'esque low recoil load for my K frame short barrel .357s, but one that would give 4" velocities in a 2.5" barrel.

5.0 gr of Unique (.2 gr over the limit for standard pressure .38) gave an average velocity of 778 fps in a 2.5" Model 66. 5.5 grains gave me 889.5 fps, and 6.0 grains gave me an average of 956 fps, all in a 2.5" barrel.

The disclaimer here is that these are .357 Magnum loads that are well under 158 gr lead bullet maximums in the old Hornady 3rd edition loading manual (the last one I have that has loads for Unique), but are all over the maximum for standard pressure .38 and I'm pretty sure the last two exceed .38 +P pressures.

The first load is I suspect very close to the modern .38 +P "FBI" load velocity based on my experience with the Remington load. The second does a good job of producing 4" "FBI load" velocities in a 2.5" barrel, but fouling was noticeable after 12 shots. Not hard to remove, but definitely there.

In the end though I decided to just stick with my current 125 gr XTP load that produces 1250 fps in a 2 1/2" barrel with excellent accuracy and no concerns for lead fouling.

I might however revisit it for my 2.125" and 3" Model 60s. The recoil was pleasant by .357 standards and it would I suspect be effective. I may try it in some ballistic gel if it stops raining.
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Old 04-07-2018, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crstrode View Post
Ask Bobby Kennedy about the efficacy of a low-powered small bullet - 22 rimfire to be specific. While your'e at it, maybe James Brady, Timothy McCarthy, or Thomas Delahanty could give some info on the performance of 22LR as well.

All of those guys dropped like bags of spuds. Ronald Reagan was the only one tough enough to remain vertical - and that was due to a ricochet.

George Wallace, Lee Harvey Oswald, and John Lennon dropped instantly after shots from 38 snubbies.

38 specials will do just fine.
I think most of those (not sure about McCarthy) are all good arguments for:

- good bullet placement; and/or
- psychological stops.

None of these quys were crack heads (although Lennon liked Bennies).
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Old 04-07-2018, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
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It's important to specify what you define as the 158 gr 'FBI" load.

The FBI started using the X38SPD load in the mid 1970s. This was a .38 +P 158 gr LSWC-HP. Winchester still makes it and publishes a velocity of 890 fps in a 4" barrel.

Federal produced it's '38G load shortly after ward, and went through several iterations before they got it to work right, and it still didn't work right in revolvers that did not have a gas cylinder shield or ring as the lead and lube they used led to binding of the cylinder. Ruger incorporated a gas cylinder ring on law enforcement contract revolvers that were ordered in .38 Special. It required milling on the underside of the forcing cone for clearance and wasn't an option on the .357 Magnum as, like the Model 19, it made the forcing cone more prone to cracks with .357 Mag loads. In any event that load was discontinued in the late 1990s but seems to have resurfaced and Federal currently quotes 900 fps in a 4" barrel. I have no idea if they fixed there lead issues.

Remington also had the R38S12 load. I used this load for several years and it gave me around 825 fps in a 1 7/8" Model 36, about 860 fps in my 2 1/2" Model 66 and about 900 fps in my 3" Model 13. A few years go Remington "discontinued" it, which in Remington speak meant they renamed it as the RTP38S12 load in their "High Terminal Performance" series. The only change I noted was the price.

The Winchester and Remington loads perform well in ballistic gel tests in a 2" barrel, but there's no free lunch. Reliable expansion at 2" velocities requires a soft alloy which at +P pressures will start leaving significant lead fouling in the bore after 2-3 cylinders which starts impairing accuracy past that point.

----

The other day I stumbled on a 300 round box of Hornady 158 gr LSCW-HPs at a really good price and figured I'd work on an FBI'esque low recoil load for my K frame short barrel .357s, but one that would give 4" velocities in a 2.5" barrel.

5.0 gr of Unique (.2 gr over the limit for standard pressure .38) gave an average velocity of 778 fps in a 2.5" Model 66. 5.5 grains gave me 889.5 fps, and 6.0 grains gave me an average of 956 fps, all in a 2.5" barrel.

The disclaimer here is that these are .357 Magnum loads that are well under 158 gr lead bullet maximums in the old Hornady 3rd edition loading manual (the last one I have that has loads for Unique), but are all over the maximum for standard pressure .38 and I'm pretty sure the last two exceed .38 +P pressures.

The first load is I suspect very close to the modern .38 +P "FBI" load velocity based on my experience with the Remington load. The second does a good job of producing 4" "FBI load" velocities in a 2.5" barrel, but fouling was noticeable after 12 shots. Not hard to remove, but definitely there.

In the end though I decided to just stick with my current 125 gr XTP load that produces 1250 fps in a 2 1/2" barrel with excellent accuracy and no concerns for lead fouling.

I might however revisit it for my 2.125" and 3" Model 60s. The recoil was pleasant by .357 standards and it would I suspect be effective. I may try it in some ballistic gel if it stops raining.

The Remington version is the one I’ve been using for over 10 years now.

I have a box of Buffalo Bore+p of the same load but I reserve it for a backup load in my 4 inch guns. I get about 1185 ft per second out if a 4 inch. Has a pretty hard recoil, which I don’t mind for my Colt OP or SW M15 4 inch or even M10 2 inch being a K frame but I don’t want to load that in my Detective Special.

I too have 300 of Hornandy LHP 158 gr. Out of 4 inch, I get about 950 ft per second with 5.2 gr of Unique. About the same as Remington FBI Load. But I’m hesitant to use reloads for self defense. Plus Unique velocityperformance isn’t as good as factory ammo out of snub nose revolvers
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Old 04-08-2018, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
Do you know about a Dallas officer who supposedly shot and killed six felons, using his issued M-64 and that lead HP load?

Or about an officer who shot a fleeing felon four times in the back with a four-inch M-29 and full .44 Magnum rounds, all exiting his chest? The guy ran for a block or more before dropping.

When I talked to him, the officer was carrying a Model 19 with .357 ammo. He figured that the .44 was overkill on humans, and that 357 might fare better. I know his name, but probably shouldn't post it here.

The Dallas .357 load, also used by the FBI, was Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip. A Richardson, TX detective checked police shootings for me and said that ST .357 load was VERY effective.
"supposedly"....Do you have a name???? All my accounts are first hand told to me by the shooter...

Yes, Tom was a good friend and my insurance agent...he told me all about the shooting. The guy was running and most of the rounds did NOT hit the torso.

There never was any "Dallas .357 load" as Dallas never issued guns or ammo in that caliber...don't know where you are getting your information but it isn't correct. And I 100% agree, the .357 ST is a VERY effective round...never said it was not. We are talking about the effectiveness of the FBI .38 Special load not .357s...

As to checking police reports and saying a round is effective without talking to the officer involved as to finding out EXACTLY what the shootee did when hit is useless.

Bob
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Old 04-08-2018, 07:42 AM
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Default Bad Bullets

When threads head in this direction, I'm reminded of two situations, both in New York. A NY Times delivery driver was mugged at the loading dock in Mid-town Manhattan, dropping stone dead from a single .25 Auto wound to the back. Conversely, Jim Cirilllo, of the NYPD stakeout squad wrote of a retail store robber taking two full loads of 12 gauge buckshot (18 pellets at the time) who remained on his feet and began to flee when brought down by an errant .38 Special round to the knee.

Michael Platt, the bad guy who did all the shooting at the infamous 1986 FBI Miami shootout, took a 9mm round through his arm and into his chest. AFTER suffering that wound, he went on to kill two FBI agents and wound five more.

The variables attendant in real-life shootings are simply too great to reduce to absolute predictability. It is better to think in terms of generalities: the bigger and faster the bullet, the more damage it does.I can hit you with a 16-pound bowling ball but I can't move it fast enough to cause serious damage to an adult. On the other hand, although rare, people have been killed by errant golf balls, even a hockey puck.

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Old 04-08-2018, 03:12 PM
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"supposedly"....Do you have a name???? All my accounts are first hand told to me by the shooter...

Yes, Tom was a good friend and my insurance agent...he told me all about the shooting. The guy was running and most of the rounds did NOT hit the torso.

There never was any "Dallas .357 load" as Dallas never issued guns or ammo in that caliber...don't know where you are getting your information but it isn't correct. And I 100% agree, the .357 ST is a VERY effective round...never said it was not. We are talking about the effectiveness of the FBI .38 Special load not .357s...



Bob
Not to get off topic, but am I to understand from this running guy story and your reply that the Dallas PD issued .44 Magnum rounds and .38 Spl+p but not .357 Magum rounds to officers?

Anyway, yes there is no guaranteed load that’s going to drop a man in an instant. I related a story of an HPD officer who hit a guy twice with .45 ACP hollow point ammo in the chest and they both expanded inside and ripped out the back with the bad guy simply sitting down on the sofa with a “please don’t do that again” attitude
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Old 04-08-2018, 03:17 PM
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I think most of those (not sure about McCarthy) are all good arguments for:

- good bullet placement; and/or
- psychological stops.

None of these quys were crack heads (although Lennon liked Bennies).
According to Ed Lovette in his book The Snubbie, the whole reason the FBI Load for Remington and Winchester was developed was due to the advent of thugs using drugs and the HP doing more internal damage to shut down the bad guy
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Old 04-08-2018, 03:57 PM
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DPD only issued .38 Special Model 64s (and before that Model 15s) and one kind of .38 158 +P LSWC HPs... Officers were free to purchase at their own expense any Colt, Browning or S&W in:

9mm
.38 Super
.357 Magnum
.41 Magnum
.44 Magnum
.45 Colt
.45 Auto Rim
.45 ACP

Investigators could also carry .380 ACP.

You could carry any ammo, factory or HANDLOADS, as long as the bullet was not incendiary or explosive...again all ammo was at your own expense including qualification ammo...
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Old 04-08-2018, 04:46 PM
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In my 30 years (retired in ‘97) I survived three deadly force encounters while armed w/my department issued thirty-eight. In all but one instance it was the FBI +P lead round that did the job and and I carry it to this day in my EDC J frame.
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Old 04-09-2018, 10:33 AM
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One procedure that I understand is designed into nearly all self-defense training for semiautomatic pistols is what is phrased as "double tap." Having used only revolvers and not having participated in any formal self-defense training program, I am not certain I am correct in describing double tap as [in self-defense situation] firing two nearly simultaneous targeted shots when shooter achieves his desired sight picture.

If I described it accurately, this is the way marginally adequate semiautomatic pistol self-defense ammunition metamorphoses to adequacy? Wouldn't this double tap procedure achieve similar result with 38 Special ammunition?
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Old 04-09-2018, 06:12 PM
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The Remington version is the one I’ve been using for over 10 years now.

I have a box of Buffalo Bore+p of the same load but I reserve it for a backup load in my 4 inch guns. I get about 1185 ft per second out if a 4 inch. Has a pretty hard recoil, which I don’t mind for my Colt OP or SW M15 4 inch or even M10 2 inch being a K frame but I don’t want to load that in my Detective Special.

I too have 300 of Hornandy LHP 158 gr. Out of 4 inch, I get about 950 ft per second with 5.2 gr of Unique. About the same as Remington FBI Load. But I’m hesitant to use reloads for self defense. Plus Unique velocityperformance isn’t as good as factory ammo out of snub nose revolvers
I just did a little speed test using my M10 2 inch snub. Loaded 5.2 gr of unique behind a Hornandy 158 gr LSWCHP. Shot several cylinder fulls. Highest speed was about 836ft per second lowest 775. On average about 825 ft per second.
I did put one round with 5.4 gr of unique and that clocked 863 ft per second.

(I did find an old Corbon 110 gr +p load from about 12 years ago that screamed and kicked out of that little barrel at 1257 ft per second...I was shocked. I was expecting a little over 1000 out of that little snub barrel)

In the coming weeks as things dry up on my land, I plan to try some of these loads on some wet old sandbags covered with some old torn up blue jeans or T shirts to see how they perform

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Old 04-11-2018, 06:45 PM
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According to Chuck Hawkes, the old 158 grain LSWCHP +P load has a history of 65% "one shot stops," in actual police shootings as researched by Marshall and Sanow. The venerable 230 grain FMJ .45 Auto comes in at 63%. See: Handgun Cartridge Power Chart - Condensed Version.

There are lots of rounds that do better than this, especially the frangible Glaser rounds, but there are usually significant trade-offs involved such as muzzle flash, blast, and the ability to fire a second shot on-target within a reasonable length of time.

Given that shot placement is more important than caliber, I am perfectly comfortable with a Model 66 ND 2-1/2 inch revolver loaded with the so-called FBI load when I leave the house.
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Old 04-11-2018, 09:31 PM
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The problem with all these threads is that they focus on the wrong aspect of a one-stop-shot. I've never drawn a gun in anger, but from everything I've read (including all the FBI research I've found) adequate penetration and shot placement are key.

Almost any caliber can penetrate enough to kill, as all the fatal shootings with .22 LR will testify to. The key is good shot placement. Hollow point bullets increase damage at the cost of penetration, but there is no substitute for good shot placement. I personally have no doubt that any .38 SPL round has adequate penetration to stop a bad guy if I put the bullet where it needs to go.

That said, I'm not a great shot so I carry a 629 loaded with hot .44 SPL JHPs to hedge my bets a bit.

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Old 04-12-2018, 09:30 AM
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There have been a number of advances made in bullet construction and propellant powders over the past 25 years or so, including considerable attention to loads that improved performance in short-barreled revolvers.

That said, .38 and .357 magnum revolvers with barrels shorter than about 4" are seriously handicapped in actual ballistic performance. There is no getting around the facts; the shorter barrels will never deliver the velocities or energy levels to be expected from the same loads in longer barreled revolvers. Even with the specialized modern "short barrel" loads with highly efficient expanding bullet designs and powders optimized for shorter barrels the terminal performance is much less than 100% optimum. Just the nature of the beast; there is a very real compromise made when a snub-nosed revolver is chosen.

Now we can sit back and enjoy all the posts by those who truly believe they have discovered the perfect solution!
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Old 04-12-2018, 12:09 PM
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There have been a number of advances made in bullet construction and propellant powders over the past 25 years or so, including considerable attention to loads that improved performance in short-barreled revolvers.

That said, .38 and .357 magnum revolvers with barrels shorter than about 4" are seriously handicapped in actual ballistic performance. There is no getting around the facts; the shorter barrels will never deliver the velocities or energy levels to be expected from the same loads in longer barreled revolvers. Even with the specialized modern "short barrel" loads with highly efficient expanding bullet designs and powders optimized for shorter barrels the terminal performance is much less than 100% optimum. Just the nature of the beast; there is a very real compromise made when a snub-nosed revolver is chosen.

Now we can sit back and enjoy all the posts by those who truly believe they have discovered the perfect solution!
Well, speaking of bullet improvements, Buffalo Bore has actually inproved on the F.B.I. Load. They push it's velocities up to 1275, more or less, ft per second out of a 4 inch barrel (I have the actual chronograph records of my own gun that supports their claims) and supposedly gives 1000 ft per second, more or less, out of a 2 inch barrel. It basically takes the velocities up to the old .38-44 Hi Speed. With their speeds you can take a snubbie up to 4 inch normal factory velocities of Remington and Winchester. But it's virtually turning it into a low end .357 Magnum in power.
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Old 04-12-2018, 12:50 PM
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One procedure that I understand is designed into nearly all self-defense training for semiautomatic pistols is what is phrased as "double tap." Having used only revolvers and not having participated in any formal self-defense training program, I am not certain I am correct in describing double tap as [in self-defense situation] firing two nearly simultaneous targeted shots when shooter achieves his desired sight picture.

If I described it accurately, this is the way marginally adequate semiautomatic pistol self-defense ammunition metamorphoses to adequacy? Wouldn't this double tap procedure achieve similar result with 38 Special ammunition?
Sorry but I strongly disagree with this mind set. You shoot till the threat is eliminated.
Muscle memory YOU WILL do what you did in training under stress.
Im shooting targets to the ground. I see people all the time.. BANG BANG,,, pull gun back look at the target. Guess what they gonna do under stress ?
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Old 04-12-2018, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Naphtali View Post
One procedure that I understand is designed into nearly all self-defense training for semiautomatic pistols is what is phrased as "double tap." Having used only revolvers and not having participated in any formal self-defense training program, I am not certain I am correct in describing double tap as [in self-defense situation] firing two nearly simultaneous targeted shots when shooter achieves his desired sight picture.

If I described it accurately, this is the way marginally adequate semiautomatic pistol self-defense ammunition metamorphoses to adequacy? Wouldn't this double tap procedure achieve similar result with 38 Special ammunition?
I would speculate that high capacity and the semi-autos capability for a quick follow up shots led to "double tap" simply because it could be easily done. The technique certainly seemed more in vogue with the adoption of high capacity semi autos than it was when revolvers were standard issue.
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:05 PM
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Default Many perps today....

...are drugged up out of their heads and there are often more than one. It calls for better shooting and good ammo and also, enough firepower. I do trust my Chief's Specials for effectiveness with good ammo, but firepower is still wanting. My Shield holds 8 or 9 rounds, a faster bullet and a few more of them.
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:22 PM
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I carry Speer 135gr Short-Barrel Gold Dot +P in my snub, but I would have no problem carrying some version of the FBI load, though my preference is for the standard pressure Buffalo Bore version (same velocity as the +P by other makers).
I CARRY THE SPEER, GOLD DOT, .38SPL+P, FOR SHORT BARRELS, IN MY SNUBS, AS WELL. ITS THE AMMO ISSUED, BY THE DEPARTMENT TO NYPD OFFICERS, WHO CARRY REVOLVERS. IT HAS PROVEN TO BE A RELIABLE, AND EFFECTIVE ROUND, TO THEIR SATISFACTION......

THAT'S ENOUGH OF AN ENDORSEMENT, TO WIN ME OVER......
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:27 PM
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Sorry but I strongly disagree with this mind set. You shoot till the threat is eliminated.
Muscle memory YOU WILL do what you did in training under stress.
Im shooting targets to the ground. I see people all the time.. BANG BANG,,, pull gun back look at the target. Guess what they gonna do under stress ?
I agree mag dumps with high capacity semi autos has always been so effective.(sarcasm)

Nothing says professionalism like shooting nine innocent bystanders(NYPD).

Double tap does not mean stop shooting completely, it means getting two quick rounds off then accessing whether more is needed. IMO that is preferred to throwing lead wildly.
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:56 PM
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As an aside, as I am not a ballistics expert and have never shot anyone, although I do prefer heavy bullets I also carry mouseguns here and there, because any gun when you need it.....but let me tell you about a young Dallas police officer's gun with whom I served briefly in the Navy Reserve Intelligence Program.

He carried a 4" Smith & Wesson Model 25 in .45 Colt. I know this for a fact because he brought that gun with him on base (he had permission) and he showed it to me. Sometimes, after the end of a day on base he had to go on duty so I saw him in his DPD uniform with that big .45 on his belt. It took me decades before I acquired one like it - a grail gun for me - and if I could tote it around all day concealed that's the gun I would choose.

I mention it because I have no idea what the DPD gun rules were but in the late 1980s that's what he carried.

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Old 04-13-2018, 08:32 AM
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Bigger is better !
Any caliber that starts with a "4" is better than any caliber that starts with a "3".
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Old 04-13-2018, 05:40 PM
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I would speculate that high capacity and the semi-autos capability for a quick follow up shots led to "double tap" simply because it could be easily done. The technique certainly seemed more in vogue with the adoption of high capacity semi autos than it was when revolvers were standard issue.
DT didn't evolve as some "combat technique" and if you look at the "REAL" shootouts on YouTube and LiveLeak I doubt you'll ever see one. This is a technique that came directly from IPSC competition to put two bullets anywhere on the target asap because your score was divided by your time and the faster your time the higher your score could be...Comstock Count.

Then a bunch of competitors who were not real combat shooters opened schools and started teaching this BS to the unknowing...but because they had the credentials of being top IPSC shooters the "unknowing" believed them...

I've seen IPSC and IDPA shooters who can't NOT DT...you give them a scenario where only one shot is allowed or required and they still fire two rounds...

...just a game...until you loose.

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Old 04-13-2018, 05:48 PM
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As an aside, as I am not a ballistics expert and have never shot anyone, although I do prefer heavy bullets I also carry mouseguns here and there, because any gun when you need it.....but let me tell you about a young Dallas police officer's gun with whom I served briefly in the Navy Reserve Intelligence Program.

He carried a 4" Smith & Wesson Model 25 in .45 Colt. I know this for a fact because he brought that gun with him on base (he had permission) and he showed it to me. Sometimes, after the end of a day on base he had to go on duty so I saw him in his DPD uniform with that big .45 on his belt. It took me decades before I acquired one like it - a grail gun for me - and if I could tote it around all day concealed that's the gun I would choose.

I mention it because I have no idea what the DPD gun rules were but in the late 1980s that's what he carried.
DPD officers were allowed to carry semis or revolvers in the calibers I listed above until the chief...Billy "The Clown" Prince decreed that semis were unreliable and dangerous and stopped us from carrying them in 1985/6 area. I left the Department in December 87. Prince was replaced a couple of years later. The new chief was from LA and brought the semi's back but eliminated all the large caliber revolvers, only .38s and .357s were allowed...and I believe factory ammo only, no more handloads...and no more SA semis...so no BHP or 1911s..

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Old 04-13-2018, 07:25 PM
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Placement is gueen all else is what ever makes you feel better. A plain SWC in 158grn will get it done.
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:44 PM
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Bigger is better !
Any caliber that starts with a "4" is better than any caliber that starts with a "3".
IN THEORY, AT LEAST, jimmyj.....

SEVERAL REPUTABLE STUDIES HAVE DETERMINED THAT THE MOST "ONE SHOT STOPS" ARE ATTRIBUTED TO THE 125GR. .357 MAGNUM ROUND.....

JIM CIRILLO, FAMED GUNFIGHTER AND MEMBER OF THE NYPD'S "STAKE OUT SQUAD", SURVIVED COUNTLESS SHOOTOUTS, WHILE TERMINATING THE LIVES OF AT LEAST 11 CRIMINALS, IN THE COURSE OF HIS DUTIES. BECAUSE OF HIS STATURE WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT, HE ENJOYED GREAT LATITUDE, IN HIS CHOICE OF ARMAMENT, BOTH WEAPON AND AMMO.....

OFFICER CIRILLO'S AMMO OF CHOICE WAS STANDARD PRESSURE, FULL WADCUTTER, .38 SPL LOADS, OF WHATEVER BRAND WAS IN CURRENT USE, FOR TRAINING PURPOSES, BY THE NYPD. THIS IS WHAT HE CARRIED IN HIS REVOLVER, AND WHAT HE STAKED HIS LIFE ON ! ! !

BUFFALO BORE NOW MAKES A SD LOAD, INSPIRED BY HIM.....
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Old 04-14-2018, 02:32 AM
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Bigger is better !
Any caliber that starts with a "4" is better than any caliber that starts with a "3".
If it is better, just how much? No one really knows.

I've settled on .38 SWC. In my opinion, if something can fully penetrate and break a couple of bones on the way, it's sufficient no matter what the diameter.
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Old 04-14-2018, 06:53 AM
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Having been “there” more than once all I can tell you is every situation is different so all this double tap & mag dump talk means little. One time I fired only one shot b/c it did the job, another I emptied my revolver twice b/c I was in a fight for my life and the last time three shots were needed to put the suspect down. The important thing is regular range time so that your skills don’t deminish.
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Old 04-14-2018, 11:17 AM
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IN THEORY, AT LEAST, jimmyj.....

SEVERAL REPUTABLE STUDIES HAVE DETERMINED THAT THE MOST "ONE SHOT STOPS" ARE ATTRIBUTED TO THE 125GR. .357 MAGNUM ROUND......
I more or less agree, although I'd word it differently.

Even if you argue about methodology and whether the .357 Magnum's percentages are really higher (around 94-96% for the best .357 Magnum loads compared to around 90-95% for the best .45 ACP loads, 90 to 94% for the best .40 S&W loads, 90-92% for the best .44 Mag loads, 90% for the best 9mm loads, and 90% for the best .41 Mag load), it's safe to say that while some may do as well, nothing does the job better than the .357 Magnum. It's in the sweet spot for a combination of terminal ballistics and controllability. In comparison the 2" 38 Special is in the 65% range and the best 4" .38 special load is right at 80%.

The relative performance of the .357 Mag is the same in the multiple hit data where the .357 Magnum, .40 S&W and .45 ACP all score in the 96-97% range. The .44 Mag interestingly is only 91%. The 2" .38 is still in the 65-67% range and the best 4" .38 load was only 84%.

In short, two things appear in the data:

1) There isn't much to choose from between the .357 Mag, .40 S&W and the .45 ACP; and

2) The .38 Special isn't in the same class, even with a 4" barrel and with a 2" barrel it takes a significant real world performance penalty.

If you plan to be effective with a snub nose .38 Special, bullet placement is extremely important, so you need to practice with it enough for the use of your sights to be second nature, and enough to be both fast and accurate. Speed and accuracy have to carry the day, because you're short on the power side of the triangle.
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Old 04-14-2018, 11:19 AM
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Im not impressed with anything coming out of a snub 38,,, compact 9mm beats it easily with more rounds flatter profile and less recoil.
I think you might be " impressed " if you were ever shot with one.
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Old 04-14-2018, 11:31 AM
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Im not impressed with anything coming out of a snub 38,,, compact 9mm beats it easily with more rounds flatter profile and less recoil.
The only problem with the micro 9's is reliability, which the revolver owns.
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Old 04-14-2018, 01:40 PM
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People shouldn't get hung up on the " one-shot stops " statistics too much.
Even those statistics can be misleading, because many times the person being shot is hit more than once. The more hits there are, the less the caliber and load matters.
Some say that anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice, at least ( if possible ). While that could potentially be problematic later in court in a few instances, overall I can't fault that logic.
The important thing is, pick a good, reliable gun and load that is fun, or at least not too unpleasant to practice with, that is not too big or heavy to carry, do QUALITY practice as often as you can, get a good non-nylon holster or two, and go on about your business.
Don't discount the effectiveness of .38 hollow-based full wadcutters, or even the little .22 LR either.
ANY GUN IS BETTER THAN NO GUN. We all know of people who were raped, assaulted, and murdered because they did not have a gun.
Pretty rare to hear about someone who was assaulted and killed because the gun or caliber they used to defend themselves was too small.

Last edited by smoothshooter; 04-14-2018 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 04-14-2018, 01:45 PM
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The only problem with the micro 9's is reliability, which the revolver owns.
Let's stop this train before it derails any further. There is a distinct difference between a compact 9mm and micro 9mm.

The Micro 9 and Sig 938 are just that - micro 9mm pistols. I do not like the micro 9mms because even if they run properly, (and some do just fine with some loads) they are hard to shoot well and the recoil is objectionable enough that no one shoots them enough to get good enough with them to be any mire effective than a J-frame.

The Micro 9 is just a wee bit longer than the Kimber Micro in .380 and below you can see the difference between a Kimber Micro and a "compact" 9mm- a CY 2075 RAMI, a double stack, 10+1 round 9mm Para pistol:



The "compact" sized CZ 2075 is as small as I go with a 9mm pistol, as it is readily concealable but still large enough and heavy enough to be comfortable to shoot, shoot accurately and shoot at speed with a self defense load.
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Old 04-14-2018, 02:21 PM
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Having been “there” more than once all I can tell you is every situation is different so all this double tap & mag dump talk means little. One time I fired only one shot b/c it did the job, another I emptied my revolver twice b/c I was in a fight for my life and the last time three shots were needed to put the suspect down. The important thing is regular range time so that your skills don’t deminish.
GREAT ADVICE FROM A GUY THAT'S BEEN THERE ! ! !

THANKS FOR YOUR YEARS OF SERVICE, ON THE THIN BLUE LINE, Old cop.....
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Old 04-14-2018, 05:30 PM
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Yeh didnt say anything about Micro,, I said 9's about the same size and weight of the typical J frame,, Guns like Glock 26, Ruger LCpS Pro,, all have about a 3.5 barrel, and a grip large enough to get your hole hand on.
I mean Snubby has some advantages, simplicity and ability to cycle in a jacket pocket,,, which could be a good thing.
But "fire power" any way u measure it isnt one of them.
Higher recoil, less energy, less rounds.
I see these snubby ammo debates, like debating whats the best turbo for a yugo,,, umm While u can debate whats adequate, all you want I think most would agree, if X size weight can do Y,,, heavier weight or faster velocity, or both can do Y better.
I really think a 357 starts to shine at 3".
Speaking of that and the one shot stop data.
Cause and effect. Just because B follows A, doesnt mean A caused B.
Just look at these threads. Probably 90% on here buy 357,,, maybe put a round or two down range then carry or shoot 38.
I highly suspect the 357 125 grs have a high success rate at least partially from the type of people most likely to carry such ammo.
They probably are just more consistent more proficient shooters.
For me No 38 snub nose ammo meets my minimum needs.
I am a big strong guy. I dont go to bars or bad neighborhoods or malls at night. I maintain situational awareness, I carry pepper spray. The likely hood of anyone unarmed tangling with me are probably slime to none. The likely hood of me using deadly force against anyone unarmed is even less than slim to none..
Sorry but the balistics of a 1,87 38 just aint gonna cut it for me,, Especially when I can carry the same size platform and be firing 147's at 1000 fps and thats just when i am buy my self and only feel the need to pocket carry. Otherwise I move up to a LWT Cdr 45 or 3" 357.
Now for a woman, or other less physical person or less into guns I think a small 38 is awsome.
They are more likely to be attacked by someone unarmed, the simplicity is great.. Face it alot of folks are intimidated by autos. Nothing wrong with that. And As I said before. Best thing IMO about a 38 is you can put your hand on the gun in your pocket and no one the wiser. If the case may be.
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Old 04-15-2018, 12:27 AM
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People shouldn't get hung up on the " one-shot stops " statistics too much.
I agree. I don't know how they can be taken seriously when there are so many variables involved. Those statistics are far from scientific.
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Old 04-15-2018, 02:12 AM
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Talk to big game hunters, ask em what works,,,
Big honking bullets with enough velocity to fully penetrate but not too much so most of it's energy gets dumped in target
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Old 04-20-2018, 06:11 PM
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As to women being intimidated by auto loaders I gave both of our grown daughters a .22 revolver. One got a Model 317 snub she keeps in her hairstyling shop. Our other girl got a Ruger .22 all steel snub b/c she’s more recoil sensitive, even with a twenty-two.
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:57 PM
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...will still be going strong generations in the future, or at least until a Death Ray is widely used. Unfortunately, I have a genetic condition that makes me extremely sensitive to loud noises. That's a terrible affliction for one who loves guns and shooting like I do.

NOW, for the Double Whammy!

I am also extremely sensitive to recoil. I can flinch, even when shooting my .22 Rifle, which I know, after years and thousands of rounds, doesn't kick!
I could be the poster boy for "We shoot best what kicks us least!"

Given to day's legal mind-set, and the demonization of people who like and use guns, a shooter is starting from a poor position, even if he/she shoots in clear self-defense, no matter if they are of small stature and/or a senior whose physical capabilities may be less than desired. A non-lethal response and removing oneself from the vicinity immediately may answer.

But, given no other option, a reliable (From a major manufacturer) standard, Full Wadcutter, or+P load In either a steel snubby or a full-size gun may be a good option, given enough trips to the range for familiarization and accuracy. Leave the blue whistlers to those who like them, and can handle them with acceptable accuracy.

Last edited by sniper; 04-24-2018 at 02:00 PM.
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