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Old 05-01-2018, 12:43 AM
davemercer davemercer is offline
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Default Collecting State sales tax on internet sales. Affect on ammo purchases

I understand the Supreme Court is taking up the question of permitting States to require internet seller to collect State sales taxes. I think most ammo sellers could be affected, but not really sure. Any insights or opinions on potential impacts on ammo prices and availability appreciated.

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Old 05-01-2018, 01:28 AM
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It would kill internet sales - which is probably the intent.
In my experience shipping charges are generally offset by the lack of sales tax. If we have to start paying sales taxes AND shipping, the cost advantage to internet buying will almost disappear.
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Old 05-01-2018, 03:07 AM
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It would kill internet sales - which is probably the intent.
In my experience shipping charges are generally offset by the lack of sales tax. If we have to start paying sales taxes AND shipping, the cost advantage to internet buying will almost disappear.
"It would kill internet sales - which is probably the intent."

It has absolutely nothing to do with "killing internet sales". Why would the states care as long as you play by the rules! It has everything to with state tax revenue that is being evaded by purchasing on the Internet and failing to declare those purchases to your state!

You have obviously forgotten that probably the vast majority of Internet sales are about availability and not pricing! And it isn't all about ammunition.

The other side of the coin as it were is state tax revenue. Many states have a tax referred to as "Use Tax", which is generally at the same rate as the same state's sales tax. I will bet that one of the questions on your State Income Tax form is how many $$$ in internet purchases have you made? If you fail to declare these purchases you are guilty of tax evasion, usually classified as a felony! Sort of takes the fun out of all the taxes you failed to pay by buying on the 'net and thinking you were getting a deal because you didn't pay sales tax on the purchase, doesn't it????
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Old 05-01-2018, 06:28 AM
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I ordered some stuff off Amazon yesterday and was surprised to see an estimated tax charged. I hadn't seen that before.
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Old 05-01-2018, 07:41 AM
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I can't help thinking that it is unconstitutional. States are not permitted to regulate interstate commerce. Of course, the Constitution is largely irrelevant in our current legal system, so we shall see . . .
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Old 05-01-2018, 07:42 AM
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I ordered some stuff off Amazon yesterday and was surprised to see an estimated tax charged. I hadn't seen that before.
amazon always taxes my purchases. Since they have a warehouse in Texas they are required to do so. Maybe they've recently acquired one in NM?
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Old 05-01-2018, 08:00 AM
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I can't help thinking that it is unconstitutional. States are not permitted to regulate interstate commerce. Of course, the Constitution is largely irrelevant in our current legal system, so we shall see . . .
Supreme Court Not Sold on Ending Online Sales Tax Ban
Justice Kagan submits that this issue would be best decided by congress in oral arguments. Imagin that!!!
We'll know in a few months
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Old 05-01-2018, 08:03 AM
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My Internet shopping will be unchanged if sales tax is universally added.
The convenience of shopping the continent from home, for items that may not be available locally, and then have them land at my front door, is value added to me.
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Old 05-01-2018, 08:54 AM
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50 states, each with hundreds of local taxing authorities (cities, counties, fire protection districts, library districts, regional transportation authorities, etc). Individual zip codes may span multiple taxing authorities. Staying current on all of this data, by delivery address, would require a huge database and constant updating. Remitting collected revenues to each authority would require considerable time and expense.

Call me naïve or stupid, but my position is that someone forced by action of law to perform the collection of taxes should be paid for doing so.

Those most seriously affected by such a requirement will be the smaller companies, especially the 'mom & pop shops'. Probably no alternative other than subscribing to a service for collecting all accounts, keeping track of sales taxes (by delivery address), remitting receipts to proper authorities, etc, all of which will have to be done for a fee.

Seriously, I can't imagine sitting down every month, filling out several thousands sales & use tax returns, writing checks for each, and licking all those darn stamps. There just wouldn't be any time left to do business, much less any spit left at all.
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:02 AM
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I am not a lawyer. But it seems to me, If I live in Michigan and send money to a firm in North Carolina (besides it being Interstate Commerce and a Federal issue which has been mentioned) the SALE took place in North Carolina. The money (or running of the credit slip) and the goods crossed paths in NC.

No different than if I buy something at Cabellas in Indiana and drive it back home.
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:09 AM
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We are definitely not taxed enough. I think we should all pay more. Much more.

Yeah, right!

But in regard to ammo, I still manage to do better buying locally despite having to pay MA sales tax... plus I try to support my preferred local shops that way. Keeps them in business with things kinda bad up here right now. And maybe I just don't consume enough ammo lately for it to make a big difference.

I could always drive up to the "Live Free or Die" state and load up without any sales tax, but so far it hasn't been worth the time & effort (and gasoline!).
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:14 AM
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I am not a lawyer. But it seems to me, If I live in Michigan and send money to a firm in North Carolina (besides it being Interstate Commerce and a Federal issue which has been mentioned) the SALE took place in North Carolina. The money (or running of the credit slip) and the goods crossed paths in NC.

No different than if I buy something at Cabellas in Indiana and drive it back home.
This is MUCH too simple so it would never work! Seriously, I agree with you 100%, but I’m sure states like Indiana wouldn’t like it.
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Old 05-01-2018, 10:32 AM
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50 states, each with hundreds of local taxing authorities (cities, counties, fire protection districts, library districts, regional transportation authorities, etc). Individual zip codes may span multiple taxing authorities. Staying current on all of this data, by delivery address, would require a huge database and constant updating. Remitting collected revenues to each authority would require considerable time and expense.

Call me naïve or stupid, but my position is that someone forced by action of law to perform the collection of taxes should be paid for doing so.

Those most seriously affected by such a requirement will be the smaller companies, especially the 'mom & pop shops'. Probably no alternative other than subscribing to a service for collecting all accounts, keeping track of sales taxes (by delivery address), remitting receipts to proper authorities, etc, all of which will have to be done for a fee.

Seriously, I can't imagine sitting down every month, filling out several thousands sales & use tax returns, writing checks for each, and licking all those darn stamps. There just wouldn't be any time left to do business, much less any spit left at all.


Absolutely agree with the above comments!!
The smaller places will ignore it because of the time required to comply.
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Old 05-01-2018, 10:46 AM
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"It would kill internet sales - which is probably the intent."

It has absolutely nothing to do with "killing internet sales". Why would the states care as long as you play by the rules! It has everything to with state tax revenue that is being evaded by purchasing on the Internet and failing to declare those purchases to your state!

You have obviously forgotten that probably the vast majority of Internet sales are about availability and not pricing! And it isn't all about ammunition.

The other side of the coin as it were is state tax revenue. Many states have a tax referred to as "Use Tax", which is generally at the same rate as the same state's sales tax. I will bet that one of the questions on your State Income Tax form is how many $$$ in internet purchases have you made? If you fail to declare these purchases you are guilty of tax evasion, usually classified as a felony! Sort of takes the fun out of all the taxes you failed to pay by buying on the 'net and thinking you were getting a deal because you didn't pay sales tax on the purchase, doesn't it????
You have obviously mistaken me for ignorant - as you so often seem to do in so many of your replies to to many people.

FWIW, my state does not HAVE a State Income Tax Form - we don't have an income tax. So that part of your lecture about taxation is wrong in regards to Washington - as well as any other states that have no income tax. Here we have a very high sales tax, and very high property taxes to offset the revenue that might otherwise be collected from an income tax instead.

Part of your info is correct in that Washington tax law does include a "use tax" provision where one is supposed to declare internet purchases and even barter transactions for the purpose of paying taxes on the value of goods and services received. However because the filing takes extra effort, is on the honor system, and is unknown to the majority of people, as well as being unenforced, and virtually unenforceable at this time, I'll wager that there aren't too many copies of that particular form being filed.

My reference to "the intent" is not specific to ammo sales but rather to all internet sales. Most states DO care about more than just the sales tax revenue. They also care about things like jobs, property taxes, and other taxes generated by a brick & mortar store. While large internet operations like Amazon warehouses generate some of those benefits in the locales where they are built, I think it is pretty safe to say that most states would benefit more if all internet sales were replaced by local merchant sales. However, since that is a bell that obviously can never be un-rung, collecting taxes on internet purchases is the next best thing, so that is what they are doing. Ask them and I guarantee that "leveling the playing field" between internet sales and local businesses is one of their stated goals behind implementing taxes on internet sales.

BTW, since you are so knowledgeable and strident in your declarations about sales tax law, am I to assume you complying and declaring ALL of your internet purchases for purposes of state taxation - to avoid felonious tax evasion?

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Old 05-01-2018, 10:54 AM
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I ordered some stuff off Amazon yesterday and was surprised to see an estimated tax charged. I hadn't seen that before.
If they operate a brick and mortar location in your state, internet sellers already have to charge sales tax. Amazon has warehouses in a LOT (maybe the majority?) of states across the country, so they are charging sales tax on purchases shipped to all those states now.
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Old 05-01-2018, 10:58 AM
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I am not a lawyer. But it seems to me, If I live in Michigan and send money to a firm in North Carolina (besides it being Interstate Commerce and a Federal issue which has been mentioned) the SALE took place in North Carolina. The money (or running of the credit slip) and the goods crossed paths in NC.

No different than if I buy something at Cabellas in Indiana and drive it back home.
See this I could agree with.. Sales tax of the physical location of the vendor. IF they have a location in the state of the buyer, that location's taxes would apply. I also think it withstands Constitutional scrutiny better. AND, it makes states, who want this tax revenue, foster a climate that attracts those businesses.

Illinois is trying to pass a bill to force all sellers to Illinois buyers to pay taxes to the state, regardless of where they are located. Opposition pointed out they should see if other, similar laws are shown to be unconstitutional. The State legislature just wants to capitalize on other state's commerce and use it to alleviate the horrendous fiscal state the state is in (while they continue to drive businesses out of the state).

Sorry, should NOT be able to have their cake and eat it too. Ney, should NOT be able to have someone else's cake and eat it too..
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:03 AM
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Any of the major resellers, Amazon, JC Penny, Lowes, Home Depot, etc have taken taxes for years. if they have any physical presence in your state, I have been taxed while living in pennsylvania and now Washington.

At least that has been my experience.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:24 AM
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. Illinois is trying to pass a bill to force all sellers to Illinois buyers to pay taxes to the state, regardless of where they are located. Opposition pointed out they should see if other, similar laws are shown to be unconstitutional. The State legislature just wants to capitalize on other state's commerce and use it to alleviate the horrendous fiscal state the state is in (while they continue to drive businesses out of the state).
Sorry, should NOT be able to have their cake and eat it too. Ney, should NOT be able to have someone else's cake and eat it too..
^^^^^^^^^^
This is definitely the truth. Politicians see any potential income as a way to fund useless programs in their jurisdictions on the backs of businesses in other jurisdictions....requiring them to collect and forward tax money to them. Being from Md ...many years ago the governor actually had people arrested who while in (let's use Virginia)Virginia and bought a carton of cigarettes for driving back home in Md for violation of Maryland's tobacco tax laws. It really didn't fly. Court said buying something out of state for personal consumption was not illegal. So all of you remember...buy a bottle of booze in one state taking it home in another not only incurs sales tax but alcohol taxes etc...much less dry county laws...state liquor stores. I buy stuff in a sales tax free state for personal consumption..and will refuse to pay sales tax in another location I did not purchase it in. And yes...I understand use tax.

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Old 05-01-2018, 12:20 PM
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At least in CA this is not an issue. It is, as of January 1, specifically illegal for a CA resident to import ammunition into CA. That includes internet purchases or buying ammo out of state and bringing it back in with you. ALL new ammo purchases in CA must now be conducted face-to-face in a retail store specifically licensed to sell ammunition. (You can buy it out of state and shoot it there, but if you bring it back across the border you are committing a crime and could be arrested for it.)
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Old 05-01-2018, 08:13 PM
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At least in CA this is not an issue. It is, as of January 1, specifically illegal for a CA resident to import ammunition into CA. That includes internet purchases or buying ammo out of state and bringing it back in with you. ALL new ammo purchases in CA must now be conducted face-to-face in a retail store specifically licensed to sell ammunition. (You can buy it out of state and shoot it there, but if you bring it back across the border you are committing a crime and could be arrested for it.)
Not entirely true. With a Type 03 C&R License and a Certificate of Eligibility one can still order ammunition online and have it shipped directly to their door. Of course you need to find a cooperative online seller but there are quite a few.

Regarding paying sales tax. Amazon has been charging tax on CA shipments for several years now and many other large profile online sellers do. You just have to shop for deals on the price of items or look for things like free or low cost/flat rate shipping to help offset the sales tax.
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Old 05-01-2018, 08:54 PM
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Default It’s known as the Amazon Tax

New Zealand and Australia both have a “goods and services” tax know as GST. In Aus it is 10% on all items sold except housing and fresh food. In NZ it is 15% on everything except housing.

For many years brick and mortor retailers in both countries have been asking governments to impose GST on overseas internet sales. Both countries introduced a “Netflix” tax on online streaming services a few years ago. Australia’s Amazonian comes into effect in July. Yesterday the NZ government announced that overseas purchases from Amazon, E-Bay etc will require the selling or operating site to collect GST and forward it to them. If they refuse there are reciprocal tax collecting arrangements in force with governments all over the world.

Not that this will stop internet purchases at all. It is not just the price that makes internet shopping attractive. In fact postage can often double the price paid while internet currency conversions are, quite frankly, a rip off for the buyer.

Pay Pal, for example, always short changes the exchange rate by quite a bit. And for me to buy a US $49 vest from Gentlemenks Emporium costs another US$50 in shipping.

Often it is simply the fact that we cannot buy what we want here.
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Old 05-03-2018, 11:19 AM
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Been thinking about this since yesterday..15% goods and services tax??? That is a huge amount of money in my opinion. Not being able to buy an item I do understand. miniscule sales means miniscule reasons to stock an item...especially when the merchandiser has to pay to import it. And 15% tax even on food is unconscionable. What does the government use that money for? I do understand a sales tax but 15%...or even 10% is just wrong. I know many will not agree but it seems that the politicians we elect tax us all so they can spend the money on pet projects that are "for the common good". Do y'all have high income tax rates in Aus and NZ? Is the gummit paying tuition for college or trade schools like they do in some European countries? My sister just returned from a trip to NZ...told me it was beautiful and had some great photos...My only contact with fellows from down there was during the VN era. Met some great guys from Aus.. remembering back...they were even crazier than I was....maybe...15%!! wow
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Old 05-03-2018, 02:29 PM
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Been thinking about this since yesterday..15% goods and services tax??? That is a huge amount of money in my opinion. Not being able to buy an item I do understand. miniscule sales means miniscule reasons to stock an item...especially when the merchandiser has to pay to import it. And 15% tax even on food is unconscionable. What does the government use that money for? I do understand a sales tax but 15%...or even 10% is just wrong. I know many will not agree but it seems that the politicians we elect tax us all so they can spend the money on pet projects that are "for the common good". Do y'all have high income tax rates in Aus and NZ? Is the gummit paying tuition for college or trade schools like they do in some European countries?...15%!! wow
^^THIS^^
In most cases 15% is more than the profit margin on sale of the items.

So we're talking about the GOVERNMENT collecting more tax money on goods and services (that they don't lift a finger to provide), than the businesses that actually provide those goods and services.

This is already true for fuel. Both the State and the Fed collect more in taxes than the businesses selling the fuel OR the distributors who deliver it OR the refineries that make it.

What's wrong with THIS picture?

Last edited by BC38; 05-03-2018 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 05-03-2018, 03:03 PM
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Collecting State sales tax on internet sales. Affect on ammo purchases Collecting State sales tax on internet sales. Affect on ammo purchases Collecting State sales tax on internet sales. Affect on ammo purchases Collecting State sales tax on internet sales. Affect on ammo purchases Collecting State sales tax on internet sales. Affect on ammo purchases  
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.
I do understand the reason for taxes on commodities. The Federal taxes on say gasoline go into the highway trust funds to pay for the (mostly) good roads we enjoy in the US. That said I remember when the tobacco companies were blamed for the tobacco debacle. I remember the states and Feds saying they were going to raise tobacco taxes to fund smoking cessation programs and if I remember right they were going to use the great amount of tax moneys to help pay for cancer research and medical costs for former tobacco users. What ever happened to those programs? Just a year or two ago they had a referendum in Park County here in Wy to raise sales taxes by 1% to fund(as they called it)infrastructure repairs in the county. Meaning as they stated roads bridges etc. That money is supposed to come from gasoline tax money. Says to me that the money for those items is being spent somewhere else or at the very least unwisely....and that the powers that be just want MORE money to spend unwisely. Seems to me that the push to collect taxes on internet sales is just a move to get even moe of our money into the government(local state and federal)coffers. I do however understand that internet sales have blown way up. Does it really affect local sales of items? Or is the push for taxes on internet sales just a way for companies to shut down sellers such as Amazon or Costco etc? As far as states that are in such financial trouble..No matter how much they collect...they will always continue to tax and spend more....such as California and others.
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Old 05-03-2018, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Bait View Post
I ordered some stuff off Amazon yesterday and was surprised to see an estimated tax charged. I hadn't seen that before.
Since Amazon has a physical presence in my state, sales tax is collected. Same for Academy stores, but they have free shipping. Cabela's USED to be a good deal for me until BASS bought them. Even though the closest Cabela's is 2 states away, because BASS has a presence, my Cabvela's orders now have ales tax.

Sales tax, on interstate purchases is called a USE tax; it is the same rate and is SUPPOSED to be voluntarily remitted quarterly, as explained above.
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Old 05-03-2018, 03:25 PM
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[QUOTE
I will bet that one of the questions on your State Income Tax form is how many $$$ in internet purchases have you made? If you fail to declare these purchases you are guilty of tax evasion, usually classified as a felony! Sort of takes the fun out of all the taxes you failed to pay by buying on the 'net and thinking you were getting a deal because you didn't pay sales tax on the purchase, doesn't it????[/QUOTE]

Dang it, I must'a sped read right over that one! Now I won't sleep a wink all night!
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Old 05-03-2018, 07:04 PM
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Luckily Wyoming has no state income tax.....yet anyway. When we moved out here we chose to live in Wy rather than the place in Montana because of the taxes and the left coasters changing the political climate in Montana
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:25 PM
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See this I could agree with.. Sales tax of the physical location of the vendor. IF they have a location in the state of the buyer, that location's taxes would apply. I also think it withstands Constitutional scrutiny better. AND, it makes states, who want this tax revenue, foster a climate that attracts those businesses.

Illinois is trying to pass a bill to force all sellers to Illinois buyers to pay taxes to the state, regardless of where they are located. Opposition pointed out they should see if other, similar laws are shown to be unconstitutional. The State legislature just wants to capitalize on other state's commerce and use it to alleviate the horrendous fiscal state the state is in (while they continue to drive businesses out of the state).

Sorry, should NOT be able to have their cake and eat it too. Ney, should NOT be able to have someone else's cake and eat it too..
Washington is trying to pull the same stunt. The areas around the Puget Sound have put a tax on every thing you can think of. Seattle put additional taxes on guns AND ammo. Now they have levied a $275 annual tax PER EMPLOYEE on all businesses.

They are driving businesses out of their area by making it too expensive to operate a business there. But their appetite for tax revenue is still voracious and insatiable, so now they are trying to figure out how to tax all internet sales by sending threatening letters to internet sellers saying they have to report all internet sales made to Washington residents.

My question is, how are they going to enforce that? Unless an internet retailer voluntarily agrees to report all sales to Washington residents, what is the state of Washington going to do about it? How could the state even know that I bought something from Missouri Bullets unless one of us informs them?

Just one more scheme attempting to separate us citizens from more of our money.

Last edited by BC38; 06-13-2018 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:34 PM
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Collecting State sales tax on internet sales. Affect on ammo purchases Collecting State sales tax on internet sales. Affect on ammo purchases Collecting State sales tax on internet sales. Affect on ammo purchases Collecting State sales tax on internet sales. Affect on ammo purchases Collecting State sales tax on internet sales. Affect on ammo purchases  
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Well online sellers should then to get a fee for collecting/bookkeeping the tax for states they do not have a presence in.

Taxation Without Representation....
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