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Old 07-25-2018, 04:36 AM
Naphtali Naphtali is offline
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Fired from the typical S&W Military & Police/Model 10 or Colt Official Police four-inch barreled revolver - the ubiquitous side arm of uniformed LEOs from the 1970s through the transition to semiautomatic pistols - would any of the Remington/Winchester/Federal 38 Special +P LSWC-HP ammunitions effective against car doors? Would any penetrate a car door of the circa 1970s American-made sedan and retain its self-defense effectiveness?
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Old 07-25-2018, 06:49 AM
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I don't think so. After penetrating the thick sheet metal and various plastic foam boards it won't penetrate much else after that.

I think a model 28 would do better.
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Old 07-25-2018, 07:24 AM
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The metal, glass, and plastic in the door is definitely going to slow and deform any bullet, greatly reducing its terminal effectiveness.

Remember what Dirty Harry Callahan said, "The .357 is a good weapon but I've seen .38s bounce off windshields." LOL!
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Old 07-25-2018, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oysterer View Post
I don't think so. After penetrating the thick sheet metal and various plastic foam boards it won't penetrate much else after that.

I think a model 28 would do better.
How would a model 28 "do better"? A Model 28 is chambered in .357 Magnum, and is of course capable of shooting .38 Special ammunition, but how would it "do better" with the same ammo that the OP was asking about? If you're saying that there would be better results (penetration) if the user was shooting .357 Magnum ammunition from a Model 28, then there might be slightly better performance in my opinion, but I wouldn't think it would be substantially better.

Regards,

Dave
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Old 07-25-2018, 08:24 AM
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Not in a movie, but in real life. I have seen 158 grain ..38s ricochet off windshields and rear glass, leaving only a smear. IIRC, the FBI load was a 110 grain bullet. Effective as a bullet against live targets, but not against vehicles. I still have several hundred "Treasury" loads which I think are the same thing.

Jack
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Old 07-25-2018, 08:42 AM
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I doubt any .38 Special round of that era would have been consistently effective against metal barriers; probably a .357 (or .38/44 Heavy Duty equivalent load) would. But that would have been when rifled slugs out of a 12 gauge would have been good to use

The "Treasury" load was the 110 gr +P+, rumored to be why early model 640s were engraved "Tested for..."
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Old 07-25-2018, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Double-O-Dave View Post
How would a model 28 "do better"?
I think the model 28 was quite common as a LEO carry in those days and a 357 out of a model 28 of course is what I meant would be better than a model 10 with 38 +P. But I still think even 357 hollow points could be substantially deformed and slowed down to be effective beyond the doors. Not by the sheet metal alone but by various hardware inside the door.

So let's speed things up and use a model 58 41 magnum and not worry about 38 +P. But those were rare and not many departments used them. I love mine.
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:32 AM
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The old FBI round was ineffective as a car door penetrator, but it was a very effective anti-personnel round. A neighboring large municipal department used to issue that round, and I can't remember too many OIS where the suspect survived.

My agency carried the 110 grain +P+ Treasury round, but I would have much preferred the FBI round, which I carried in my backup and off-duty Model 60.
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:37 AM
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Some 10 years ago or so I tested a .38 Special 158 grain +P load against a 1992 Dodge pickup right front fender. Really it was just preparatory to a test of various .380 ACP and .25 ACP loads and all done just for fun.

Fired from a Model 10 Heavy Barrel, the 158 grain lead SWC slug did penetrate the fender and an inner fender, striking a carefully positioned target disc with force enough to spin it over. Now the discs on that particular homemade target will only flip over, and flip over a single time for +P 158 grain .38 Special loads or 147 grain 9mm loads when squarely struck without an intervening obstruction. No other .38 Special or 9mm loadings, +P or not will manage to do more than set the discs to swinging. The discs pinwheel merrily when struck with .45 ACP, which is what desired by the fellow who made the target. Does it prove a thing? Nope, but I'm not hiding behind automotive sheet metal in an effort to be secure from incoming .38 Special rounds.




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Old 07-25-2018, 09:51 AM
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Hide behind the engine block or wheels..... ........ IIRC one of the reasons the .357 became popular in the 1930s with Highway Patrols and State Troopers was its ability to penetrate automobiles.

As a Motorcycle officer in 1938 my Dad opted for a 6" Colt New Service in .357 for his duty gun.......by the late 60s as a Captain he mostly carried a two or four inch .38 with "Police Only" +P .38 SWCHP ammo. But that old Colt was in his desk drawer loaded with IIRC .357 158 grain soft points.
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Old 07-25-2018, 10:23 AM
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In my career, I have fired many times at a vehicle with a Model 15 and the Model 19 combat Masterpiece. They all went through and no bouncers!

We used Super Vel ammo in our .38 and .357:

supervel

Look it up and read about it!
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Old 07-25-2018, 10:30 AM
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Back in the 70s and early 80s there was much debate about the Police's "need" for .357 magnum ammo..... a lot of the hot .38s sold as "Police only"/"Law Enforcement only" were really light .357s loaded in .38 cases to avoid the politics.
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Old 07-25-2018, 11:07 AM
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FBI loads...no...

Friend on Dallas PD who is now a deputy chief was involved in a shooting with some robbery suspects back about 1980. Fired two rounds at the windshield of the suspect vehicle as it closed on him putting both rounds right in front of the driver...both bounced off. He stepped aside and fired three rounds at the drivers door unfortunately hitting the door not the window..distance probably 3'...left three dents in the door... A few days later he switched to a 6.5" Model 27-2 with real .357s on board.

Friend and I were at the DPD range practicing about 1981. I had a .38 Super and my friend a Browning HP 9mm. There was a stand on the corner USPS Mail Box that had seen better days so we added two more rounds to the box... Both were lead TC ammo not overly warm...both went through both sides of the box. A friend, who just retired last year, showed up with his city issue 64 and city issue FBI load... We showed him our holes and he decided to try...at the shot I stated laughing...exact quote.."why are you laughing...you are always laughing at my city issue.." I said..."Because your bullet is stuck in the side of the mail box"... "It is not"...but upon inspection it was... He backed off and tried again putting another round right next to the first...with the same results... He showed up a few days later with a 27-2 6.5" with real .357 ammo...

In 1972 I was working for US Customs in Houston. One of the guys I met had a son who was with Houston PD. The son was a rookie during the 68 riots and had a gunfight with two guys hiding behind a stand on the corner USPD mail box... He was across the street behind a telephone pole. He emptied his .38 revolver at the pair and as he was reloading a car came and picked up the two shooters. A few days later he was able to inspect the box and there were 5 dents in the side...he went out and bought a 57 6" nickel.... Not sure if this was the FBI load or just RN...would have made no difference anyway.

Bob

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Old 07-25-2018, 02:01 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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In the early 1970's I spent a lot of time shooting up cars to check penetration. If the windows were up and you were shooting at right angles to the door, a lot of rounds would enter the car interior. We did also use 3/4 plywood targets to see if there was enough energy to inflict a serious wound, but I don't recall those results.

The real issue was if there was any angle to the shot, virtually nothing went through, if it did, the deflections were weird and unpredictable. Even with .44 Magnum Kieth loads that would enter the trunk and leave through the grill on a straight on shot.

I recall an IPSC match in the 1980s where the Director used his new truck as "cover" for one of the stages. One of a group of cops from the local big city pulled a round low firing over the bed. We heard the impact and when the line was clear, we ran forward to look at the expected holes in the fender. No holes. The issue 158 RNL round impacted the inside lip of the bed where the outer & inner fender panels are spot welded together and only dented the metal. Didn't even knock the paint off.

The stories above about mail boxes are concerning. They used to be touted as cover.

Last edited by WR Moore; 07-25-2018 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 07-26-2018, 02:58 AM
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Soft lead bullets were never intended for shooting through metal; too much deformation at impact reduces penetration. The .38-44 .38 Special load was developed in the 30's to engage felons in automobiles. There were round nosed Metal Point 158 gr bullets that addressed the problem too. I have some 150 gr.38 and 158 gr .357 pointed, metal penetrating rounds from the 70's. They both have decent penetration in car doors provided that no heavy structures inside the door are hit.
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Old 07-26-2018, 08:19 AM
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While I’m not doubting any of the stories here I can only relate my own experiences. In one gunfight I did shoot through the front windshield of an old Dodge using my Colt DS loaded w/ high velocity 158 grain lead round nose. In one other instance, using my issued 4” Model 15 loaded w/the +P 158 grain hollow point, I dropped a suspect who was holding a hostage at knife point. I never had to shoot through a car door but did work one case where officers did shoot through a car door using their issued Glock 23 but cannot recall what round was used beyond a hollowpoint.
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Old 07-26-2018, 01:13 PM
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Angle of shot into metal or auto glass not only affects trajectory and how the bullet impacts initially, but also increases the depth to be penetrated. It was the main reason why they sloped armor on tanks, if you hit something at a 30 degree angle it meant penetrating double the amount of the material, armor or otherwise. Things like armor plate can quadruple their protection when being doubled, and certain materials will gain more resistance in the same way (car sheet metal might resist a round more than 200% even if the actual extra material to pierce is technically 200% due to a 30 degree angle hit). Small changes can lead to massive differences in final performance in real life situations.

Add in changes to metalurgy of car doors, hardness of the particular factory swaged bullet you are firing, how "hot" your rounds are running in your particular service revolver, we cannot be surprised if real life experiences come back with vastly different outcomes. Ford Pinto or my Lincoln Mk5? As has been stated, glass is where during the shootout, rolled down leaves no protection in the windowed area but also means rounds through the door have to pierce through the door AND the window. Everything affects everything.

As for end performance. even high end modern hollow points are known for lack of expansion after punching through barriers, simply boils down to lack of power after punching through material. The FBI load probably would not either, of course. One could argue that the SJHP is superior in revolvers over JHP bullets, but modern JHP's are suggested for those who still carry them because the full jacket protects the hollow point from deformation when fired through solid barriers. In any case, I wouldn't count on them expanding.
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Old 07-26-2018, 05:42 PM
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The Model 10 is not rated for +P ammo. I had to research to see where to get standard .38 Special ammo for my Model 10.
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Old 07-26-2018, 06:11 PM
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I was issued a S&W Model 10 with a 4" bull barrel. It was a 1986 vintage and we were issued 158 gr., LSWC in 38 spl.+P. My Model 10 was rated for +P ammo. The issued rounds bounced of tires, but went through fenders and car doors. It would go through a windshield if it was sort of straight on, It would deflect if it hit on an angle. I liked my Model 10 and felt comfortable with the 158 +P service round. While it wasn't the end all round it did it's job. I think a .357 Magnum out of a 28 would have been better, but that wasn't an option.
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Old 07-26-2018, 11:24 PM
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Back in the early 70s, a LEO wrote in an article about .38 Spl being shot at cars.
His comment was "Halt, or I'll scratch up your paint".
I don't remember his name, I think he was LAPD.
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Old 07-27-2018, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzShooter View Post
The Model 10 is not rated for +P ammo. I had to research to see where to get standard .38 Special ammo for my Model 10.
S&W has stated any all steel revolver with a model number (post 1957) is safe to fire with .38 Special +P ammo. This is what they said, not me. I suggest you write them and ask so you have first hand information.

Remember, you can't mark something +P before there was a +P. It's like a coin with a date 300 BC, it's not possible.
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Old 07-27-2018, 01:15 AM
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The Speer Gold Dot HP was originally designed for Dallas/Ft. Worth PD to penetrate car windshields. The FBI load was a great manstopper if there were no obstructions or cover protecting the offender, but a JHP was needed for penetration. Takeaway, only shoot perpetrators who are not hiding behind something with lead 38s. (joke). JHPs for all other humanoids.
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Old 07-27-2018, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzShooter View Post
The Model 10 is not rated for +P ammo. I had to research to see where to get standard .38 Special ammo for my Model 10.
if it says Mod 10-? on the yoke then yes you can shoot +P's.
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Old 07-27-2018, 03:28 PM
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Interesting information here. Among the facets of my query I left "open" is supposed differences in hardness among Winchester, Remington, and Federal "FBI" ammunition's LSWC-HP bullets. Another "open" issue is the apparently significant difference between American sedans' door metal, circa 1970s and 1980s, and current doors of [all] vehicles.

In 1966 while riding in a 1955 Chevrolet sedan, the car was hit by a smaller sedan head-on. The hitter and been hit in the rear by drunk driver - at high speed. To make a long story less long, our car caromed into a metal lamp post and burned. Our car suffered no metal or frame damage other than everything being burned to a crisp. Today vehicles are designed to crush or be a "non-resetting shock absorber." Mrs. Laster's smaller car was impact damaged front and rear. I suspect our car would not have burned had Mrs. Laster's car's fuel tank not been burning up her car when she hit us.

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Old 07-27-2018, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REM 3200 View Post
Back in the early 70s, a LEO wrote in an article about .38 Spl being shot at cars.
His comment was "Halt, or I'll scratch up your paint".
I don't remember his name, I think he was LAPD.
IIRC, the writer was Dean Grinnel and the reference was to the 200 gr Super Police (you should pardon the label) load. Oddly enough, the same bullet at 850-900 f/s out of a .357 romps through cars. This isn't to say that was the first time the comment was used or that it wasn't later borrowed.
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:50 PM
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I use to shoot through a junked car door with a Walker Colt reproduction back in the 70's using wheel weight lead and loaded to the max with black powder. Again this was at about 10 feet and straight on. I'm surprised with todays cars that a BB gun wouldn't shoot through doors, fenders, bumpers etc.
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Old 07-29-2018, 01:51 AM
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I'm surprised no one mentioned this video yet.

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Old 07-29-2018, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzShooter View Post
The Model 10 is not rated for +P ammo. I had to research to see where to get standard .38 Special ammo for my Model 10.
S&W has stated that any steel frame revolver with a model number, made after 1957, is safe with Plus P.

Obviously, Plus P causes more wear, so don't shoot it all the time.

The USAF experienced significant wear to both Model 36 revolvers with three-inch barrels and to the basic Model 15 from high velocity ammo.This was a prime reason why they wanted 9mm autos.

As to the OP question,I guess the FBI answered it by changing from the lead SWC-HP to a Plus P Plus 147 grain .38 load with a fully jacketed JHP, open only at the nose.

The stated reason for the change was to achieve better penetration in automobiles!

I don't know if their 145 grain .357 Silvertip JHP ammo was changed.
I know it's a real killer on humans outside of cars.

And I suspect that I'd rather have the old 158 grain lead SWC-HP in felons not in cars. Tends to work well, and has some expansion. I never saw any results cited as to how well those 147 grain bullets worked.

Texas DPS had a case where one trooper's .45 ammo wasn't penetrating a truck door. Another trooper with a .357 SIG penetrated and killed the felon. They now issue .357 SIG caliber P-226's.

Last edited by Texas Star; 07-29-2018 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 07-29-2018, 08:05 AM
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Several years ago I read a review in Ayoob's Files of a book about the
attempted assassination of President Truman, by 2 fanatical Puerto
Rican Nationalists. That happened in 1950. At that time the secret
service carried round nose lead in their .38s. As did most of the rest
of the law enforcement community.

One of the agents shot one of the bad guys, aiming betwen his eyes,
the shot went a little high and hit that bump up at the top of his
forehead. It kinda bounced off the bump and skidded across his
scalp.

I think it was at that time the secret service and other LE agencies
started looking for something more effective than the RNL. The result
was what came to known as the FBI load. I believe Winchester was
first, followed soon by Remington and Federal.

It turned out to be quite an effective load. It still is. I prefer the
Buffalo Bore Heavy 38 Spl +P. It is their item 20A/20
Lead Semi Wadcutter Hollow Core with Gas Check. 1000 FPS and
ME of 351 ft. lbs.
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Old 07-29-2018, 05:46 PM
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The initial FBI tests of 2002 may have been updated since, but it is the only FBI report I have at present. At that time the "Best" overall .38 Special cartridge performance against both steel and auto glass was the Federal 147 grain Hydra-Shock. The test gun used was a S&W M13 with a 3" barrel, with a recorded MV of 874 ft/sec. There were several other cartridges which came close.

The steel test was two separated sheets of 20 ga steel to simulate an auto door. The glass test used flat sheets of standard auto safety glass set at a 45 degree angle of impact.
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Old 07-29-2018, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
IIRC, the writer was Dean Grinnel and the reference was to the 200 gr Super Police (you should pardon the label) load. Oddly enough, the same bullet at 850-900 f/s out of a .357 romps through cars. This isn't to say that was the first time the comment was used or that it wasn't later borrowed.
The idea of the .38 S&W/.38 Special "Super Police" load with a 200 grain bullet was not to penetrate cars but to be more effective on people. It is longer than the then-standard 158 grain LRN bullet and less stable. Therefore it tends to yaw in human tissue, creating a greater wound channel. See attachment for a ca. 1962 box of Remington 200 grain .38 Special.

One of my pet peeves is that some confuse the Super Police load with the .38-44 load. They are not the same. I have even seen that confusion evident in S&W factory letters with obviously incorrect statements like "...the .38/44 revolver was designed for use with the Super Police load..."

BTW - the revolver is a .38/44. The cartridge is a .38-44. Those two are often confused also.
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File Type: jpg SuperPolice.jpg (110.0 KB, 51 views)

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Old 07-30-2018, 12:46 PM
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I'm not in law enforcement. My chances of having to shoot through a vehicle windshield or door in self defense are minuscule, much tinier even than the remote chances of my having to shoot a flesh-and-blood target to save my bacon. I won't worry about continuing to carry the .38 Special FBI load or its equivalent.

If I were in a job that might call for penetrating car bodies or windshields, I would feel better with a good load in .40 S&W or .357 SIG.

Was the purpose of the OP research for a novel or short sory?
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Old 07-30-2018, 03:34 PM
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I recall years ago shooting hot .44 mag loads from my 6" 629 at a car door. I don't recall what the junk car was that someone dragged out to the range. Yes, it would often breeze right through. But I was surprised how often they didn't fully penetrate when they hit something extra inside the door besides the one layer of sheet metal and upholstery etc.
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Old 08-15-2018, 08:29 AM
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As to the original question, besides the reports from other posters, if I had to venture a guess I'd doubt any lead HP mid-bore or smaller would go through a typical car door. Apparently big bores don't do much better.

Just wanted to add, for average CCW use against exposed targets, I've seen radically different test results from FBI loads from different manufacturers. It's still my choice for .38s, but I've switched from Federals to Winchesters.
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Old 08-19-2018, 07:52 AM
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OP, if you need to punch thru windshields and car doors then you want a semi-wadcutter Hard Cast Lead Pill. Underwood puts out a fantastic product for this. It's a 158grain Hard Cast "Keith" bullet pushed to 1200fps... and will certainly punch thru a car door and keep on chugging with little to no deformity. I've also carried a similar load for my woods load when I couldn't risk "printing" with my "N" frame M29 on the trails in Highlands NC. Some of those people see the outline of a gun on your belt and start to tear up and take pics/call the authorities... even if you are an officer yourself in plain clothes... Anyways, back to the topic... they will work on heavy pelted 4 legged threats as well. You can get them at the link provided below.

38 Special +P 158 Grain Hard Cast Keith – Underwood Ammo


For around town we use Buffalo Bore's Hard Cast, Full Wad Cutters in standard pressure for mine and the wife's "J" frames. They are devastating on soft tissue.



Last edited by HamHands; 08-19-2018 at 08:01 AM. Reason: Adding pics.
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamHands View Post
OP, if you need to punch thru windshields and car doors then you want a semi-wadcutter Hard Cast Lead Pill. Underwood puts out a fantastic product for this. It's a 158grain Hard Cast "Keith" bullet pushed to 1200fps... and will certainly punch thru a car door and keep on chugging with little to no deformity. I've also carried a similar load for my woods load when I couldn't risk "printing" with my "N" frame M29 on the trails in Highlands NC. Some of those people see the outline of a gun on your belt and start to tear up and take pics/call the authorities... even if you are an officer yourself in plain clothes... Anyways, back to the topic... they will work on heavy pelted 4 legged threats as well. You can get them at the link provided below.




38 Special +P 158 Grain Hard Cast Keith – Underwood Ammo


For around town we use Buffalo Bore's Hard Cast, Full Wad Cutters in standard pressure for mine and the wife's "J" frames. They are devastating on soft tissue.


Have you actually shot anything animate with those full wadcutter loads? Years ago, Maj. George Nonte, a famous gun writer, recommended full (std.) velocity wadcutters, but I've seen no more in print on them. Most firms discontined them decades ago.

If you've shot coyotes or even jackrabbits, I'd like to know how the round performs.

I suspect that at normal handgun ranges, the load is effective, and places no strain on J and K frame guns. It should be an excellent home defense round.

Beyond 50 yards, it has aerodynamic issues, but most shootings are well within that range.

Can you post some better pics of the cartridge? That'd be much appreciated.
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:11 AM
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We tested the Winchester .38 +p LSW-HP load that they local sheriffs office was issuing back in '91 or '92 and it would not shoot through the doors nor the tailgate of a wrecked Ford pickup that someone donated us parts of for testing against. We shot those, .45 acp 230 Federal Hyrda shock, and Remington .357 mag 125 SJHP. The .357 was the only one that reliably shot holes through everything with energy to spare.
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Old 08-23-2018, 12:09 PM
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Over the years, I've had the experience of shooting at a good many motor vehicles, mostly some in junk yards with no usable pieces left for sale, but also some that were occupied at the time. There are so many variables that nothing is consistently guaranteed with any handgun, shotgun, or rifles that were fired. Angles, movement, whatever is lurking behind the outer skin of the vehicle that can't be seen, etc all have negative affects on penetration of bullets. The distance involved between the shooter and the vehicle also makes a difference.

My conclusion is that most bullets, especially those in common use back in the day by LEO's, were very iffy as far as penetration inside the body of the vehicle is concerned, and that includes glass. Handgun ammo in particular was and is intended for use on soft targets, not vehicles! The only sure fire way I ever found to stop a vehicle was to be able to strike the radiator through the grill with a bullet or bullets which would result in eventual overheating of the motor and shutdown. I closely followed a sheriff deputy howl car that had been stolen for about 25 miles down the highway after the right front tire had been punctured by a close range round of 00 Buckshot from a 12 guage. That vehicle continued at about 80 mph for all those miles with no tire and very little of the steel wheel left intact on that right front tire. I crowded that vehicle to push it through an "S" curve in hopes of creating a crash to stop it. One of the young fellows in the deputy car held the deputy's 12 guage out the passenger window and fired it back at me. When the .30 caliber pellets hit and skidded off my windshield (without penetration or cracking the glass), I decided to quickly increase my following distance! That vehicle was shot and hit by a 12 guage with 00 buck three times, an M1 .30 caliber rifle twice, and three times by a .357 magnum revolver. Other than the flat tire, nothing occured other than making some noticeable marks on the exterior of the vehicle.

The only weapon I ever saw that would effectively regularly penetrate vehicles was a .50 caliber rifle/machine gun. Of course, there are other rounds that will do so, but not nearly as effectively. Shooting at and stopping most vehicles with the normal firearms that one might have at hand is pretty much an exercise in futility in my experience! But you never know for sure what is going to result, and a guy's gotta try something in these situations.
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:35 PM
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Shooting at and stopping most vehicles with the normal firearms that one might have at hand is pretty much an exercise in futility in my experience! But you never know for sure what is going to result, and a guy's gotta try something in these situations.
Some videos have recently been posted of police officers firing handguns and, in at least one case, a rifle through their own windshields during high speed pursuits. None of them appeared to accomplish anything except possibly blowing the earwax out of their ears and wasting precious ammunition.
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Old 08-24-2018, 06:01 AM
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Some videos have recently been posted of police officers firing handguns and, in at least one case, a rifle through their own windshields during high speed pursuits. None of them appeared to accomplish anything except possibly blowing the earwax out of their ears and wasting precious ammunition.

..I have seen those also and have never seen anything more insane in my entire life... It would be one thing to shoot at someone firing at you standing in front of the car... To be in a high speed chase through moving traffic and neighborhoods is as negligent as it comes....

Bob
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Old 08-24-2018, 08:37 AM
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This was a favorite topic within our department in the 60s and 70s. We were told to roll the window down to give us added protection. The Rangemaster had a film showing us that shooting at car doors and windshields repeatedly failed using our department's FBI 38 loads. My tactical plan after viewing that film was to shoot for the ankles or knees of a crouching suspect. I planned to put a follow-up shot in the melon if the prep fell to the ground with still some fight.

Thankfully, I never had to use that tactical plan against a suspect or hide behind a squad door in a shoot-out.
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