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Old 09-05-2018, 05:43 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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Default Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?

I almost shot up this box of .38 Spl today but then I started thinking someone may need it to go with a military issued Smith. If it has no collector value I will shoot it up down the road. Any thoughts would be appreciated.



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Old 09-05-2018, 05:59 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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I'M CERTAIN THAT IT WOULD HAVE SOME COLLECTOR VALUE.....

IMHO, YOU SHOULD NOT SHOOT IT. ONCE ITS GONE, ITS GONE.....

PERHAPS YOU COULD ADD YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS TO THE POST, AND INVITE INTERESTED PARTIES TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU.....

THAT WAY YOU WILL AVOID RUNNING AFOUL OF ANY FORUM RULES, WHILE KEEPING YOUR EXCHANGE PRIVATE.....
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Old 09-05-2018, 06:18 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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I agree with one eye joe. It would only be $20 or so worth of brand new ammo. And once it’s done it’s done. I think it would be collectible.
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Old 09-05-2018, 06:33 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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Shoot it. Lots of AF surplus around. I bought 20 boxes for a little over $100 from J&G Sales maybe 10 years ago. This lot is '90 headstamp. Just average ball. I have 5 or 6 boxes left, probably be gone before the end of next year. I'll shoot one box next outing so I can replace the "mix dump" box that packing tape can no longer save. Joe

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Old 09-05-2018, 07:00 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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I assume you do not know what you have there nor the other responders. PGU-12/B was a special .38 Special round loaded by Lake City AAP only during 1979-80 for use by the USAF in the USAF's S&W Model 15 revolvers. It was prompted by problems with the lower-powered M41 round, namely that some USAF troops were pulling M41 bullets and doubling the powder charge. That caused several revolver blow-ups. The PGU-12/B round was not only considerably more powerful (a 130 grain FMJ bullet having a MV of around 1150 ft/sec) vs the .38 Special M41 (a 130 grain bullet at a MV of about 950 ft/sec), but the bullet pull force was increased to over 130 pounds. The listed peak chamber pressure was around 25,000 psi. There were about 72 Million cartridges made at Lake City AAP, and this was the only handgun cartridge ever made there.

These cartridges are very scarce on the collector market, especially full boxes. No way would I advise you to shoot them up, as many cartridge collectors would love to have a full box. Most which were not used up (or stolen) were destroyed by the USAF after the M9 9mm pistol was adopted to replace the S&W Model 15 in the late 1980s.

Having said that, I am not sure that those in your box are actually Lake City PGU-12/B from the headstamp. The correct headstamps should be LC 79 or 80, not WCC 81. I would have to do some research to find out. I will check into whether any PGU-12/B ammunition was loaded outside Lake City for the USAF under contract by Olin. It may take a few days.

Last edited by DWalt; 09-05-2018 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 09-05-2018, 07:40 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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Default I just had a reason....

...to look up antique ammo collectors and saw quite a few. I'd suppose that one of them might be interested.
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Old 09-05-2018, 09:47 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
I assume you do not know what you have there nor the other responders. PGU-12/B was a special .38 Special round loaded by Lake City AAP only during 1979-80 for use by the USAF in the USAF's S&W Model 15 revolvers. It was prompted by problems with the lower-powered M41 round, namely that some USAF troops were pulling M41 bullets and doubling the powder charge. That caused several revolver blow-ups. The PGU-12/B round was not only considerably more powerful (a 130 grain FMJ bullet having a MV of around 1150 ft/sec) vs the .38 Special M41 (a 130 grain bullet at a MV of about 950 ft/sec), but the bullet pull force was increased to over 130 pounds. The listed peak chamber pressure was around 25,000 psi. There were about 72 Million cartridges made at Lake City AAP, and this was the only handgun cartridge ever made there.

These cartridges are very scarce on the collector market, especially full boxes. No way would I advise you to shoot them up, as many cartridge collectors would love to have a full box. Most which were not used up (or stolen) were destroyed by the USAF after the M9 9mm pistol was adopted to replace the S&W Model 15 in the late 1980s.

Having said that, I am not sure that those in your box are actually Lake City PGU-12/B from the headstamp. The correct headstamps should be LC 79 or 80, not WCC 81. I would have to do some research to find out. I will check into whether any PGU-12/B ammunition was loaded outside Lake City for the USAF under contract by Olin. It may take a few days.
The boxes do say WCC on them.
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Old 09-05-2018, 10:30 PM
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First box of PGU-12/B I’ve ever seen in 20 years of collecting. Can we get a pic of the bullet ? PGU-12’s have an unusual crimp.

Last edited by jpage; 09-05-2018 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 09-05-2018, 10:38 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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Ask and ye shall receive.
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Old 09-05-2018, 10:58 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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Hmmm. A 130 at 1150 - nearly a ballistic equal to the old 9mm Luger load of 124 at 1145. Certainly an unusual looking .38, too. Id enjoy hearing more about that configuration. Was it just to obtain the high bullet-pull?

Good thread!
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Old 09-05-2018, 11:07 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
I assume you do not know what you have there nor the other responders. PGU-12/B was a special .38 Special round loaded by Lake City AAP only during 1979-80 for use by the USAF in the USAF's S&W Model 15 revolvers. It was prompted by problems with the lower-powered M41 round, namely that some USAF troops were pulling M41 bullets and doubling the powder charge. That caused several revolver blow-ups. The PGU-12/B round was not only considerably more powerful (a 130 grain FMJ bullet having a MV of around 1150 ft/sec) vs the .38 Special M41 (a 130 grain bullet at a MV of about 950 ft/sec), but the bullet pull force was increased to over 130 pounds. The listed peak chamber pressure was around 25,000 psi. There were about 72 Million cartridges made at Lake City AAP, and this was the only handgun cartridge ever made there.

These cartridges are very scarce on the collector market, especially full boxes. No way would I advise you to shoot them up, as many cartridge collectors would love to have a full box. Most which were not used up (or stolen) were destroyed by the USAF after the M9 9mm pistol was adopted to replace the S&W Model 15 in the late 1980s.

Having said that, I am not sure that those in your box are actually Lake City PGU-12/B from the headstamp. The correct headstamps should be LC 79 or 80, not WCC 81. I would have to do some research to find out. I will check into whether any PGU-12/B ammunition was loaded outside Lake City for the USAF under contract by Olin. It may take a few days.
THANKS FOR ANOTHER MOST INFORMATIVE POST DWalt.......

I MAKE IT A POINT TO READ YOUR POSTS WHEN I SEE THEM, AND I NEVER FAIL TO LEARN SOMETHING........

I MUST STAND BY MY OPINION THAT SHOOTING OFF THIS BOX OF VINTAGE AMMO, WOULD BE THE WRONG THING TO DO--EVEN IF IT DOES NOT TURN OUT TO BE LC PGU-12/B.......
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Old 09-05-2018, 11:35 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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The Box is labeled WCC81 PGU-12/B and the cartridge cases are headstamp WCC 81

The bullet is deeply seated as is PGU-12/B


Therefore, it must be WCC 81 PGU-12/B





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Old 09-06-2018, 01:49 AM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpage View Post
First box of PGU-12/B I’ve ever seen in 20 years of collecting. Can we get a pic of the bullet ? PGU-12’s have an unusual crimp.
Both the rounds and the box are quite unusual. I have seen only one other box and it was from Lake City. A full box sure would make a great (and possibly singular) companion piece for anyone owning one of the USAF-marked Model 15s.

I have found out that Olin did indeed make some runs of PGU .38 Special for the USAF after the Lake City production ended and there were at least two different Olin box labels. It's possible that more details may follow if I find any additional information. The picture immediately above definitely shows it is PGU .38 Special. Note that the bullets are seated deeply with the case mouth crimped over the nose. That is how the bullet pull was increased enough to make the bullet nearly impossible to remove by hand. My original statement about the reason for making the bullets pull-proof is an absolute fact. I was not trying to pull anyone's leg.

Last edited by DWalt; 09-06-2018 at 02:10 AM.
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:23 AM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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Over the years you will pick up old boxes of ammo. They make great displays for shop or man cave. Don't shoot them.
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Old 09-22-2018, 08:20 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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I'm not a collector or an expert in old ammo but I don't think I would shoot that ammo. It sounds like it might be a special ammo.
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Old 10-05-2018, 08:10 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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Has anyone ever chronoed these from a 4" or 6" revolver?
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Old 10-05-2018, 08:29 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by one eye joe View Post
I'M CERTAIN THAT IT WOULD HAVE SOME COLLECTOR VALUE.....

IMHO, YOU SHOULD NOT SHOOT IT. ONCE ITS GONE, ITS GONE.....

PERHAPS YOU COULD ADD YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS TO THE POST, AND INVITE INTERESTED PARTIES TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU.....

THAT WAY YOU WILL AVOID RUNNING AFOUL OF ANY FORUM RULES, WHILE KEEPING YOUR EXCHANGE PRIVATE.....
I would totally agree with this post - except for the SCREAMING!!!
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Old 10-05-2018, 09:21 PM
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Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector? Military .38 Spl. Shoot it or sell it to a collector?  
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I know very little about collecting ammo. I have seen lots of 'collectible' ammo at gun shows over the years and have learned one thing---if you want to buy it, it is worth a fortune; if you want to sell it, it is worth very little. As a result any old ammo that I have ever gotten I have just shot and enjoyed rather than letting it accumulate in my gunspace.
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