I almost shot up this box of .38 Spl today but then I started thinking someone may need it to go with a military issued Smith. If it has no collector value I will shoot it up down the road. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

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Jim
SWCA #2246

I'M CERTAIN THAT IT WOULD HAVE SOME COLLECTOR VALUE.....

IMHO, YOU SHOULD NOT SHOOT IT. ONCE ITS GONE, ITS GONE.....

PERHAPS YOU COULD ADD YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS TO THE POST, AND INVITE INTERESTED PARTIES TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU.....

THAT WAY YOU WILL AVOID RUNNING AFOUL OF ANY FORUM RULES, WHILE KEEPING YOUR EXCHANGE PRIVATE.....

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I agree with one eye joe. It would only be $20 or so worth of brand new ammo. And once it’s done it’s done. I think it would be collectible.

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No gold. Only lead. Bobby

Shoot it. Lots of AF surplus around. I bought 20 boxes for a little over $100 from J&G Sales maybe 10 years ago. This lot is '90 headstamp. Just average ball. I have 5 or 6 boxes left, probably be gone before the end of next year. I'll shoot one box next outing so I can replace the "mix dump" box that packing tape can no longer save. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

I assume you do not know what you have there nor the other responders. PGU-12/B was a special .38 Special round loaded by Lake City AAP only during 1979-80 for use by the USAF in the USAF's S&W Model 15 revolvers. It was prompted by problems with the lower-powered M41 round, namely that some USAF troops were pulling M41 bullets and doubling the powder charge. That caused several revolver blow-ups. The PGU-12/B round was not only considerably more powerful (a 130 grain FMJ bullet having a MV of around 1150 ft/sec) vs the .38 Special M41 (a 130 grain bullet at a MV of about 950 ft/sec), but the bullet pull force was increased to over 130 pounds. The listed peak chamber pressure was around 25,000 psi. There were about 72 Million cartridges made at Lake City AAP, and this was the only handgun cartridge ever made there.

These cartridges are very scarce on the collector market, especially full boxes. No way would I advise you to shoot them up, as many cartridge collectors would love to have a full box. Most which were not used up (or stolen) were destroyed by the USAF after the M9 9mm pistol was adopted to replace the S&W Model 15 in the late 1980s.

Having said that, I am not sure that those in your box are actually Lake City PGU-12/B from the headstamp. The correct headstamps should be LC 79 or 80, not WCC 81. I would have to do some research to find out. I will check into whether any PGU-12/B ammunition was loaded outside Lake City for the USAF under contract by Olin. It may take a few days.

...to look up antique ammo collectors and saw quite a few. I'd suppose that one of them might be interested.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The boxes do say WCC on them.

First box of PGU-12/B I’ve ever seen in 20 years of collecting. Can we get a pic of the bullet ? PGU-12’s have an unusual crimp.

Ask and ye shall receive.

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Jim
SWCA #2246

Hmmm. A 130 at 1150 - nearly a ballistic equal to the old 9mm Luger load of 124 at 1145. Certainly an unusual looking .38, too. I’d enjoy hearing more about that configuration. Was it just to obtain the high bullet-pull?

Good thread!

THANKS FOR ANOTHER MOST INFORMATIVE POST DWalt.......

I MAKE IT A POINT TO READ YOUR POSTS WHEN I SEE THEM, AND I NEVER FAIL TO LEARN SOMETHING........

I MUST STAND BY MY OPINION THAT SHOOTING OFF THIS BOX OF VINTAGE AMMO, WOULD BE THE WRONG THING TO DO--EVEN IF IT DOES NOT TURN OUT TO BE LC PGU-12/B.......

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

The Box is labeled WCC81 PGU-12/B and the cartridge cases are headstamp WCC 81

The bullet is deeply seated as is PGU-12/B

Therefore, it must be WCC 81 PGU-12/B

Both the rounds and the box are quite unusual. I have seen only one other box and it was from Lake City. A full box sure would make a great (and possibly singular) companion piece for anyone owning one of the USAF-marked Model 15s.

I have found out that Olin did indeed make some runs of PGU .38 Special for the USAF after the Lake City production ended and there were at least two different Olin box labels. It's possible that more details may follow if I find any additional information. The picture immediately above definitely shows it is PGU .38 Special. Note that the bullets are seated deeply with the case mouth crimped over the nose. That is how the bullet pull was increased enough to make the bullet nearly impossible to remove by hand. My original statement about the reason for making the bullets pull-proof is an absolute fact. I was not trying to pull anyone's leg.

Over the years you will pick up old boxes of ammo. They make great displays for shop or man cave. Don't shoot them.

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Bob P.

I'm not a collector or an expert in old ammo but I don't think I would shoot that ammo. It sounds like it might be a special ammo.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Has anyone ever chronoed these from a 4" or 6" revolver?

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

I would totally agree with this post - except for the SCREAMING!!!

I know very little about collecting ammo. I have seen lots of 'collectible' ammo at gun shows over the years and have learned one thing---if you want to buy it, it is worth a fortune; if you want to sell it, it is worth very little. As a result any old ammo that I have ever gotten I have just shot and enjoyed rather than letting it accumulate in my gunspace.

With few exceptions, most old ammunition in common calibers is worth about the same as new ammunition of the same caliber, so you may as well shoot it. There are just not all that many ammunition collectors willing to pay much for ammo unless it is fairly old (say, pre-WWII), in full boxes, and the boxes themselves are in very high condition, not stained, faded, or torn. There are also some single rounds in obsolete calibers, especially early military rarities, which are easily sold. Full boxes of very early metallic cartridges from the mid-19th century can bring very good money because they are so rare.

I have several thousand specimen rounds of about every caliber and maker (mainly US but some European) that most have never heard of. Only a few of them are worth more than several dollars each, but I do have a small number that I could probably sell for somewhat over $100 each as they are extreme rarities. I do not have more than several dozen full boxes from pre-WWII which could legitimately be called collector grade.

Those who have had interaction with one eye joe know that he has a vision situation which requires the caps in his messages.
We on the forum suspend normal email protocols in deference to his condition.

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I'm with her

Is it worth an additional $15 or so to the buyer, is it worth your time, to get involved with shipping a single box via UPS ORM-D?
D

I would put it on the garage shelf where I store so many of my wonderful, unusual collectibles.
I have shot thousands of the "regular" GI 38s.
Don't actually recall ever seeing any of these.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I'd put the PGUs in the "No Shootum" category. You just do not see them today. I don't think I mentioned earlier that I was present at the destruction of a full case of those back in the early 1990s at Dyess AFB. Too bad I was unable to steal any of them.