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Old 09-10-2018, 04:01 PM
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I very much like my M69 and have found in carries well in an AIWB holster. I also have adequate former Dept issue 44 Mag ammo, such as I used to carry in my 629 on duty.

However, I figured that in the outside chance I find myself in court after a shooting incident it would probably be better if the fired round(s) didn't have 44 Mag on the headstamp. I went by the LGS (Lotus) and looked at the 44 SPL they had. When roughly guesstimating energy, none of the rounds, out of the 2.75" barrel were surpassing or really equaling what I'd get out of my small 1911s (or XDs), especially if using +P 45ACP.

Anyone know of a factory 44Spl +P load that would get me up past 45ACP energy wise? Otherwise, what's the point? I'm not recoil sensitive. I guess I'm just dreaming here.
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Old 09-10-2018, 04:12 PM
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Buffalo Bore Ammunition 44 Special 200 Grain Hard Cast Lead Wadcutter Anti-Personnel 1000 FPS, 444 Foot Pounds puts it up there with Hornady Critical Duty Ammunition 45 ACP +P 220 Grain 975 FPS 464 Foot Pounds for example
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Old 09-10-2018, 04:20 PM
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IMHO---IT IS INCONSEQUENTIAL WHAT CALIBER YOU USE IN A SHOOTING INCIDENT.......

THE QUESTION IS WAS THE SHOOTING JUSTIFIED, ACCORDING TO THE LAWS IN THE JURISDICTION WHERE IT OCCURRED......

AN UNLAWFUL SHOOTING WITH A .44 MAGNUM, WOULD BE NO LESS UNLAWFUL, IF A .22 LR HAD BEEN USED......
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Old 09-10-2018, 04:48 PM
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Buffalo Bore, Underwood, and Double Tap seem to be the kings of the "hot" factory ammo market. I too did a similar search recently for my 3" 624 and none break that 500 ft-lbs barrier from that barrel length.

I'm kind of with one eye joe. If it came to it, the local prosecutor could simply say you used a .44 Magnum handgun...which, while disingenuous is not incorrect.
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Old 09-10-2018, 05:16 PM
Tyree1867 Tyree1867 is offline
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I like, buy & shoot Buffalo Bore products but I have to say I'd be a lot happier if some of their boxes weren't labelled with "anti-personnel". What's wrong with just using self defense?
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Old 09-10-2018, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyree1867 View Post
I like, buy & shoot Buffalo Bore products but I have to say I'd be a lot happier if some of their boxes weren't labelled with "anti-personnel". What's wrong with just using self defense?
I AGREE Tyree, THE LESS INFLAMMATORY AND/OR AGGRESSIVE APPEARING THE LABEL IS, THE BETTER OFF WE ALL WILL BE---STARTING WITH THE MANUFACTURER, ON DOWN TO THE END USER.....

IMHO---THE FACT THAT THE AMMO IS MANUFACTURED FOR SELF DEFENSE, SHOULD BE PROMINENTLY DISPLAYED ON THE BOX.....
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Old 09-10-2018, 07:23 PM
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OP, I carry one or the other of these babies pictured below; every single day, either most of the day or at some point in the day.. For around the neighborhood Gold Dot or Underwood's 200 grain Gold Dot loads are more than adequate for 2 legged A-holes.. Anything hotter is overkill unless you need medium barrier penetration.

For when at the family mountain house in the Nantahala National Forrest the universal choice is absolutely Underwoods 255 grain "Keith" Hard Casts in .44Special @ 1,000fps. They will completely pass thru a 400lb Black Bear shoulder-blade thru shoulder-blade, pelt, fat, and all.. That style of meplate hardcast of 65+% of the original diameter is a far better destroyer of soft, connective, and hard/bone tissue than any Hollow Point I've ever used.

I've used their 200grain Hard Cast Full Wad-Cutters too and they are very destructive as an almost full meplate pill loaded to 1,000fps as well. The good thing OP, is you have a pretty decent range of options; "in the come-back kid caliber" known as the .44Special. I never thought I would ever find a caliber I liked more than .45ACP but in the last 2 years I have and I'm just now starting to load for both calibers and am gearing up to reload for .44Magnum with some of "Matts-Bullets".. The .44Special/Magnum is the most versatile caliber handgun I know of. YMMV.
Pic of said "babies".


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Old 09-10-2018, 09:05 PM
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^^^^Excellent, Excellent post. I love that Underwood HC wadcutter load as well. Very easy to shoot and accurate.
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Old 09-10-2018, 09:43 PM
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I went to the Underwood site. I saw the listed velocities but didn't see anywhere what barrel length they were using to obtain those velocities.

It would be nice to have a load that will expand at velocities realistic out of 2.75". I don't have an interest in FBI barrier penetration nor do I feel the need for the deep penetration they require. I'm more interested in rapid expansion but of course not surface explosion resulting in no penetration, were that even possible at velocities achievable from 2.75".
My desires may be unrealistic from current factory loadings.
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Old 09-10-2018, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post
I went to the Underwood site. I saw the listed velocities but didn't see anywhere what barrel length they were using to obtain those velocities.

It would be nice to have a load that will expand at velocities realistic out of 2.75". I don't have an interest in FBI barrier penetration nor do I feel the need for the deep penetration they require. I'm more interested in rapid expansion but of course not surface explosion resulting in no penetration, were that even possible at velocities achievable from 2.75".
My desires may be unrealistic from current factory loadings.
You want what you want.. I get it. But laws of diminishing returns always apply. You can either get penetration or expansion but rarely both without a heavy price paid in one of the other departments.

Me, I don't give a flying funk about expansion anymore! I doubt I ever will again. A "Keith" style bullet in soft lead for 2 legged threads with a 65-70% Meplate relative to over all diameter or a hard cast Keith for thick pelted 4 legged threats; both do very significant tissue damage/disruption enough to kill.

As for Underwood's velocity claims; they use real world guns just like Buffalo Bore does. If they say it runs 1,000fps you can expect 90+% of that velocity from a 2.5 to 3.5" barrel. They aren't using 8" anything to get those velocities as most won't "Woods-Carry" anything that heavy or long; nor will I.

Rolling your own once you've decided upon the proper projectile and playing with the velocities in different media will likely give you what you are after. But it's going to be a lot of trial and error and I wish you the best of luck. Post pics and data if you decide to got that route! Should be a fun project for sure!

Last edited by HamHands; 09-10-2018 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 09-10-2018, 10:47 PM
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Yeah, I could roll my own but I want some PC sounding factory load for personal defense carry. I'd bet the 200GR Gold Dot special would be good cranked up another 125-150fps or even a tad more.
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:06 PM
ddixie884 ddixie884 is offline
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The Gold Dot 200gr .44Mag is downloaded to a little over 1,000fps.........
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:18 PM
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Probably near perfect if stuffed in a special case. Oh well!
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:24 AM
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Delete for redundancy.

Last edited by HamHands; 09-11-2018 at 07:21 AM. Reason: Redundant..
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:26 AM
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The prosecutor will run with what ever ball you hand him. If it was a 12 gauge shotgun, it wouldn't matter much which load it was. You used a "44 caliber revolver-like Dirty Harry."
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
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The prosecutor will run with what ever ball you hand him. If it was a 12 gauge shotgun, it wouldn't matter much which load it was. You used a "44 caliber revolver-like Dirty Harry."
If I lived in a stupid political climate where the powers to be wish to make all good people "professional victims..", I certainly would consider the Dirty Harry Callahan angle.

Thankfully, I'm in a free state where common sense is the going concern.
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Old 09-15-2018, 03:10 AM
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My musings on the subject of EDC ammo for my M69/2.75" can be found here, so I won't repeat them in this thread. The end result of my brief test was that I'm carrying the Hornady Critical Defense .44Spl 165gr FTX. It's not a hot .44 Spl, but I think it's going to get the job done.

If you're definitely sold on a hot .44Spl load, you should probably give serious consideration to the Speer Short Barrel 200gr Gold Dot .44 Mag. While it's got ".44 Mag" on the head casing, it's effectively a hot loaded .44 Spl.
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Old 09-15-2018, 06:16 AM
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Another vote for the Speer .44 Magnum 200 grain Gold Dot HP Short Barrel load... The last .44 I had was a 629-5 Mountain Gun and it was the perfect self-defense round for the gun... Low recoil and lots of expansion. The Speer reloding manual has a section on using this bullet for low recoil .44 Magnum rounds. I used 10.0 grains of Winchester 231 with either a GD HP or the discontinued Berry's plated 200 grain bullet for practice loads.

A friend who bought a Model 21 TR tried most available .44 Special rounds into water...none reliably expanded every time. He ended up selling that gun when he found the rare 629 PC 3" fixed sight gun. He tried the Short Barrel load and that little extra velocity had that bullet expanding every time.

And it's not going to make any difference what is in your gun...use what is going to best keep you alive....

Bob

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Old 09-15-2018, 07:46 AM
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I carry my reloads. Nothing like handcrafted ammunition. But I live in an area where common sense still pretty much rules. Either it was justified or not but the choice of ammunition will not be a factor.
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Old 09-15-2018, 09:39 AM
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In my M69,4" I am carrying Sig Sauer V-Crown 200gr.JHP in 44Spl. The box says MV-700 and ME-218.I have only fired 10 rds.,but it is accurate and recoil is okay.
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Old 09-15-2018, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amazingflapjack View Post
The prosecutor will run with what ever ball you hand him. If it was a 12 gauge shotgun, it wouldn't matter much which load it was. You used a "44 caliber revolver-like Dirty Harry."
A prosecutor comparing a defendant to Dirty Harry and his .44 in front of a jury might have been a devastating tactic in the 1970's and 1980's but, based on the composition of the jury pool I served with in 2014, I'd guess that only a tiny minority of them knew of Dirty Harry. If you've got a bunch of under 40 jurors, it'd be a pretty safe bet that they won't even have a clue about Harry and the .44 Magnum.
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Old 09-15-2018, 10:32 PM
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To me, the real question is whether the .44 Magnum is too powerful to let you practice effectively.

In Florida I do not believe the prosecutor is going to make a decision on whether to prosecute based on what type of ammo you were packing.

On the long odds that you get into a shooting incident, survive, get prosecuted, and go all the way to a jury trial, I would expect that at least one juror out of 12 is not going to care that you were packing .44 Magnum and vote to acquit if you otherwise deserve.
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:14 AM
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I chrono'd the Underwood 200gr Gold Dots and they averaged 1056 fps from my 3" M29.

I shot one round thru my 2" aluminum frame Taurus 445, and it measured 1017 fps.

It's hot stuff; that's comparable to what Speer claims for its 200 grain Gold Dot HP Short Barrel load.

Conversely, I've had problems igniting the super hard primers Buffalo Bore uses so I'm done with it.

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Old 09-22-2018, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
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I chrono'd the Underwood 200gr Gold Dots and they averaged 1056 fps from my 3" M29.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. mordo View Post

I shot one round thru my 2" aluminum frame Taurus 445, and it measured 1017 fps.

It's hot stuff; that's comparable to what Speer claims for its 200 grain Gold Dot HP Short Barrel load.

Conversely, I've had problems igniting the super hard primers Buffalo Bore uses so I'm done with it.
That is about 100fps more than Underwood advertises. Awesome news! That hits harder than 230 grain .45ACP standard loads hit for sure! Good new and thanks for that Doc!

As to Buffalo Bore's hard primers. I've only had once incident and it was due to my strain screw backing out a full turn. But maybe I should keep a better eye on their primers in the future!
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Old 09-22-2018, 06:19 AM
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I’m a big .44 Spl fan and I reload for it fairly often but on the rare occasion I ccw a .44 Spl revolver (usually a Charter Arms), I like Winchester Silvertip 200-gr JHP. Not the easiest to find but it’s out there.
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Old 09-22-2018, 08:27 AM
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Im a big .44 Spl fan and I reload for it fairly often but on the rare occasion I ccw a .44 Spl revolver (usually a Charter Arms), I like Winchester Silvertip 200-gr JHP. Not the easiest to find but its out there.
SGAmmo had a bunch last I checked a week or so ago.
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