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Old 09-15-2018, 01:58 PM
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Cool Old .222 Remington Ammo

Here are a few images of some Remington .222 Reload ammo dating back to ~1955-1959, that I have from when my father was reloading our (now mine) Remington 722 rifle. The Remington box itself states that they are "empty primed shells" from Remington.

Five or six years ago I took the rifle to the range and actually fired ~10rd of this old ammo at a 200yd target. I had not fired this .222 rifle in almost 50yr and YES I feel guilty about that

That said, I managed to get groupings of ~2-3in, not bad for having a 50yr resp-id from this gun...

Anyway, this Remington 722 has an old "original" Weaver K 10, Series 60 scope on it that my father bought in 1954. If you recall anything about this scope, you will know that the cross hairs actually float, so if you move your head while looking through the scope you will see the cross hairs move/point differently.
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Old .222 Remington Ammo-222-box1-jpg   Old .222 Remington Ammo-222-box2-jpg   Old .222 Remington Ammo-20180915_115742-jpg   Old .222 Remington Ammo-20180915_120009-jpg  
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Old 09-15-2018, 02:00 PM
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Exclamation 1954 Price List

Here is a Price List from 1954, on which my father indicated what size of dot he wanted in the above Weaver K 10 scope.
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Old 09-15-2018, 02:30 PM
Ivan the Butcher Ivan the Butcher is online now
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Those scopes were not cheap! In 1958 a Columbus, Ohio, brand new police patrolman, made $85 per month!, which was enough to support a wife, 2 daughters (4&2)and a car and house payment!

$47 and $65 dollars was a lot more expensive than a Leupold VxIII 6.5-20 at $600 out the door in 2005!

I was sorting old reloading stuff I picked up at a yard sale and found 2 unopened boxes of Sisk, 50 grain Lovell bullets from that timeframe.(1950's) that's to good stuff from back then, and pretty darn good by today's standards of premium bullets!

Ivan
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Old 09-15-2018, 04:32 PM
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"If you recall anything about this scope, you will know that the cross hairs actually float, so if you move your head while looking through the scope you will see the cross hairs move/point differently."

Typical for higher magnification scopes not having a parallax adjustment on the objective lens. Not so much of a problem with scopes having a magnification below 6X.

I found the 1954 Lee price list interesting. Back then the K3 was priced at $45 and the K4 at $52.50. I bought one of each earlier this year, both in "gently used" condition. The K4 was still in its original box, with no signs of use, and I paid $10 for it. I paid $20 for the K3, no box. The K3 is now on my Remington 550-1 .22, the K4 is on my Remington Nylon 10C. Only complaint I have is fuzziness around the sight picture periphery on both. No perceptible parallax on either one. I have a Weaver K6 mounted on a Remington 700, and I do have to be careful about parallax with it.

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Old 09-15-2018, 04:48 PM
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I no longer have a K10, but had one with an adjustable objective for parallax correction. Pretty good scope, even by today's standards. Have no idea when it was made, but I'd guess the '60s.

Regarding old .222 brass... I was given several hundred rounds a few years ago, some of it may have been unfired, but all of it, Winchester and Remington, was probably from the '60s. Some of the Winchester brass was at least ten percent lighter in weigh than the newest Winchester brass I have which is probably ten years old. This is a significant amount and required a powder charge adjustment (upwards) in the lighter case to get the same velocity as brass I was already using.

The old Remington brass was also lighter, but the discrepancy wasn't nearly as great as with the Winchester cases. Still worth checking out if you run across older brass.
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Old 09-15-2018, 05:06 PM
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Question Hairy Old Rifle Rounds

Ivan the Butcher,
You bet. I just ran an inflation calculator and came up with $628.02 for the K 10 scope! Shoot... I would probably knee-jerk paying that kind of $$$ today, and seriously "think" about whether I really, really really needed it...

And did you notice the load?! My father used a load of 21gr of IMR4198. Hodgdon lists/posts 19.3gr 3,152fps 49,000 PSI as the max load for this combination! This was a rather hot load then as well as now. A few of the reloads had their necks crack at the tapered crimp, but that did not seem to be an issue when I discharged them.

I only wish I had had the forethought to have saved the brass from that day, since it had rather unique Remington markings. FWIW, I had not thought about reloading at the time and did not even think of such things...

FWIW, I cannot tell if these reloads are "virgin" reloads with the then new Remington "Empty Primed Shells" or a repeat reload later.
The best that I recall is that my father was NOT an avid reloader and had help/assistance/urging from a more experienced reloader at the time. If that is/was the case, then I would surmise that the reloads pictured below, are "new" reloads using the then new Remington empty primed shells. Very hard to tell some 65yr later with all the lead hair and discolored brass... just saying.




V___Below___V you may be able to make out a crimp area crack in the brass:
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Old 09-15-2018, 06:14 PM
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I don't know how many are familiar with the above-mentioned Sisk bullets, but Ralph Sisk made these by hand in his shop in Iowa Park, TX. None of his equipment was mechanized. I don't recall when he went out of business, probably in the early '70s. These bullets had quite a reputation for accuracy. As I recall, Sisk had a variety of varmint bullets in the '40s, 50s, and '60s that few others makers offered. My dates may be a bit off...
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Old 09-15-2018, 08:45 PM
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I have the identical rig that was a uncle of mines. It has a Weaver K10 on it. I've had it 40yrs and put K10
on it to replace a Bushnell. I have old Win ammo still
in the boxes, he didn't load. This 722 was new in 56
or 57. I was just a kid and was with him and my dad
when he traded in a Marlin 219 Zipper on it. I didn't
like the deal, but was told to be quiet. Old .222 Remington Ammo-img_0799-jpg


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Old 09-18-2018, 12:59 AM
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I don't know how many are familiar with the above-mentioned Sisk bullets, but Ralph Sisk made these by hand in his shop in Iowa Park, TX.

I have picked up several boxes of old Sisk .22 bullets over the years, may still have some. My experience with using them in a .223 was that they didn't outshoot anyone else's bullets. Iowa Park TX is a smallish residential suburb north of Wichita Falls TX, northwest of Dallas near the Red River. I used to know the Mayor of Iowa Park.

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Old 09-18-2018, 08:52 AM
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Know all about Iowa Park. It is the halfway point to go see my grandchildren (and their parents).

From a cool point of view, the, Zipper for a .222 was not a good move. From a practical point of view , good trade.

Jack
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:05 AM
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Interesting and informative thread. My favorite varmint rifle is an old model 722 Remington in .222 ( triple-deuce). I still shoot several hundred rounds each year at Prairie Dogs, Coyotes, etc.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddy bear View Post
Know all about Iowa Park. It is the halfway point to go see my grandchildren (and their parents).

From a cool point of view, the, Zipper for a .222 was not a good move. From a practical point of view , good trade.

Jack
You are probably right on Zipper/ 222 trade for practical. It wasn't a even trade, there was cash boot on the new 722.
The Zipper wasn't that old either. When you are 6 or 7 years
old in the 50s a lever action was a lot more interesting than a
bolt gun, due to TV westerns. Today a Marlin zipper is worth a
lot more than a 722 Rem.
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Old 09-18-2018, 11:00 AM
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I've had several .219 Zippers over many years, but never a Marlin. In a strong action, the .219 will overshadow the .223, but dealing with several form dies and the work involved to make the brass, including annealing, is far more trouble than it's worth. All my .219s are gone and I miss none of them.

As for Remington 722s in .222, I've had one for some time along with three Sakos from the '50 and '60s. All the rifles shoot very well. Though I've never done a side-by-side comparison, I suspect the 722 may be the most accurate. I've tried a variety of bullets and powders in the .222. Some years ago, I settled on the 50 grain Sierra Blitz and Reloder 7 powder as the best combination for all my .222s.
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Old 09-18-2018, 11:38 AM
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There is no doubt 222 killed the Zipper, the same way the 243
killed the 257 and 22/250 killed the 220. Now it's the 223 that
is killing the 222.
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Old 09-18-2018, 11:48 AM
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My early 722 in 222 is probably the most accurate rifle(factory) I have ever had. It has had 2000 rounds or thereabouts through it since I have had it. How many before I don't know. and it is just a wow shooter...even for me. I still load 4198 and Reloader 7 in it...40 gr Noslers with the 4198 and H322 and 50 gr Hornady SXs with RL7. Bought 3 boxes of them at the gunshow on Sunday for 5 bucks a box. Had a K-10 AO on it till about 4 years ago and changed to a Burris 6 -18 cause my sight has deteriorated a bit over the years. Not too long ago I also acquired a 722 in 222 Rem Mag. Looks about unfired. Going to sell the Kimber Varminter in 22-250 cause the Mag comes close 'nuff velocity wise to not need the larger cartridge. Coyotes under 300 yds are kind of a chip shot for either round(standing shots LOL). I also consider the 222 mag a better round than the 223 and luckily I have almost 4000 new cases to load
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Old 09-18-2018, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HorizontalMike View Post
Ivan the Butcher,
You bet. I just ran an inflation calculator and came up with $628.02 for the K 10 scope! Shoot... I would probably knee-jerk paying that kind of $$$ today, and seriously "think" about whether I really, really really needed it...

And did you notice the load?! My father used a load of 21gr of IMR4198. Hodgdon lists/posts 19.3gr 3,152fps 49,000 PSI as the max load for this combination! This was a rather hot load then as well as now. A few of the reloads had their necks crack at the tapered crimp, but that did not seem to be an issue when I discharged them.

I only wish I had had the forethought to have saved the brass from that day, since it had rather unique Remington markings. FWIW, I had not thought about reloading at the time and did not even think of such things...

FWIW, I cannot tell if these reloads are "virgin" reloads with the then new Remington "Empty Primed Shells" or a repeat reload later.
The best that I recall is that my father was NOT an avid reloader and had help/assistance/urging from a more experienced reloader at the time. If that is/was the case, then I would surmise that the reloads pictured below, are "new" reloads using the then new Remington empty primed shells. Very hard to tell some 65yr later with all the lead hair and discolored brass... just saying.




V___Below___V you may be able to make out a crimp area crack in the brass:

As a reloader myself I would say those cases had been fired and reloaded before. Certain signs such as the black ring at the junction of shoulder and neck are usually indicators of powder gas from firing. Case tumblers were not as common years ago and most of the older fellows I knew usually just wiped their cases off when reloading them. If they got really dirty they might use a dip in a chemical cleaner (still have part of a bottle of concentrate that came with some reloading gear an old fellow gave me years ago when he gave up loading his own) to get the cases cleaner. I suspect your dad put a few rounds downrange with those cases years ago.

Interestingly a few years ago I came across a few boxes of old factory primed brass in a few different calibers (leftovers from an old gun store that had closed years ago). There were a couple of those same style 222 boxes you showed earlier in the batch. Oddly the 222's had an odd copper colored primer, don't know if that was standard for that caliber in primed brass or if it was just a peculiarity of that particular lot. They didn't get much interest at a couple collector shows so I ended up selling them to a friend who loaded 222 and he used them, said they shot fine with his favorite load of 4198 powder.
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Old 09-18-2018, 01:54 PM
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Those odd copper colored primers were the new(improved) Remington 7 1/2 primers. The target shooters of the day liked those new(about 1957?) primers Supposedly the Rem 6 1/2 SR primers were not adequate for the 222....which surprisingly was not a really hot round...but the 6 1/2 was used and made for 22H 32-20 25-20 and 218 Bee ammo. Usually pretty low pressured compared to the 222. I too have a box of those Remington primed cases on my loading bench. The box is hand marked 1958 inside the end flap
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:26 PM
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A rifle for any cartridge can be brought to Target class gun if you
are willing to spend the money. There seem to be cartridges that
are " born" accurate. The 222 is one of them. I've owned many
and even the utility grade Savage 340 series shot very respectful
groups. The only reason 222 is taking a back seat to the 223 is
the popularity of the AR and para military type bolt guns. It's not
because the 223 is a better cartridge.
I have always had several rifles at hand and have never been one
to try to crank a rifle up to the level of the next most powerful
cartridge in the same caliber. It made more sense to me just to
buy another rifle. In 222s and 223s, I load 55gr bullets. I have
been using BCL-2 for over 50yrs in 222s. In 223 when it first
came out I had 5.56 military brass. I found because of case
thickness of GI brass, IMR-4198 would fill the case to the brim
with the standard velocity GI load of 3250fps/ 55g bullet. You
could tap it down but it was a PIA so I use BCL-2 in 223 also.
I did experiment with Sierra Golden Match in 52g hp & 53g but
there was no difference in accuracy and a big difference when it
came to expansion.

I've always felt that before you go nuts on the real technical
things in reloading you have to have a rifle capable of making
use of them. Not to long ago I bought some Sierra .224 bullets
off a guy that has a H&R Handi-Rifle in 223. It was one box and
he told me he had to be honest they were seconds. When I ask
what did he mean "seconds"? Seems he was into weighing the
Sierra bullets on a Lee beam scale and he was culling out the
ones that weren't perfect. I will guarantee you that Sierra has a
much more accurate scale for tolerance than you can read on a
Lee scale. I told him I would buy all his seconds $5 a box. I
also told him he should consider weighing his brass, I can always
use his "seconds" of brass also.
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