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Old 10-02-2018, 01:29 PM
Flyingfool Flyingfool is offline
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Default Win train & defend ammo 38 spl

I have looked at paper results and it appears that Win train and defend 38 spl might be a decent option.

I was wondering if anyone here has ised this ammo and your thoughts on it.

My wife has a 642 and my daughter has an LCR.

Win advertising says that these are reduced recoil loads and the matched pair are designed to have identical recoil and point of impact performance. Which would seem to be a decent match to both the light snubbies (642 & LCR).

Paper ballistics and penetration with snubbie (2”) seems to be pretty good. 800 fps with 13” penetration and 0.59” expansion into gel.

So is this a good ammo or what?
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:45 AM
Flyingfool Flyingfool is offline
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Really, has no one ever tried this ammo in a Jframe snubbie?
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:10 AM
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It has the lowest velocity of all 3 Winchester loads that use the exact same bullet,Train/PDX1/Ranger so it probably has the lowest recoil. Check out the comparison here.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...istics-test/8/
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Old 10-03-2018, 04:52 PM
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What I am hoping for is folks to report in who have, or are actively using this ammo Combination.

My wife and daughter will never be high volume shooters. But having a load they can manage with recoil and be similar if not identical and be a reliable SD round will help them.

This combo seems like a good choice. But dont know if there is any experience out there especially confidence for SD in the round.
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Old 10-03-2018, 06:11 PM
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I bought a case of the 130 gr "Winchester Ranger Bonded +P". I've shot a box and a half through a 4" 15-3 and a 640. It's about as "full power" as one can get from the Win-Rem-Fed cos, low recoil and flash, reliable and the bullet cavity looks well engineered. I can't speak about "stopping power" as I hope to finish this life without testing it. I'm sure "Train and Defend" loadings are similar. Joe
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Last edited by pharmer; 10-03-2018 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:37 PM
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It's definitely good ammo, I've tested probly 200rds of different calibers with no issues.

However, I tested some from a M36 and got very slow speeds, as I recall 750fps was around the average.

Personally, at that speed, I'd rather have a full wadcutter to ensure penetration, which will also reduce recoil.

38 Special 150 Grain Lead Wadcutter – Underwood Ammo
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:25 PM
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Any "Paper data" from the bullet company is going to make ammo look good.
Commercials and second party that back the company will also do a thumbs up.

Lucky Gunner does not get "Kick backs" and lets the bullets do their thing, good or bad.

It gives you a basic look at the ammo and the energy and bullet expansion results.
Some of my personal test in a snub nose 38 did better or sometimes worst, than LG test.
FPS can be very different out of a different weapon........
so you need to shoot it and see what takes place.

I have three SD ammo selections for my 1 7/8" 38 J frame....
so I did not need to test this ammo but it might be great for you.
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Old 10-04-2018, 02:58 PM
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When I saw the title of this post I thought it was for a raffle.

I have fired the standard velocity PDX-1 ammo in some of my snubbies and would probably carry it in some of the older guns. (non +P guns)

Bill
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Old 10-04-2018, 03:52 PM
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I use the Win defend 38 load but haven't compared it to the Win train 38 load. But you can be fairly certain those two will be closer in impact point to each other than most other combos out there. For example Hornady Critical defense 110 or 110+p will hit different (lower) than any other cheap practice load.
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:22 PM
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I do not remember the last time I bought 38SPL
I handload for all my revolvers except 22LR obviously.
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Old 10-05-2018, 12:57 PM
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Lucky funner site seems to suggest that the 130 grain train & defend would be a decent choice. 800 fps and 13” penetration with .59” expansion from 2” barrel. Compared to others, larger expansion even with +p rounds may get equal if not less penetration. Wad cutters got more penetration but as expected, zero expansion.

Not sure how these bullets would compare if they hit a bone, such as a rib. Which is reasonable possibility when shooting center of mass. In that case the wadcutter may steamroll through while the expanding hollow point may splatter. In which case maybe a win 148 super X-match wad cutter would be a reasonable better choice given more penetration assurance.
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Old 10-08-2018, 12:45 PM
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My 69-year-old wife uses the Winchester® Train & Defend® 38 Special standard pressure ammunition. She really likes it as it shoots to POA in her J frame yet has manageable recoil. She highly recommends it!
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Old 10-08-2018, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyingfool View Post
Lucky funner site seems to suggest that the 130 grain train & defend would be a decent choice. 800 fps and 13” penetration with .59” expansion from 2” barrel. Compared to others, larger expansion even with +p rounds may get equal if not less penetration. Wad cutters got more penetration but as expected, zero expansion.

Not sure how these bullets would compare if they hit a bone, such as a rib. Which is reasonable possibility when shooting center of mass. In that case the wadcutter may steamroll through while the expanding hollow point may splatter. In which case maybe a win 148 super X-match wad cutter would be a reasonable better choice given more penetration assurance.
You are one of many that like the Win Super X Match wadcutters at least for practice. My question is this: Being non-jacketed lead, will this round lead up a 3-inch bbl.?
I hate cleaning lead out of my Model 37 or any old blue revolver. Perhaps after only 5 or ten shots with this low velocity round one would not expect much leading. But, I don't know what to expect after practice with 50 or so rounds because I don't know whether Win uses a soft or hard lead for wadcutters. I e-mailed them but got no direct answer.
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:59 PM
Flyingfool Flyingfool is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badge 851 View Post
My 69-year-old wife uses the Winchester® Train & Defend® 38 Special standard pressure ammunition. She really likes it as it shoots to POA in her J frame yet has manageable recoil. She highly recommends it!
Why does your wife like this ammo? Does she notice less recoil than other ammo she has tried?
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Old 10-11-2018, 01:43 PM
Flyingfool Flyingfool is offline
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Looks like there are few people who use Win train and defense.

But also appears there is no strong reason not to use it.

In looking at the lucky gunners site. That a lot of people use the speer gold dot for short barrel. This is a +p round and by the penetration and rhe pictures of recovered bullets, I am not overly impressed. +p recoil and got virtually no different Result as the supposed low recoil train and defend.

The 130 HST has impressive expansion but less penetration. I would have some concern what such an expansive bullet would do if it hit a bone. Also like wadcutter they may be fine for the first cylinder, but with the flat end, doesn’t aid for speed of reloading should one need to reload in a hurry.

I think I will have to buy some of each the train, and the defend rounds and see what my wife and daughter think compared to other training rounds, and yhe existing federal SD rounds (can’t remember exactly the box of SD ammo they have now)

Last edited by Flyingfool; 10-11-2018 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:27 AM
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If you haven't watched Paul Harrell, you need to start. He does some outstanding informational videos. Here's his take on 38 special train and defend ammo, though not the combined T&D he makes some excellent points on both.

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Old 10-12-2018, 02:35 PM
Flyingfool Flyingfool is offline
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That video is disappointing for the defend round. But doesn’t seem to match the luckygunner result although that was only into geletin with 4 layers of blue jean material to simulate clothing.
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