30-06 on a cloth belt

[walnutred]

Wife and I stopped in one of those antique malls yesterday and one booth had some military ammo. One that caught my eye was a cloth belt of 30-06, 250 rds, one tracer then two AP. No M2 ball in the whole belt, just tracer and AP. Would that have been aircraft configuration?

[LoboGunLeather]

Early iterations of the Browning .30 caliber machinegun utilized a cloth belt. As I recall this was the norm through WW1, perhaps later.

Practically nothing was done to modernize US military weaponry between WW1 and WW2. One of the major challenges was ramping up a massive production effort for war materiel of all kinds, both for US forces and the Lend-Lease program supporting the allied nations before and during the early years of WW2.

The "disintegrating link" belt feed generally replaced cloth belts by WW2. Earlier .30 cal MGs may have continued in service with reserve or national guard units for a longer time.

[Charlie Foxtrott]

Did you buy it?

[DWalt]

AP wasn’t in general use until WWII, but late in the war, a great deal of it was in use for both rifles and MGs. I believe the normal tracer ratio for MGs was around 1 in 5, maybe even less. Certainly not 1 in 3.

[stansdds]

I know with U.S. aircraft in WW II the ratio of tracers and AP was usually 1 in 5.

[SnidelyWhiplash]

I’m not aware of any U.S. aircraft with fixed or flexible machine guns that used cloth belt…only disintegrating links for ejection purposes. Fighter planes with wing guns had ejection chutes for empty casings. Bombers like B17s would have the fuselage floors full of loose fired casings after a mission.

I believe cloth belts were used in the war for ground and maybe armor used machine guns until disintegrating link type replaced them.

[jimmyj]

Right after the Pearl Harbor Attack reserve ammo was issue out for beach defense. It was discovered that the cloth belted .30 machine ammo (from WW1) for the most part the cloth belts had rotten.

[walnutred]

Originally Posted by Charlie Foxtrott

Did you buy it?

No, I didn't buy the belt, they were asking $300. Which is probably not too bad considering what surplus 30 cal ammo is bring. It was in a locked case so I didn't ask to check the head stamp since I knew I wasn't buying.

[retarmyaviator]

Cloth .30 cal belts in NOS condition generally go for between $25-35. Not hard to find.

Link has more information than most non collectors will want to know.

https://smallarmsreview.com/ww2-u-s-...ic-belts-pt-i/

[DWalt]

Cloth belts were sometimes used during WWII for both the M1917 and M1919 Brownings. It has been some years ago I bought a like-new cloth belt, I think from IMA. It was not very expensive. I had found one of the early wooden MG ammunition boxes, restored it, and loaded it with belted dummy .30-‘06 rounds as a display for the local military museum. Those early wooden ammo boxes are somewhat difficult to find in good condition today. Back before WWII they were not considered expendable, rather they were a permanent part of the MG. They were kept and re-filled by the gun crew after each use. The stamped sheet metal MG ammo cans were from the WWII and later era.

I also had a large military duck ammunition bag. I don't know but I always thought it was used, among other purposes, to carry loaded cloth MG ammunition belts for refilling those wooden ammunition boxes. I also donated it to the museum.

[retarmyaviator]

The metal cans went into production in the fall of 1942.

The M1 30 cal link did not start making it to ground units until around 1943 as aviation units had priority. Cloth belt production ended in 1945. The metal links never did completely replace the cloth belts during WWII. You can find photos of cloth belts still in service during the Korean War.

As late as the 60s cloth belts could still be found in training units.

TM 9-1305-200, June 1961 "This type of belt is no longer used for packing new ammunition. Ammunition packed in web belts is restricted to issue and use within the continental United States for training purposes only".

[pantannojack]

I read that many pilots refused to use tracers because their targeted enemy would see them fly by as they were being bracketed.

[stansdds]

Originally Posted by pantannojack

I read that many pilots refused to use tracers because their targeted enemy would see them fly by as they were being bracketed.

I've also read that some pilots wanted extra tracers near the end of the ammo belt to act as a warning that they were nearly out of ammo.

[LoboGunLeather]

Originally Posted by stansdds

I've also read that some pilots wanted extra tracers near the end of the ammo belt to act as a warning that they were nearly out of ammo.

We did something similar in Vietnam, loading the last 3 rounds in the rifle magazine as tracers, a reminder to change magazines.

M16 rifle, from the top: 1 tracer, 4 ball, 1 tracer, 4 ball, 1 tracer, 4 ball, then 3 tracers. 18 rounds total in a 20-round magazine, because we all knew that fully loaded magazines caused feeding problems at the worst possible times.

[ArchAngelCD]

Originally Posted by walnutred

Wife and I stopped in one of those antique malls yesterday and one booth had some military ammo. One that caught my eye was a cloth belt of 30-06, 250 rds, one tracer then two AP. No M2 ball in the whole belt, just tracer and AP. Would that have been aircraft configuration?

Originally Posted by walnutred

No, I didn't buy the belt, they were asking $300. Which is probably not too bad considering what surplus 30 cal ammo is bring. It was in a locked case so I didn't ask to check the head stamp since I knew I wasn't buying.

I hate to tell you but, looking online I see a current price for a can of 192 30-06 M2 AP ammo is $739.98. From what you tell us that belt had 166 or 167 rounds of the M2 AP ammo. That belt had about $640 of that ammo.

Currently the price for 30-06 tracers is $28/20 rounds. That belt had about 83 rounds so it had another $110+ in traced ammo.

You might have been able to get him down off that $300 mark some.

I would say $300 for $750 in ammo would have been a very good buy. You could have sold some to get back your $300 and still had a lot of AP ammo left for yourself. Current prices put the AP ammo @$3.85 a piece. Sell off 60
rounds of the tracers and 60 rounds of the AP and you get all your money back plus over 105 rounds of AP ammo and 23 tracers for yourself...

[jake1945]

I carried the M14 in Vietnam. Some new guys were loading tracer rounds and were told to not do that. The VC or NVA would see tracer rounds coming at them and concentrate fire on that location thinking it was a machine gun (M60, 'hog').

[RM Vivas]

Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather

We did something similar in Vietnam, loading the last 3 rounds in the rifle magazine as tracers, a reminder to change magazines.

M16 rifle, from the top: 1 tracer, 4 ball, 1 tracer, 4 ball, 1 tracer, 4 ball, then 3 tracers. 18 rounds total in a 20-round magazine, because we all knew that fully loaded magazines caused feeding problems at the worst possible times.

I loaded one tracer round at the halfway mark so I knew my magazine was half expended. Last three rounds were tracer so I knew I was running dry.

Kept one mag of straight tracer in my pocket to use to direct fire if there was something only I could see and I wanted everyone else to unload on it.

[LoboGunLeather]

Originally Posted by jake1945

I carried the M14 in Vietnam. Some new guys were loading tracer rounds and were told to not do that. The VC or NVA would see tracer rounds coming at them and concentrate fire on that location thinking it was a machine gun (M60, 'hog').

There is always that concern. Tracers work both ways, showing where your shots are going while also showing your location and potentially drawing fire on yourself.

[Baltimoreed11754]

Built the dummy rounds and repainted, replaced the missing leather handle on this ammo box. Made the mounting bracket for my gas 1917 WC build. I have a couple more boxes to redo the handles on. They are tough. Love the stamped/painted? bullets on the inside of the bottom of the box so they were loaded correctly.

[oink]

My older brother claims to have loaded extra tracers, I think every other one, as he claimed in an ambush type situation (I don't recall who was ambushing who) it caused the enemy to at least initially duck and not fire. He had the creds to back up his story (9th Infantry Riverine Ranger/RECONDO/LRRP, well metaled, wounded X2) but of course that doesn't mean his theory was necessarily the best. I don't know if he loaded all mags that way or just some.

I need to go visit him again soon. He's having some serious health challenges. I think doctors speculate a lot of his physical problems are due to Agent Orange.

When he came home my brother told me emphatically to not join. I came along later (1970) and had a high lottery number (186 maybe?). Before lottery I was 1A and tried to join the Coast Guard Reserves. I was informed there was a 2 year waiting list. Unfortunately I lost my draft card years ago.

I have total respect for those that served.

[Ivan the Butcher]

In 1980, a vender at an OGCA show had brand new 30 cal. cloth belts for $4 each.

When you buy loose links for a Browning MG, be careful the 303 British link is very hard to tell for a 30-06 link. A couple million rounds of Iraqi 303 was sold belted as surplus. I bought several hundred rounds and pulled the ammo. Of course, if you have a British 30 1919 you will need the correct link! (How do you tell Iraqi Ammo? The headstamp look like Greek letters, Greek ammo uses our type of numbers!)

Ivan

[DWalt]

I have several thousand 7.62 and 5.56 links and nothing to use them with.