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Old 10-09-2018, 07:46 PM
Echo47 Echo47 is offline
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historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W  
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Default historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W

We have seen many changes in recommended ammunition and handguns for our military and LE personnel over the years since the development of smokeless ammunition following the Civil War.
After the ill-fated Miami shootout in 1968, the FBI went from the 9mm to the .40S&W cartridge as their recommended caliber for duty firearms and ammunition.

I have been unsuccessfully searching for old articles from the .40 S&W era (post-1967) discussing the FBI's then-new recommendations for duty ammunition. Note these ammunition recommendations are NOT for the lighter-weight ammunition for concealed or small-framed .40 S&W autos, but ammunition specifically for full-sized duty sidearms.
Any links which will provide me with the needed information will be humbly appreciated.
Please do NOT reiterate your personal feelings (be they pro or con) about the recent switch back to the 9mm cartridge. We each have our perspectives and arguments supporting our feelings about this issue and that distraction will only reduce my chances of getting the information I am requesting and make this thread much longer than it needs to be! Kindly save your arguments for a different post and area.
rustymusket
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Old 10-09-2018, 08:21 PM
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Nedroe Nedroe is offline
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Default FBI SHOOTOUT....

I think part of the problem with your search is the fact that the infamous shootout occurred in 1986, not 1968. I'm pretty sure there was no .40 S&W
in 1968.

GOOGLE is your friend.


Ned
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Old 10-09-2018, 09:03 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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The FBI .40 S&W ammo went from the HS1 load (180 @ 980 fps) originally to the HS3 load (165 @ 980 fps). They have just gone back to 180 grain in the Winchester Bonded load.
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Old 10-09-2018, 09:09 PM
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historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W  
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Ammo changes for the military and law enforcement agencies are budget driven! I ignore them and choose what is right for me.

The FBI learned a great deal from the shootout in Miami and it was more than ammo selection.
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Old 10-09-2018, 09:16 PM
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historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W  
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there are many new/ old choices of ammo for SD/ EDC. was looking last night @ a 40 cal./ full copper bullet/ w/ a spirel bullet. my 2 cts, Federal/ Hydra Shok/ 165 gr., several years ago i was shooting @ knock down 15 yd, steel 1/2" ; 6"x4" plates. the hydra shok's did slam down w/ a loud noise/ force. noticed the plates had mushroomed inprints on the plates, the center insert also marked clearly on the faceplate. the hydra shok's also come in several other calibers.
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Old 10-10-2018, 07:30 AM
crazyphil crazyphil is offline
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historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo47 View Post
We have seen many changes in recommended ammunition and handguns for our military and LE personnel over the years since the development of smokeless ammunition following the Civil War.
After the ill-fated Miami shootout in 1968, the FBI went from the 9mm to the .40S&W cartridge as their recommended caliber for duty firearms and ammunition.

I have been unsuccessfully searching for old articles from the .40 S&W era (post-1967) discussing the FBI's then-new recommendations for duty ammunition. Note these ammunition recommendations are NOT for the lighter-weight ammunition for concealed or small-framed .40 S&W autos, but ammunition specifically for full-sized duty sidearms.
Any links which will provide me with the needed information will be humbly appreciated.
Please do NOT reiterate your personal feelings (be they pro or con) about the recent switch back to the 9mm cartridge. We each have our perspectives and arguments supporting our feelings about this issue and that distraction will only reduce my chances of getting the information I am requesting and make this thread much longer than it needs to be! Kindly save your arguments for a different post and area.
rustymusket
Perhaps the article you are looking for is .40 S&W: THE
COMPROMISE CARTRIDGE, written by Massad Ayoob.
Handguns Magazine October 2001. Even if it's not it does
cover the subject you are interested in quite well.

Sorry I don't have a link. Perhaps you can Google it.
I have the actual article. I save things like that.
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Last edited by crazyphil; 10-10-2018 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 10-10-2018, 07:57 AM
Echo47 Echo47 is offline
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historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W  
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Default historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40S&W

Nedroe: Mea culpa. Yes, my error.
sorry

Sorry you weren't able to contribute to the issue of the thread.
Echo47
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:10 AM
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Skeptic 9c Skeptic 9c is offline
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Had the FBI agents in the Infamous Miami Shootout (TM) been carrying 1928 Thompson Submachine Guns like the Agency did back in the 1930s, we wouldn't have been blabbering about it for the last 30+ years.
Geoff
Who notes the motor bandit problem continues.
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Old 10-10-2018, 05:47 PM
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historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W  
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Here are two useful sources of info about self-defense ammo:

Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...ic-tests/#40SW
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Old 10-11-2018, 12:43 AM
usmc2427765 usmc2427765 is offline
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In 1986, about a month before the Miami shootout, I attended an FBI Firearms Instructors Academy along with several other firearms instructors from my department. We were all seasoned instructors with 5 or more years of service, however we did not have the magic FBI certificate. The course was revolver and shotgun driven. As local cops we had a love/hate relationship with them and gave them a hard time about their ignorance of the semi-autos. They were good instructors and took the back and forth in a good way.

One 2 hour course of fire was with semi-autos and all of the instructors from our department carried 1911's and were good shooters, several shooting competition. As I recall we fired 100 rounds of mostly 38 super and 45 acp ammo. During the course of fire we did not have any malfunctions of any type. During the live fire portion, I noticed an FBI agent that I had not seen before behind us carrying a clipboard and making notes. After the live fire he quizzed us about the fact that we did not have any problems and we told him we shot nearly every day as instructors and kept our gear clean and top condition. He left shortly after and we did not see him again.

I became friends with one of the FBI instructors and asked about this person, and he informed me that he was sent from Quantico to document all of our malfunctions and make a report on this. We had none and I guess he left disappointed. Less that a month later the Miami shootout took place. I would give anything to read the report he filed. One of the FBI instructors was Don Gray and he was one of the finest shotgun gun men I have ever run across.
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:26 AM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
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historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W historic info: FBI recommended duty ammo in .40 S&W  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeptic 9c View Post
Had the FBI agents in the Infamous Miami Shootout (TM) been carrying 1928 Thompson Submachine Guns like the Agency did back in the 1930s, we wouldn't have been blabbering about it for the last 30+ years.
Geoff
Who notes the motor bandit problem continues.
The horrific error that caused the catastrophic outcome was tactical. The FBI's biggest error was not allowing Miami PD to do the car stop. Miami PD probably had at least 50 ground units in service and helicopters. The FBI cops should have abandoned their attempt at arrest when they were unable to secure an advantageous position (classic felony car stop position). The stop set up FBI cops for a catastrophic outcome. Bad guys' backs must always be to cops. Guns mattered little in the outcome.

Had Miami PD handled the stop, it would have turned out differently. A Miami PD helicopter could've directed ground units into advantageous position.

FBI cops' decisions, not their guns, caused the outcome. They should've bailed, requested Miami PD assistance, and maneuvered behind the dirt bag's vehicle. They NEEDED a helicopter. A bird in the sky would've changed the outcome.
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:38 PM
stansdds stansdds is offline
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Yep, the infamous FBI Miami shootout disaster had nothing to do with weapons or calibers, but was a tactical blunder. Rather that blame tactics and decisions, it is easier to blame inanimate objects. The result was the 40 S&W caliber. A compromise designed to fit into high capacity 9mm pistols, offering more muzzle energy (and recoil) than the 9x19mm, and more capacity than a single stack 45 ACP pistol. It is not some magical, mystical 100% perp stopper, but it is a jack of all trades and being such, it is a master of none.

Just my opinion.
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