Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > Ammo
o

Notices

Ammo All Ammo Discussions Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:17 PM
captainwayne captainwayne is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 154
Likes: 394
Liked 108 Times in 42 Posts
Default USPSA 38 special shorts?

I’m a new USPSA revolver shooter with a super cool 627-2 Smith. In an efffort to shoot less potent rounds with less muzzle flip, as well as faster reloading, I bought 38 special shorts from an online seller. I shot very well with them but they failed to knock over large steel targets with a single round. Not good! Some said they thought the rounds wouldn’t make “minor power factor “ in a match.
My question is, why don’t ammo manufacturers make competition level ammo designed to meet the intended criteria?
Next question is where do I buy shorter rounds that have ample pop?
Not into reloading(yet)
Thanks in advance

Last edited by captainwayne; 10-22-2018 at 05:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:39 PM
Lou_the_welder's Avatar
Lou_the_welder Lou_the_welder is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Los Angeles,California
Posts: 1,885
Likes: 3,791
Liked 4,094 Times in 1,212 Posts
Default

Were they those Magtech ones? 125gr?

Caliber: .38 Special-Short

Bullet Weight: 125 grain

Bullet Style: LRN

Muzzle Velocity: 686 FPS

Muzzle Energy: 130 ft.-lbs.

Case Type: Brass

Primer Type: Boxer, reloadable

Corrosive: No

I didn't know they sold em until I looked em up. 686 fps is pretty low. It's a very light round.

I do load "shorts" with starline brass using starting 9mm recipes. Using 9mm bullets. Around 900 fps. I do not buy loaded ammo. I dont know of any manufacturer that might.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:44 PM
Pizza Bob's Avatar
Pizza Bob Pizza Bob is offline
SWCA Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Central NJ
Posts: 2,727
Likes: 383
Liked 5,553 Times in 1,498 Posts
Default

Shooting the 8-shot 627 in USPSA competition with short ammunition is, AFAIK, strictly a handloaders game. Shooters favor either .38 Short or Long Colt brass in moon clips. If, as Lou points out, you are using the MagTech load - it doesn't even come close to making minor power factor. Power factor is bullet weight X velocity / 1000. Minimum for USPSA is 125 - the MagTech load figures to 82.5. That doesn't even make minor for IDPA BUG gun.

Take heart - one of the country's best revolver shooters, Josh Lentz, used full length .38 Special in a 627 for quite a while, until he started using a 929. Your biggest challenge in using full length .38 Spl will be finding moon clips that hold the ammo rigidly. Especially critical with the longer cases to facilitate faster alignment with the charge holes. You will need to find the headstamp/moon clip combo that works best in this regard.

Adios,

Pizza Bob
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member

Last edited by Pizza Bob; 10-22-2018 at 05:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:53 PM
D Brown's Avatar
D Brown D Brown is offline
SWCA Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,158
Likes: 21,164
Liked 7,109 Times in 1,990 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainwayne View Post
I’m a new USPSA revolver shooter with a super cool 627-2 Smith. In an efffort to shoot less potent rounds with less muzzle flip, as well as faster reloading, I bought 38 special shorts from an online seller. I shot very well with them but they failed to knock over large steel targets with a single round. Not good! Some said they thought the rounds wouldn’t make “minor power factor “ in a match.
My question is, why don’t ammo manufacturers make competition level ammo designed to meet the intended criteria?
Next question is where do I buy shorter rounds that have ample pop?
Not into reloading(yet)
Thanks in advance
Keep in mind that not all "Competition Ammunition" is geared toward USPSA Competition. It may be intended for some other competition venue such as "Cowboy Action Competition". The power floors are vastly different between the various competitions. Last time I checked, the power floor for "Minor" in USPSA Competition was 125,000, where bullet weight times ACTUAL muzzle velocity must be equal or greater than 125,000 to make the power floor.

Cowboy Action, you just basically need for the bullet to be going fast enough to leave the muzzle of your gun to be a legal load. O.K., that may be a SLIGHT bit of an exaggeration, but not much!

Bottom line, verify the power of the ammunition you're using to make sure it's suitable for its intended purpose.
__________________
Dave Brown
SWCA #3279
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 10-22-2018, 06:37 PM
captainwayne captainwayne is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 154
Likes: 394
Liked 108 Times in 42 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou_the_welder View Post
Were they those Magtech ones? 125gr?

Caliber: .38 Special-Short

Bullet Weight: 125 grain

Bullet Style: LRN

Muzzle Velocity: 686 FPS

Muzzle Energy: 130 ft.-lbs.

Case Type: Brass

Primer Type: Boxer, reloadable

Corrosive: No

I didn't know they sold em until I looked em up. 686 fps is pretty low. It's a very light round.

I do load "shorts" with starline brass using starting 9mm recipes. Using 9mm bullets. Around 900 fps. I do not buy loaded ammo. I dont know of any manufacturer that might.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Gotcha! That’s the ammo I’ve used
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-22-2018, 06:42 PM
captainwayne captainwayne is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 154
Likes: 394
Liked 108 Times in 42 Posts
Default

I hear you! I thought about going to a 929 but there’s been a lot of negative pub about this gun. Last one I saw was on “box to match” with Patrick Kelly, stating he thought that the barrel may be a 357/38speciL barrel, as he couldn’t get good grouping against his control gun
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-22-2018, 07:34 PM
Pizza Bob's Avatar
Pizza Bob Pizza Bob is offline
SWCA Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Central NJ
Posts: 2,727
Likes: 383
Liked 5,553 Times in 1,498 Posts
Default

I'm not sure going to the 929 would be any better a solution as I too have heard they shoot better using .356" or .357" bullets, which again would make it a handloading proposition. You have the right gun, just shoot it with .38 Spls until you get into handloading. I shoot a 627-4PC (.38 Super) in USPSA and I use .357" 160 gr. RN Bayou coated bullets.

Good luck. Stick with it.

Adios,

Pizza Bob
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 10-22-2018, 08:36 PM
Protocall_Design Protocall_Design is offline
Vendor
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kansas City area
Posts: 6,129
Likes: 53,438
Liked 13,435 Times in 4,240 Posts
Default

I'm using 160 gr. Bayou roundnose bullets in Starline Short Colt brass with excellent results. Reload to 820 FPS or more. Mild recoil, good knockdown.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 10-22-2018, 10:46 PM
MWC2068 MWC2068 is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Wyoming/Arizona
Posts: 143
Likes: 84
Liked 53 Times in 37 Posts
Default

If you want to reconsider the 929, Federal makes a 150 gr. coated factory round in 9mm that makes power factor and works well with lightened triggers. It's called syntech.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #10  
Old 10-23-2018, 02:32 AM
captainwayne captainwayne is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 154
Likes: 394
Liked 108 Times in 42 Posts
Default

Thanks gentlemen!
Looks like I'm buying reloading stuff!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-23-2018, 03:20 AM
Frank46 Frank46 is offline
US Veteran
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: New Iberia, Louisiana
Posts: 4,588
Likes: 25,427
Liked 3,380 Times in 1,736 Posts
Default

Most ammo mfgr's load match ammo but may only do seasonal runs, you may have to special order it or roll your own. The U.S. Military has been for many years loading national match,match or special ball and other designations. I have the remains of a 500 round lot of Lake City M72 match. And while dated 1967 it still amazes me when it's shot out of my Sako Hunter in you guessed it 30-06. I'm talking about 1" groups. A good friend swears by Special Ball in his M1A. don't shoot either pistol or revolvers as much as I used to. For revolver one of my S&W revolvers in 44 special or in 9mm an old West German Sig P6. Frank
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 10-23-2018, 12:01 PM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,483
Likes: 236
Liked 28,948 Times in 14,015 Posts
Default

Is the .38 Special Short the same as the .38 Short Colt?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 10-23-2018, 01:40 PM
yeti's Avatar
yeti yeti is offline
US Veteran
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,350
Likes: 2,854
Liked 2,765 Times in 1,160 Posts
Default

Ultimately you are much better off rolling your own and you can get exactly what you need.... if you have the time and attention to detail.

In the meantime or instead of doing your own, here is a pretty soft commercial option that will knock steel down, but barely makes Minor Power Factor in most 4"+ barrels.
Caveat: Don't be too shocked if you don't make PF on a cold match morning.
38 SPL 158GR LFN - Magtech
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #14  
Old 10-25-2018, 02:37 AM
captainwayne captainwayne is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 154
Likes: 394
Liked 108 Times in 42 Posts
Default

Thanks Yeti;
I'll get a few boxes of those instead of the shorts.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 10-25-2018, 07:24 AM
Goblin Goblin is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: May 2014
Location: North Texas
Posts: 1,596
Likes: 2,455
Liked 1,148 Times in 608 Posts
Default

Note that the power factor is easier to meet with a heavy-for-caliber bullet. For you, a 158 grain lead round nose should be considered. For shooting steel for time using timers that use stop plates, you lose hundredths of seconds that add up when you’re shooting at the top level, but for most matches it isn’t a concern. There are pros and cons for heavy and light bullets, make sure you choose what’s best for you and then evolve.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 10-25-2018, 07:59 PM
ArchAngelCD's Avatar
ArchAngelCD ArchAngelCD is offline
Moderator
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Northeast PA, USA
Posts: 8,877
Likes: 1,029
Liked 5,070 Times in 2,660 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
Is the .38 Special Short the same as the .38 Short Colt?
No, Magtech actually makes a short .38 Special round. I didn't know about it until I saw them a few years ago.
Magtech Sport Ammo 38 Special Short 125 Grain Lead - MPN: 38G (50)

It was confusing for me until I saw them.
__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #17  
Old 10-26-2018, 07:53 PM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,483
Likes: 236
Liked 28,948 Times in 14,015 Posts
Default

One of the user comments from the Magtech ad above: "Very good substitute for .38 Short and Long Colt in vintage revolvers like Colt Lightning."

From the picture, the case length seems close to the .38 Short Colt. Maybe it's a little shorter. I have 100 .38 Short Colt cases I have reloaded many times, and they are still in good condition. Great for use in snubbies with short extractor rods to get full ejection.

I don't quite understand how it can be a called a .38 Special Short. It is either a .38 Special or it's not. By that logic a .44 Russian should be called a .44 Special Short.

Last edited by DWalt; 10-26-2018 at 07:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #18  
Old 10-27-2018, 11:08 AM
yeti's Avatar
yeti yeti is offline
US Veteran
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,350
Likes: 2,854
Liked 2,765 Times in 1,160 Posts
Default

That 38 Special short ammo is 85PF....85!

Minor differences between 38 Short Colt & 38 Special Short. Just in case length?
Heard there is/was a 38 Extra Short Colt too. I've never seen one myself.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #19  
Old 10-29-2018, 10:44 PM
captainwayne captainwayne is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 154
Likes: 394
Liked 108 Times in 42 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolguy View Post
I'm using 160 gr. Bayou roundnose bullets in Starline Short Colt brass with excellent results. Reload to 820 FPS or more. Mild recoil, good knockdown.
Toolguy;
You without a doubt are one of the most reliable sources of good information about Smith revolvers.
I found some 158 grain short 38 specials to burn, but will save the cases to hopefully find someone to reload closer to your specs, with your recommended 160 gr bullets.
Thanks in advance
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-01-2018, 10:33 AM
captainwayne captainwayne is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 154
Likes: 394
Liked 108 Times in 42 Posts
Default

Of course I screwed up and bought S&w 38 ammo 158
ammo not realizing it wasn’t 38 special.
From what I’ve read they won’t work for me. Is this correct? Thanks in advance
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #21  
Old 11-01-2018, 10:39 AM
captainwayne captainwayne is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 154
Likes: 394
Liked 108 Times in 42 Posts
Default

Will short colts work?
I guess the question is what 38 rounds WONT work?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-01-2018, 10:42 AM
ArchAngelCD's Avatar
ArchAngelCD ArchAngelCD is offline
Moderator
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Northeast PA, USA
Posts: 8,877
Likes: 1,029
Liked 5,070 Times in 2,660 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainwayne View Post
Of course I screwed up and bought S&w 38 ammo 158
ammo not realizing it wasn’t 38 special.
From what I’ve read they won’t work for me. Is this correct? Thanks in advance
If you bought that Magtech .38 Special Short ammo, no, you did not mess up. .38 S&W ammo is not the same as any .38 Special ammo.
__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-01-2018, 01:49 PM
captainwayne captainwayne is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 154
Likes: 394
Liked 108 Times in 42 Posts
Default

I did order the S&W 38 ammo. Thankfully, I didn't complete the purchase. Apparently there was something I forgot to fill out!
I've got a few hundred of the 38 special short cartridges, and I think someone who will reload for me at a nominal cost.
Should I go with a heavy bullet, like a 160 like tooguy recommends?
Also, will short cold 38 work in my 627?
I'm on a learning curve for sure!
Thanks again
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-01-2018, 03:49 PM
S&WIowegan S&WIowegan is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Iowa
Posts: 4,106
Likes: 14,444
Liked 3,763 Times in 1,784 Posts
Thumbs up

The answer to all your questions in the post above is yes. Use heavy bullets in 38 Short(colt) brass along with a small dose of very fast powder(I use Vihtavouri N310 because it's so clean). You can use 38 Long Colt brass, 38 Special and even 357 Magnum cases. However, the larger the case, the more powder you'll need to make power factor.

Warning: Not all 38 Special reloading setups will work with 38 Short Colt brass because the case is so short.
__________________
Bob.
SWCA 1821
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #25  
Old 11-01-2018, 05:21 PM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is offline
Member
USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts? USPSA 38 special shorts?  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,483
Likes: 236
Liked 28,948 Times in 14,015 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by S&WIowegan View Post
Warning: Not all 38 Special reloading setups will work with 38 Short Colt brass because the case is so short.
I use the .38 Special sizing die to resize and deprime .38 SC, and 9mm expander and seating dies. They work fine.

I do something similar for loading .38 S&W - a .38 Super sizing die, and 9mm expander and seating dies. That also works well.

I generally load .38 SC using .38 S&W reloading data, but if one was a little daring and used lighter bullets, 9mm data would work.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
.22 shorts. Where are they OK? Jessie Ammo 19 11-14-2017 01:04 AM
Getting into shorts Mike McLellan Ammo 18 01-18-2013 10:00 PM
.22 shorts Texashunter Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 9 12-29-2011 11:41 AM
5.11 shorts b79holmes Concealed Carry & Self Defense 16 10-03-2011 04:51 PM
Age of this box of .22 shorts. GF Ammo 10 02-08-2011 02:11 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:08 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)