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10-22-2018, 05:17 PM
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USPSA 38 special shorts?
I’m a new USPSA revolver shooter with a super cool 627-2 Smith. In an efffort to shoot less potent rounds with less muzzle flip, as well as faster reloading, I bought 38 special shorts from an online seller. I shot very well with them but they failed to knock over large steel targets with a single round. Not good! Some said they thought the rounds wouldn’t make “minor power factor “ in a match.
My question is, why don’t ammo manufacturers make competition level ammo designed to meet the intended criteria?
Next question is where do I buy shorter rounds that have ample pop?
Not into reloading(yet)
Thanks in advance
Last edited by captainwayne; 10-22-2018 at 05:21 PM.
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10-22-2018, 05:39 PM
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Were they those Magtech ones? 125gr?
Caliber: .38 Special-Short
Bullet Weight: 125 grain
Bullet Style: LRN
Muzzle Velocity: 686 FPS
Muzzle Energy: 130 ft.-lbs.
Case Type: Brass
Primer Type: Boxer, reloadable
Corrosive: No
I didn't know they sold em until I looked em up. 686 fps is pretty low. It's a very light round.
I do load "shorts" with starline brass using starting 9mm recipes. Using 9mm bullets. Around 900 fps. I do not buy loaded ammo. I dont know of any manufacturer that might.
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10-22-2018, 05:44 PM
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Shooting the 8-shot 627 in USPSA competition with short ammunition is, AFAIK, strictly a handloaders game. Shooters favor either .38 Short or Long Colt brass in moon clips. If, as Lou points out, you are using the MagTech load - it doesn't even come close to making minor power factor. Power factor is bullet weight X velocity / 1000. Minimum for USPSA is 125 - the MagTech load figures to 82.5. That doesn't even make minor for IDPA BUG gun.
Take heart - one of the country's best revolver shooters, Josh Lentz, used full length .38 Special in a 627 for quite a while, until he started using a 929. Your biggest challenge in using full length .38 Spl will be finding moon clips that hold the ammo rigidly. Especially critical with the longer cases to facilitate faster alignment with the charge holes. You will need to find the headstamp/moon clip combo that works best in this regard.
Adios,
Pizza Bob
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Last edited by Pizza Bob; 10-22-2018 at 05:50 PM.
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10-22-2018, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainwayne
I’m a new USPSA revolver shooter with a super cool 627-2 Smith. In an efffort to shoot less potent rounds with less muzzle flip, as well as faster reloading, I bought 38 special shorts from an online seller. I shot very well with them but they failed to knock over large steel targets with a single round. Not good! Some said they thought the rounds wouldn’t make “minor power factor “ in a match.
My question is, why don’t ammo manufacturers make competition level ammo designed to meet the intended criteria?
Next question is where do I buy shorter rounds that have ample pop?
Not into reloading(yet)
Thanks in advance
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Keep in mind that not all "Competition Ammunition" is geared toward USPSA Competition. It may be intended for some other competition venue such as "Cowboy Action Competition". The power floors are vastly different between the various competitions. Last time I checked, the power floor for "Minor" in USPSA Competition was 125,000, where bullet weight times ACTUAL muzzle velocity must be equal or greater than 125,000 to make the power floor.
Cowboy Action, you just basically need for the bullet to be going fast enough to leave the muzzle of your gun to be a legal load. O.K., that may be a SLIGHT bit of an exaggeration, but not much!
Bottom line, verify the power of the ammunition you're using to make sure it's suitable for its intended purpose.
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10-22-2018, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou_the_welder
Were they those Magtech ones? 125gr?
Caliber: .38 Special-Short
Bullet Weight: 125 grain
Bullet Style: LRN
Muzzle Velocity: 686 FPS
Muzzle Energy: 130 ft.-lbs.
Case Type: Brass
Primer Type: Boxer, reloadable
Corrosive: No
I didn't know they sold em until I looked em up. 686 fps is pretty low. It's a very light round.
I do load "shorts" with starline brass using starting 9mm recipes. Using 9mm bullets. Around 900 fps. I do not buy loaded ammo. I dont know of any manufacturer that might.
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Gotcha! That’s the ammo I’ve used
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10-22-2018, 06:42 PM
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I hear you! I thought about going to a 929 but there’s been a lot of negative pub about this gun. Last one I saw was on “box to match” with Patrick Kelly, stating he thought that the barrel may be a 357/38speciL barrel, as he couldn’t get good grouping against his control gun
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10-22-2018, 07:34 PM
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I'm not sure going to the 929 would be any better a solution as I too have heard they shoot better using .356" or .357" bullets, which again would make it a handloading proposition. You have the right gun, just shoot it with .38 Spls until you get into handloading. I shoot a 627-4PC (.38 Super) in USPSA and I use .357" 160 gr. RN Bayou coated bullets.
Good luck. Stick with it.
Adios,
Pizza Bob
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10-22-2018, 08:36 PM
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I'm using 160 gr. Bayou roundnose bullets in Starline Short Colt brass with excellent results. Reload to 820 FPS or more. Mild recoil, good knockdown.
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10-22-2018, 10:46 PM
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If you want to reconsider the 929, Federal makes a 150 gr. coated factory round in 9mm that makes power factor and works well with lightened triggers. It's called syntech.
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10-23-2018, 02:32 AM
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Thanks gentlemen!
Looks like I'm buying reloading stuff!
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10-23-2018, 03:20 AM
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Most ammo mfgr's load match ammo but may only do seasonal runs, you may have to special order it or roll your own. The U.S. Military has been for many years loading national match,match or special ball and other designations. I have the remains of a 500 round lot of Lake City M72 match. And while dated 1967 it still amazes me when it's shot out of my Sako Hunter in you guessed it 30-06. I'm talking about 1" groups. A good friend swears by Special Ball in his M1A. don't shoot either pistol or revolvers as much as I used to. For revolver one of my S&W revolvers in 44 special or in 9mm an old West German Sig P6. Frank
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10-23-2018, 12:01 PM
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Is the .38 Special Short the same as the .38 Short Colt?
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10-23-2018, 01:40 PM
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Ultimately you are much better off rolling your own and you can get exactly what you need.... if you have the time and attention to detail.
In the meantime or instead of doing your own, here is a pretty soft commercial option that will knock steel down, but barely makes Minor Power Factor in most 4"+ barrels.
Caveat: Don't be too shocked if you don't make PF on a cold match morning.
38 SPL 158GR LFN - Magtech
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10-25-2018, 02:37 AM
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Thanks Yeti;
I'll get a few boxes of those instead of the shorts.
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10-25-2018, 07:24 AM
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Note that the power factor is easier to meet with a heavy-for-caliber bullet. For you, a 158 grain lead round nose should be considered. For shooting steel for time using timers that use stop plates, you lose hundredths of seconds that add up when you’re shooting at the top level, but for most matches it isn’t a concern. There are pros and cons for heavy and light bullets, make sure you choose what’s best for you and then evolve.
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10-25-2018, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt
Is the .38 Special Short the same as the .38 Short Colt?
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No, Magtech actually makes a short .38 Special round. I didn't know about it until I saw them a few years ago.
Magtech Sport Ammo 38 Special Short 125 Grain Lead - MPN: 38G (50)
It was confusing for me until I saw them.
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10-26-2018, 07:53 PM
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One of the user comments from the Magtech ad above: "Very good substitute for .38 Short and Long Colt in vintage revolvers like Colt Lightning."
From the picture, the case length seems close to the .38 Short Colt. Maybe it's a little shorter. I have 100 .38 Short Colt cases I have reloaded many times, and they are still in good condition. Great for use in snubbies with short extractor rods to get full ejection.
I don't quite understand how it can be a called a .38 Special Short. It is either a .38 Special or it's not. By that logic a .44 Russian should be called a .44 Special Short.
Last edited by DWalt; 10-26-2018 at 07:59 PM.
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10-27-2018, 11:08 AM
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That 38 Special short ammo is 85PF....85!
Minor differences between 38 Short Colt & 38 Special Short. Just in case length?
Heard there is/was a 38 Extra Short Colt too. I've never seen one myself.
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10-29-2018, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolguy
I'm using 160 gr. Bayou roundnose bullets in Starline Short Colt brass with excellent results. Reload to 820 FPS or more. Mild recoil, good knockdown.
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Toolguy;
You without a doubt are one of the most reliable sources of good information about Smith revolvers.
I found some 158 grain short 38 specials to burn, but will save the cases to hopefully find someone to reload closer to your specs, with your recommended 160 gr bullets.
Thanks in advance
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11-01-2018, 10:33 AM
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Of course I screwed up and bought S&w 38 ammo 158
ammo not realizing it wasn’t 38 special.
From what I’ve read they won’t work for me. Is this correct? Thanks in advance
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11-01-2018, 10:39 AM
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Will short colts work?
I guess the question is what 38 rounds WONT work?
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11-01-2018, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainwayne
Of course I screwed up and bought S&w 38 ammo 158
ammo not realizing it wasn’t 38 special.
From what I’ve read they won’t work for me. Is this correct? Thanks in advance
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If you bought that Magtech .38 Special Short ammo, no, you did not mess up. .38 S&W ammo is not the same as any .38 Special ammo.
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11-01-2018, 01:49 PM
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I did order the S&W 38 ammo. Thankfully, I didn't complete the purchase. Apparently there was something I forgot to fill out!
I've got a few hundred of the 38 special short cartridges, and I think someone who will reload for me at a nominal cost.
Should I go with a heavy bullet, like a 160 like tooguy recommends?
Also, will short cold 38 work in my 627?
I'm on a learning curve for sure!
Thanks again
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11-01-2018, 03:49 PM
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The answer to all your questions in the post above is yes. Use heavy bullets in 38 Short(colt) brass along with a small dose of very fast powder(I use Vihtavouri N310 because it's so clean). You can use 38 Long Colt brass, 38 Special and even 357 Magnum cases. However, the larger the case, the more powder you'll need to make power factor.
Warning: Not all 38 Special reloading setups will work with 38 Short Colt brass because the case is so short.
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11-01-2018, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S&WIowegan
Warning: Not all 38 Special reloading setups will work with 38 Short Colt brass because the case is so short.
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I use the .38 Special sizing die to resize and deprime .38 SC, and 9mm expander and seating dies. They work fine.
I do something similar for loading .38 S&W - a .38 Super sizing die, and 9mm expander and seating dies. That also works well.
I generally load .38 SC using .38 S&W reloading data, but if one was a little daring and used lighter bullets, 9mm data would work.
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