IF, not saying I will. But If a person was going to go with non jacketed hollow points for a 38 special in a snubbie for self defense carry, what would be the ammo choice you would pick and why?

Seems like expansion with a snubbie (2” or less) is marginal to non existant especially with standard pressure 38 ammo. So if expansion is not likely, then why not get more penetration with a wadcutter or semiwadcutter? Get clean cut bleeding hole rather than rounded nose unexpanded jacketed hollow point than can spread and push through the muscle rather than cut or rip throigh it.

Would you choose full wacutter or semi-wadcutter? Why?

If choosesemiwadcutter, is there any advantage to go hollow point if there is little/no chance for expansion.

Seems like reloading with a semiwadcutter would be better than the full flat face cartridge.

Like to hear the recommendations along with reasons why.

Thanks

I would not use them. One time, to finish a deer, I shot it behind the ear with a .38 wadcutter. It did not penetrate the skull, in fact the slug was cut exactly in half. Each half ended up about 1.5 in. apart. Semi wadcutters would be better IMO.

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No baby we aint

@OP,

You are posting a good question, I just hope my answer is as good.

Presuming that you plan to subscribe, and adhere, to the strategy of self defense justification being within 7 yards, you are most likely looking at aiming center of mass, where you would have a target rich environment of soft tissue targets. In this instance I would use any commercially available wadcutter or semi-wadcutter round. The chance of an aimed headshot is unlikely given the time available.

Most commercially available factory wadcutter and semi-wadcutter load use swaged bullets. Swaged bullets are made of softer lead and are best suited to soft tissue or paper targets. Bone mass protects vital organs and can usually defeat swaged bullets. Cast bullets would be better suited for penetrating bone mass.

A point to keep in mind is that wadcutters do not lend themselves to a rapid reload, and semi-wadcutters would be preferred for a rapid reload.

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Judge control not gun control!

That’s as good of an answer to the many times asked question I have heard

Would you choose full wacutter or semi-wadcutter? Why?

ive used DEWC in my carry revolvers for years....

they come out fully expanded, good penetration, hard cast cuts through flesh, muscle and bone.....

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There's nowt so queer as folk

HARD CAST!!! In a double ended wad cutter, to get the largest surface area (meplat) possible. (the flying ashtray theory) Yes they are slower to reload but I figure it will likely be over one way or the other after the first 3 shots anyway. Guessing you are talking about a 38 snubnose??? People don't choose them for their fast re-loads.

I carry the 135 grain Speer Gold Dot JHP in my .38 snubby. I would have no problem using a full wadcutter but not one loaded at "target" velocities. Instead I would prefer a DEWC at 850-900 FPS or just go with the Buffalo Bore version.

I recently decided to buy some of Buffalo Bore's hard cast wadcutters for when I have to travel through states with weird ammo laws.

If I happen to run into feral hogs or the local chapter of the Vagos I'll do my best with what I have.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

I carry Buffalo Bore's hard cast double ended wadcutter in my snubs.
They run around 850 fps from a snub.
Target wadcutters will be either swaged hollow base (poor penetration) or swaged double ended wadcutters, with or without a coating. Better penetration than hollow base, but not as much penetration as hard cast.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

check out the new HST

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NRA Life
USPSA/IPSC

If.....
you reload, don't use the HBwc 148gr for speeds over 800fps.
If you don't have a chrony use the BBwc double flat base 148gr bullets
since they can be pushed faster w/o any problems.

Some like a heavier bullet like the lead 158gr FN or HP but out of a 2"
expansion will be minimal at 822fps or less, per factory speeds.
Since expansion is "Iffy" the FN can be used for practice and SD, if needed
saving on the cost of bullets, that you will need to buy.

If you don't load..............

The "New" Federal 130gr HST is your best low recoil SD load for a 16oz revolver.........
if it will work in your weapon.

There is a lot of good advice following my initial post. What I would emphasize though is that you refrain from using handloads for self defense unless it is an absolute necessity. I agree that hardcast wadcutters and SWC are a wiser selection than swaged, but to go that route you are talking either boutique ammo or handloads.

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Judge control not gun control!

Not following how a +p offering such as the federal HST is also “low recoil”.

I have seen the pics of the HST on luckygunner site. But that is only in geletin. I have some doubts what that bullet would do if it hit a rib.

As stated above most likely will be close distance to center of mass where there is sternum and plenty of ribs. Seems like hard cast might smash and bust the bone and the bone will do further damage, as well as whatever additional penetration the hard cast continued through. The HST may just “splat” and end up with little more than a nasty surface wound. Or is my concern invalid?

I think you’re worrying too much

get some HST, PDX, Gold-dots or Golden sabers.

load em up and and you’re good to go

.

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NRA Life
USPSA/IPSC

I wouldn't use a factory loaded target wadcutter. Too light. A stiffer reload would be in order.

I am leaning, and will probably have to buy both and try these:

1) Buffalo Bore semi-wadcutters. Paul Herrel video in meat seemed pretty reasonable.

2) Remington Golden Saber 125+P. Little concerned of jacket separation in some cases as they are not bonded.

I suspect point of aim and point of impact, from what I understand are usually more often regulated to 150-ish grain, rather than lighter weight bullets. So only shooting will determine that.

These are for my wife and daughter. Wife has 642 and daughter has LCR. Wife doesn’t seem too recoil sensitive. Daughter has not yet shot enough to determine her sensitivity. The LCR is actually 357 version so it is a few ounces heavier than the 38 version which can only help with recoil.

Two other possibilities is the Remington ultimate defense. And Hornady critical defense. At least these seem more available locally than the Buffalo Bore offerings.

Load the gun with full-wadcutters, and have semi-wadcutters or jacketed flat nosed or jacketed hollowpoints for the reloads.

Lucky Gunner Labs recently tested 38 special and 357 Magnum.
Take a look at the results some 38 loads do expand and have enough penetration to pass the fbi test. Tests were preformed with 2 and 4 inch revolvers.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

I've used either the older, hotter Remington version of the FBI load (158 grain LSWCHP +P) or the Buffalo Bore standard pressure but ballistically identical rendition, in both two- and four-inch revolvers, for twenty years. I'll stick with them. The FBI load has proven itself countless times on the street for decades. I did carry Remington 125 grain +P Golden Sabers for a while, but prefer the 158 grain stuff.

The thing I keep in mind is that the odds against my ever being forced to use a gun to defend myself are enormous; but if I do, heaven forbid, it will be up close and nasty, with little worry about under- or over-penetration.

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Oh well, what the hell.

I think the 130 gr HST is one of the best loads going.

It seems to expand in most published gel tests, and if the hollow cavity fills and doesn't expand, it looks like it would act as a wadcutter.

If you have to use lead......

back in the pre-70's the LE used a 38 with a 4" barrel and their target ammo was.....
a 148gr HBWC that did 850fps and a 158 Lfn that did 804fps.
There was also a hi-vel 158 lead wc that some had that did 930fps.

These loads were before the Win. 158 FBI load came out a few years later.........
that did 951fps from a 4" K frame.

If your SD weapon is a 1 7/8" snub nose...........
lead is not your best choice for a good SD loading, with all of todays
new and improved style bullets from Barnes to Bonded style bullets.


However, being happy with the ammo that you select and carry
is a good thing............

Go heavy or go home...

The Rebirth of the 200-grain 38 Special Super Police Cartridge

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Richard

I use Federal 130gr HST +P. But they do not recoil like +P ...
They expand well .. But ... are not the most accurate load out there ....

If I went to 148gr LWC ... Underwood would be my choice...

Gel test expansion is interesting. And as long as the bullet hits soft tissue is relevant. However what happens to those pretty expanding bullets (in gel) when it smacks into a rib or other bone? I suspect it will not penetrate beyond the rib. And thus will NOT be effective at stopping the threat.

If shooting center of mass, there is the sternum, plus one hell of a lot of ribs covering I would guess close to 50%, if not more, of the entire center of mass area. Meaning that half of the bullets are likely to hit a bone or rib.

That being the case, it would only seem reasonable for a 5 shot revolver, that the precious few rounds you have need to be effective. It is not logical, nor reasonable TO ME to “guess” what terminal performance you will get out of half of only 5 shots.

It does seem reasonable to think that if half the shots will hit bone, that you want to have some assurance the bullet will continue to penetrate after hitting the bone and do some significant damage and blood loss. Shattered broken bone “shrapnel” will in itself will help in that regard. Decapacitation of a threat is either/both the sappong of the will of the threat and they choose they have “had enough” and decide to stop. Or the threat is stopped by blood loss (center of mass, NON central nervous system hits).

This is what keeps me coming back to semi wadcutter.

I will ask this. Are the labeled standard pressure Buffalo Bore 158 semi wadcutter safe to shoot out of a S&W 642 which is rated for +p. As the velocity and common knowledge is that BB ammo is loaded “hot” and the std pressure seems to produce similar velocities as most other manufacturers “+P” offerings.

Has any third party “lab” verified that BB ammo does, in fact, meet SAAMI standard pressure limits?

I suspect BB loads their ammo, one standard deviation below the max upper limits of the SAAMI specification, and many +p offerings are in the lower portion of the +p saami sepecification range. However I have no way to prove my hypothesis.

If my hypothesis is correct, then the 642 would be safe to shoot. The BB std pressure ammo. Whether my wife can tolerate the recoil is another issue altogether. But I want to first be safe.

I just happen to have some 175 grain swc's all cast up and lubed and ready to be loaded. Time for some experimenting...….

Full Wadcutter Bullets, cast from the NOE 360-160-WC-PB mould , 160 grains , pushed to 900 fps work a lot better than a 148 HBWC at 750 - 800 fps.
Hit harder and shoot to my 637's fixed sights...
A extremely accurate bullet with several different powders.
Works for me !
Gary

I'd run these, though I'd prefer a bit hotter of a load.

38 Special 150 Grain Lead Wadcutter – Underwood Ammo

There was two recommendations for underwood wadcutters.

What specifically makes this wadcutter preferred over other manufacturers?

Interesting. I live in WI where they make this ammo!

Article says from snub only like 540 fps velocity. That seems pretty low to me. Again article talks about soft tissue. What bappens if it hits bone? Is the higher weight make up for loss of velocity? Momentum is mass times velocity squared. So momentum is dramatically affected by velocity and only marginally affected by weight(mass).

But $30 for 50 rounds ($0.60/ round) isn’t horrible price these days for defensive ammo. All the premium SD ammo seems to be somewhere near $0.80 to $1 a round.

There is another test of the new Federal 130gr HST +P load that was
shot at ten feet with three rounds into a (4G) Heavy clothing covered Gel
that averaged 846fps with 207 ME, bullet Dia. at .617" and penetration 11.75".

Missed 12" of penetration by, .... ]..[ ....that much.

Semi-wadcutter hollow point would be my choice. Hopefully coated, but lube in groove is fine, too.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Just remember that in the old days when cops carried revolvers and stubbies were carried as backups the standard snubbie load for many was the "wimpy" swaged lead HBWC. Maybe this was because these "wimpy" loads had developed a reputation for effectiveness.

Stay with factory ammo in your carry piece. My recommendation for factory wadcutters is Winchester as most reports I've read state that it has the highest velocity.

There used to be a retired detective working at our local gun store. He had served our local force most of his life. I got to know him and learned that he been in more than one armed confrontation. I asked him what ammo he carried. His choice was 158 grain lead round nose in a Model 649. Amazed at his reply, I asked why. He felt that bullet placement and penetration were the two most important factors in solving a problem with his revolver. He also stated that the round nosed lead bullets were better for reloading with speed loaders which he routinely carried.

Maybe watch this? His tests make a lot of sense to me.

My EDC revolver I use 148 gr wadcutters. My reloads (on a strip) are round nose, for ease of loading. I figure I can run away by the time I've shot those.

From my perspective, Underwood is a brand I trust, having shot a fair amount of their ammo. They also make ammo designed for hunting or personal defense, so I would expect their wadcutters will be hotter than most target oriented loads. The Underwood 44 SPL rounds I chrono'd were actually slightly hotter than advertised, which is rare these days. Finally, their prices are much better than Buffalo Bore who makes similar quality ammo.

BTW, they also offer a military discount and regular sales if you subscribe to their email list.

His statements are exactly in line with all the FBI research I have read, which is why they are switching back to 9mm. A FMJ placed well will stop a bad guy every bit as effectively as a JHP, maybe more effectively if the JHP fails to fully penetrate due to its expansion.

I too use several offerings of Underwood... I use their 10mm & 357 Sig ....
They produce high quality ammo , and they roll'em to their full potential..

My Uncle retired from LE .. his primary carry was a S&W Model 10 .. loaded with 158gr LSWC his personal BUG was a S&W 49, loaded with 148gr LWC ...
He never had to use ethier in his career.. (35yrs) He was proud of that ...
He was very good shot with either revolver ...

I missed that about the velocity; it does sound pretty low.

I have never used this ammo; I used to carry the original WW 200 grainers in a 3" HB model 36 when I lived in Miami.

Never ran one through a chronograph but they gave a very satisfying "thump" whatever they hit.

Not very scientific, I know, but there you have it.

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Richard

Yes, but...they were effective compared to the department mandated lead round nose they were required to carry.

So the story goes, Jim Cirillo and others out of NY had little faith in the lead round nose and preferred the full wadcutters they were issued for practice. To circumvent policy, if there was a shooting they'd claim they had just come from the range and all they had was the wadcutters.

But the point is the wadcutters got their reputation against the best bullet tech of fifty years ago, not today's demonstrably superior offerings.

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Pickpocket

^^^

Modern demonstration how? Gel tests? These new bullets may look pretty in gel. But even the gel tests show most snubbie velocities have little to no expansion. Even many +p dont expand. Of those that do expand there seems little demonstrated performance on what happens when those offerings that do expand hit a bone.

Cirrilo etc have actual gun fight tactical demonstrated performance. How many demonstrated performances do we have on most any of these modern bullets? Maybe it is out there. But I have not been able to find it.

I have to agree. Much is made of how bullets have improved, but last time I checked all 9mm bullets weigh about the same and travel at the same speeds they always have. Hollow point expansion may be more reliable now, but how much does that matter (or help?!) when all the FBI research states that penetration and placement are the most important factors in stopping a bad guy.

This is a religious issue for many and has been hashed out a thousand times on this board alone -- as well as every other firearm board, gun store, training academy and bar stool in the land -- so not much point, but...

Gel tests are a valuable consistent medium in which to compare and determine likely performance. You're mistaken to assert that they show "most" snubbies produce little to no expansion; they demonstrate inconsistency in expansion, with greater dependability in the proven loads designed for short barrels.

It has been studied (at Brassfetcher) what happens when these loads strike bone, specifically the sternum; they usually plug and behave like ball.

Cirillo was working with what he had. If he were gunfighting today, he'd be using modern hollow points designed for the firearm he was shooting them out of -- because he wanted any edge he could get.

And the best place you can look to for "modern demonstrations", their results and implications is every police shooting of the last twenty five years, because modern HPs are all they use; there's a reason for that.

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Pickpocket

Since you cite the FBI's example a couple times in this thread, include that at the end of all their study, analysis and conclusions, they go with modern construction hollow point.

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Pickpocket

Sorry for being redundant, I get these threads mixed up sometimes.

You make an excellent point, but I would argue that an additional concern for an LEO is overpenetration. A police officer or federal agent is far more likely to get in a public shootout than I am, and both politically and ethically it makes sense for them to carry bullets that stop in their targets even if they are less effective because they penetrate less. The most likely threat I will encounter is in a parking lot or possibly a home invasion, and I'm not overly worried about overpenetration in those environs.

That said, don't get me wrong, I carry JHPs in all my guns, including my airweight 38. But I'm not at all convinced they are an improvement over a full-load wadcutter, especially with any bullet moving less than 1000fps.

I agree completely.

GS

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“Deus vult”

I just can't get excited about HBWC as a defensive round for myself or my wife. We both carry .38 snubs as EDC. There are just too many good choices out there for .38 snubs that outshine the HBWC. I favor Winchesters, 130gr standard pressure, Defend. (Part of train and defend)
Like a 148 HBWC, the recoil is manageable for me even in an airweight. Accurate enough for sure. Lucky Gunner rated it's expansion pretty good as well. FOr some odd reason if it failed to expand, it's going to act like the HBWC anyway.

I think at the end of the day HPs are preferred -- whether by LEO or anyone else -- for the crush and tear damage they cause tissue, but reduction in overpenetration is a consideration.

I'm a believer, too, in full wadcutters for defense, but skeptical about today's match loads specifically; I think they can probably get the job done (they same way most anything get, it's just a matter of degrees), but it's my understanding that the wadcutter loads the likes of Cirillo et al. used back in the day had harder lead and were loaded hotter (to imitate the recoil of their carry loads) than the off-the-shelf stuff of today.

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Pickpocket

I used to carry a .38 snub on hunting trips as a utility weapon in lieu of long guns. It was loaded with my warmish handloads, HBWC's loaded upside down. The only use I ever put it to was to dispatch an armadillo annoying me in a duck blind. The soft swaged HBWC punched through both armored shells and the dillo's mid-section, spraying entrails downrange. Impressive at short range. I'm sure the soft slug leaded the bore, tumbled and was not very accurate. Who cares? It worked.

There is a lot of difference between a Buffalo Bore hard cast double ended (or similarly loaded full wadcutter that produces close to 900 fps as compared to a target softer lead wadcutter at 650/750 fps! I carry the BB loads in my revolvers, with either the HP or full SWC lead or a good plain semi jacketed flat nosed bullet for my reloads. I also use the Speer Gold Dot for short barrels as reloads. The exposed bullets in these do make them a bit easier to reload than the full wadcutters. However, after years of practice at loading the full target wads two at a time, I became proficient and confident at reloading them from a loop loader. What I carry now is a six round ammo pouch made by El Paso Saddlery that is designed to hold those six rounds in three compartments separated by stitching that allow two rounds to be lifted by the cartridge rims from the pouch that does not fall completely open. With practice, this can be done more quickly than you might think!

For close range or intermediate range personal protection, I have full confidence in the Buffalo Bore loads from my short barreled revolvers. The longer full length SWCs or lead SWCHP bullets work well for reloads. Please understand the difference between a hard cast wadcutter loaded to produce 900 fps and the target wadcutter loads. There is a big difference!

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So long ... Ken

That sums it up well.

Presently, bullet expansion seems to be the most popular religion. Success is judged by the appearance of the fired bullet. How it relates to actually disabling an attacker is not scientifically known. Unreliable anecdotes are all we have.

We are now getting a lot of police body camera footage detailing police shootings. Perhaps someone will be able obtain all of the relevant facts for 'the' definitive study of bullet performance. My personal observation of these videos is that the results are all over the place. However, I don't have information on the loads used and bullet placement.

My own conclusion is to carry whatever you are confident with.

For the recoil-sensitive, a good combo is Federal Gold Match 148gr lead HBWC loaded in the revolver with Remington standard pressure 158gr lead semi-wadcutter in speed strips or speed loaders.

Standard pressure .38spl AND +P .38spl hollow points from snubbies have trouble meeting FBI penetration standards while also expanding. One or the other lacks. Even the high-tech +P new offerings are inconsistent. They really need a 4" bbl to become reliable.

Underwood and Buff Bore is high-quality boutique ammo. I have shot a bunch of both in several cartridges (.32ACP, .38spl, .44spl, .44mag). Not sure I would choose first their 150-158gr hard cast full wadcutters for defense against humans. I like more penetration in my SD loads than most, but those rounds are super-penetrative, like 32 inches or more in the usual gel tests. (More penetration than full magnum .357 or .44 JHP.) OTOH, they make great trail loads for dealing with tough critters--what I use them for.

Good luck.