Hey all, looking for opinions on the topic of jacket separation. I've got quite a few rounds of non-bonded Remington Golden Sabers in 9mm, .38 and .357, and I've seen tests where the jacket separates from the core projectile in test media. Depending on the round the jackets may peel off deep inside the target, drawing criticism from many. I just don't see how this phenomenon is really all that bad. If the projectile plows through 13, 14, 15 inches of the intended target intact prior to separation occurring, hasn't the goal pretty much been accomplished?

Yes it has done it's job. I sometimes wonder about the intent of some of these tests and the hype that goes with them. Here on the forum and elsewhere I've had discussions about Sierra's 30 cal. 165 HPBT Game kings not having exit wounds do to jacket separation. My thoughts are this, I've taken 60 to 70 deer with that bullet and yes sometimes I didn't get a exit. In all those times with a well placed shot I've never had a deer go further then 30 yds. and when field dressing it looked like someone set off a mini grenade inside.

I see it another piece of shrapnel flying around inside the body while the core continues onward.

I've examined a couple of 158 grain .357 JHPs taken from a deceased home invader. One from the Skull, one from the shoulder. One split into two big pieces and one small piece, with some jacket separation. The other had a smeared nose and part of the jacked peeled off and separated.

I don't know the basis of this, but I think it's generally considered to be better if the bullet holds together for better performance. Remington seems to have thought this, because all the Golden Saber bullets now have a core bonded to the jacket.

True, but I have to wonder if this was in response to public opinion or to actual performance results. Either way I don't feel horribly underarmed with the old design.

The thought on this came in large part from the work of Dr. Fackler for the FBI starting in the mid/late 80s. One has to read a lot of the fundamental literature (several times, in my case) to get enough background to really understand it. Remember the context - this research was based on certain perceived failings of the FBI's ammo during the "Miami" shootout (first problem was taking a handgun to a fight they had every reason to expect), and the testing is only intended to address defensive ammo for LE handguns. One of the most recent and approachable reads on this is the 4th Chapter of the 3rd edition of the excellent book by Urey Patrick and John Hall. Anyone who has any interest or need to know about the ballistics and tactics of personal defense with firearms* needs to have that book and read it regularly.

One should also search for Fackler's initial writings through the 90s, and then the writings of his main successor (Gary Roberts).You need to know this stuff well, long before you have to articulate the reason you shot the offender "so many times" - one should expect that a motivated assailant will have to be shot a lot (3-8 times) to achieve the mission with most handguns - and that's with good hits.

*That is ANYONE who can foresee using a firearm for personal defense. While the book is direct at the LE context, much of the actual knowledge in it is applicable to civilian self-defense too, as most LE shootings are simple self-defense.

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NHI, 10-8.

I agree, but I do prefer when the bullet stays together. I changed to carrying HSTs in my 45, but I kept the GSs I have.

Hmm... from Chicago I see.. I hate to ask, but what happened when they didn't.

If a bullet has already accomplished its intended purpose then I see no reason to care if the jacket separated.

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Stay protected my friends.

The key word in that statement is "if".

Will the bullet penetrate enough after hitting a bone? Probably, but the next time you need to buy more self defense ammo why not buy something with a bonded core? There is no disadvantage to it. I wouldn't replace what you already have just to go with a bonded bullet myself though.

In ballistics gel pretty much all 9mm HP loads expand and penetrate deeply enough. One of the reasons tnoutdoors9 quit doing ammo tests is the results were all about the same. The same is true of Paul Harrell's 'meat target' tests. But unless there is a big price differential I would go with a bonded bullet because it might, in some special circumstances such as a really, really big attacker and the bullet hits bone first, have some advantages.

I have seen the above test plus Lucky's..............

Yes a bullet that stays in one piece is nice but if the main body
of a separated bullet penetrates 12" or more, I don't see a problem.

Like post #4 mentioned..........
they did after all, kill the BG.

It is not my intention to be overly anal retentive but (as a former LEO and instructor) I was taught (and taught) the the object of firing a round at a attacker was to stop that person from continuing the attack. For many years that was done with a simple lead projectile. Then came half jacketed bullets which worked a little better than lead. In the mid - 60s Hollow points (both lead and jacketed) were the latest greatest thing. Until the beginning of the 21 st century few hollow points performed very well. Fragmentation is, in my opinion, a good thing. If a bullet is not going to work like the pictures say it should then the more objects flying around in side the carcass the better the chance of stopping the encounter quickly. As with real estate, defensive shooting is all about: Location, Location, Location!