Given the exact same velocity, let’s say 1300 FPS, which buckshot pellet would be expected to penetrate the most, especially at longer ranges?

00 buck: 54 grains, .33” diameter
000 buck: 70 grains, .36” diameter

Thoughts?

-Jay

For penetration Mass rules, so I would expect that 000 will penetrate deeper. However from a practical standpoint if you were to shoot a Deer the difference in penetration will have no real difference on the effect, both rounds will kill a Deer. I iwll also point out that the 00 may provide for a quicker kill because the increased number of pellets will cause more wound paths and more bleeding. Thus the reason the 00 will prove very easy to find and the 000 nearly impossible to find. BTW I prefer #1 buckshot for a defensive load because it features sixteen 32 caliber pellets instead of the 9 pellets in a 00 load.

The ballistics of plain lead spheres have been well known for over 200 years of muzzle loading.
Since the mass goes up as the cube of the diameter and the geometric cross section goes up as the square of the diameter, the larger sphere always has the greater force and penetration at the same speed. Period.

However, there is a practical side to your specific deer hunting question in that 00 buck will shoot all the way through a deer's soft tissues. I agree with Scooter that smaller #1 buckshot has a more devastating effect from more wound channels, provided you hit the target with the full load. When I was in VA, that's what I used hunting on Camp AP Hill, which has thick cover and typically close shots.
Trying to shoot buck shot at too long range usually results in poor hits as the pattern spreads out. You can literally shoot all around the target.

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Science plus Art

I have my HD shotgun loaded with #4 Buckshot. It has 24 projectiles of just about 25 Cal at over 1200 fps. It will ruin anyone's day lol. There is nothing wrong with #1 Buck either, I just like #4 Buck better.

For deer I would probably stick with 00 Buckshot because like said above, mass aids in penetration. Some jurisdictions don't allow the use of Buckshot because some hunters try to take deer at distances behind the capability of the round. Of course that results in injured and or lost deer, unacceptable.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Try several ammos and pellet sizes in your shotgun at 25 yards and 50 yards against a patterning board (homemade would be fine). I'd go with what patterned best. Pellet size (within reason) and actual penetration may come down to nothing more than an academic matter of little consequence. While some like to obsess over these things, it's not necessary. Testing in your own gun takes some time, effort, and expense, but you'll know what works.

The literal answer is 000B penetrates deeper / farther distances . But the marginal difference isn't really an important factor .

The meaningful statement is : " 00 Buck has more than enough penetration for either deer or defense , out to far enough away that the patterns are the Limiting factor, not the penetration .

Hunting four or two legged animals? Outdoors or indoors? I have used a shotgun for hunting deer and for that we used 00 Buck. In the Corps I was trained as a Combat Shotgun Instructor for a Fleet Antiterrorist Security Team. We used OO buck for the first couple of rounds in the magazine and then slug. Slugs were used for anything over 25 yards to 100 yards. Seems to me the same combination would be good for deer too.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I'm interested in a defensive aspect. Thanks, all!

In my house with folks that I hold near and dear, I would use birdshot for the first one or two shots, then go to heavier loads. Over penetration of walls must be considered, unless your interior walls are made out of cinder block.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Buckshot is a terrible thing for deer....too close and it makes a mess, over 50 feet it is a non stopper . only a lucky pellet will penetrate enough to do anything but wound. It stops on any bone and does NOT shoot thru any deer. Now slugs are a different case and are very effective.

Probably closer to 500+ years of muzzle loading. When they needed a gun to pierce better plate armor they increased the barrel size, I think they understood the principle back then. 12 bore, .72 caliber was the common smoothbore musket caliber because it could pierce the thickest and best steel plate of those days, eventually becoming standard.

As far as OP's concern, #1 buckshot is considered minimum by many, because it is the smallest buckshot to penetrate 12 inches of ballistics gel at normal velocities. 00 buckshot has come to dominate because it is better for hunting deer and the fact that police/security/military that have to use it on barriers for whatever reason will find that the bigger shot does better against anything they need to penetrate. A 00 buckshot pellet will always be the better pellet if an officer has to pierce a piece of automotive glass to get to a bankrobber or other nefarious criminal.

People have successfully defended themselves with birdshot in 12 bore shotgun, but still I would not recommend that. #4 buckshot will work in many cases, but then again are we always focusing on number of pellets or effect of pellet? I would go with #1 buckshot not simply because of the experts and ballistics gelatin but simply because at some point individual pellet damage/penetration may be important, depending on choke and shot placement. I use 00 buckshot in my guns, I think it is the right compromise between pellet count and individual pellet terminal effect. 000 offers little terminal advantage at close range to justify the loss of pellet count, #4 reaches the point of the increase in pellet count not justifying the loss of per pellet performance in my opinion.

000 Buck, hands down.

Seriously, even the lowly .410 Bore can yield a good 17" of penetration in Ballistics Gel when fired from a Taurus Judge with a 3" Barrel travelling at around 750 Feet Per Second.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

That information regarding the buckshot is incorrect.

Most shotguns with some choke will do much better than that at well beyond 50 feet with several brands and loads.
Read up on Federal buckshot loads with the " Flite Control " shot cups. Amazing stuff, aparently.

Jay F.,
For a few days I had a late 1960s Ford Galaxy that I could shoot into as much as I wanted dropped off a short walk from my reloading presses. Fired perpendicular to the doors from 25 yards common 00 Buck from the large manufacturers never passed through the door. The typical impact only dented the door's exterior sheet metal.

On the other hand, from 5" a typical trap load, 17 grains of Red Dot under 1 1/8 ounce of 7 1/2 bird shot, punches one nice round hole through 2X6 boards firing through the the wide dimension. They might have been 2X8s. I forget which. It darn near cuts the board in half.

I would have to respectfully disagree friend. Buckshot is a horrible killer of Deer and larger critters so long as you do your job. What I mean by that is take the time and money to try as many sizes and as many different brands of Buckshot as possible in your Scrattergun until you find the load that patterns consistently and tightly and do not stretch the distance. I can only assume you meant 50 yards and in my humble opinion that too is too far. My Franchi constantly put 9 or 10 pellets into a paper plate at 35 yards. I restricted my shots to that distance and that was 3" magnum loads.
While working I and many others who worked in the Tacticle Patrol unit or the Stakeout unit used Buckshot in our shotguns as the distances were close and it was generally a very dramatic stop when utilized. Just an old guys thoughts.

What someone said about home defense..first two rounds...71/2 or 8 trap loads..after that in a closed environment..4 buck in either 2 3/4 (27 pellets) or 3 inch(34 pellets?) as for the 7 1/2 or 8s. If they can't see you they can't shoot you! Sounds cruel but well...you know what I mean. We responded to a wounded subject one night. The homeowner had shot the BG with a load of 7 1/2s. I can tell you...Even I almost felt sorry for the BG....almost

That was my statement. Up close birdshot will hold a tight pattern, and will make a pretty fair sized hole. Hopefully, by the time it has gone through a couple of layers of drywall ( most walls are two layers thick), it won't do much damage on the far side. Train family members to get low and behind something in an emergency (be it weather related or intruder related.). In my house with just my wife and I in the house, I will get her on the side of the bed away from the bedroom door (with myself). I will then cover the door with a weapon while calling 911 on my cell (and my neighbor, who is a Deputy Sheriff).

Get all in the house aware of any contingency plans and be prepared to implement them. Be a Boy Scout, "Be Prepared".

I was trained (and trained others) to use a shotgun as an offensive weapon. "Go Hunting" for the bad guys. As I get older, I don't move as well or neither am I as quick as I once was. So my plan is fort up until the Calvary arrives.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I think we said about the same thing except I should have put the distance , not at 50 feet, but at about 100 feet.{buckshot} After that on deer sized animals the effectiveness gets real iffy {YMMV} Even at close range , I would not use it on Bear {ever}. Dog size animals I still like the 100 foot rule. I have no idea how far it is effective for people, I have only used it on animals. {BTW when I said it makes a real mess up close...it does, very deadly , very quick and very messy}

Truth! 60 Yards with the new Shotty Premium Ammo is the buckshot range I think I read and certainly well beyond 50 feet...

Just to clarify:

If you are using domestic factory ammunition, the actual pellet diameter and weight of the pellets of whatever size designation will be less than industry nominal. Most 00B currently loaded will run .315" to .319" and less than 48 grains. Yes, a few brands have pellets running somewhat larger. All #1B will fall under .290" with most closer to .285" and less than 35 grains.

I have yet to measure a 000B pellet from a domestic factory round that measured over .35".

Yes, most domestic buckshot ammo is better than ever, but we should be aware, the improvements brought about with shot cup wads and buffering have come at the price of a general reduction in pellet diameters.

Rock quarry has the answer. Pattern shoot all of them at whatever range your interested in. That’s the only way to find out what your gun shoots best at those ranges.
What works for one won’t necessarily work for another. Even the same model.
Just have to shoot it and see.

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“Look life in its iron face”

You speak, but you have little or no experience with buckshot and deer. With a good choke and quality shells it's a 50 yard killer(deer) all day long. This answer comes from one who has used buckshot on deer for 50 years. OO's will bust bones and do complete penetration of the body cavity. I REALLY don't believe you've ever shot a deer with buckshot.

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S&W Accumulator

I just watched several of the Paul Harrell videos on shot for defense, today.

Amazingly, bird shot is just as adequate as 00 buckshot ,, at 7 yards,,

Paul has several great videos showing the actual results on his design of a DIY target.

Pork is used for pectorals, and then pork ribs, then oranges for lungs,, ETC,, you get the idea,,

I would trust birdshot at 7 yards,, but, I keep 00 buckshot in my shotgun, as my home defense area is WAY further than 7 yards.


Paul does an excellent job of justifying his statements,,

I was amazed how far 00 buckshot could be effective,, and he was using a cylinder shotgun, IIRC,

He even recently made a video of wax poured into birdshot shotgun shells,,
That gave interesting results.

I also watched his video on using a 5.56 for home defense,,
I stopped cleaning my 5.56 AR to type this post,,

Well,, back to the rags,,

My nephews have a 1,000 acre farm in Virginia,, they organize BIG hunts to control deer population, and for most of a half century, hundreds of deer were killed per year, with shotguns.

Their research found that both 2 3/4" and 3" magnum 00 buckshot were only allowed to be loaded with an identical maximum charge of powder.
The 3" shells were then loaded with more pellets, because the shell was larger.

Well, guess what? if both 2 3/4" and 3" shells have the same amount of propellant,
but,,
the 3" shell is pushing a heavier weight (higher quantity) of pellets,,
the 3" magnum shells resulted in the pellets going slower.

So, they found the distance that a 12 gauge shotgun was effective was GREATER with the 2 3/4" shells.

The higher speed of the pellets trumps having more pellets.

The word MAGNUM does not make the shell better in all cases,,

On another note, I was with my neighbor, when he killed a buck at 80 paces (yards) with a custom choked shotgun.

The man shot some gun EVERY weekend, he knew his guns, and what they could do.

You are correct.

For all time the FASTED 12 ga buckshot load made by Win/Rem/Fed is/has been the plain ol 9 pellet load.

It's amusing when you see someone babbling on about something they obviously have no clue about.

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S&W Accumulator

Very true. I recall a coyote that ran right through a pattern of 12-gauge 00-buckshot at about 50 yards. I think he learned how to do that from a roadrunner!

Back to lead ball ballistics:

Assuming an actual nominal .33" and 54 grain weight under the 00B moniker.

Full power 2.75" 12 gauge, 00B nine pellet rounds are rated at 1325 fps, 3" 00B 15 pellet rounds are rated at 1250 fps.
(Note: All industry shotshell velocity readings are taken 3 feet from the muzzle of an industry 30" test barrel.)

Running those figures though the online Round Ball Ballistics Calculations for Muzzleloaders, (set at a seasonal 40F), gives the following results:

A 2.75" nine pellet 00B load starting at 1325 fps will have a remaining 50 yard velocity of 936 fps.

A 3" fifteen pellet 00B load starting at 1250 fps will have a remaining 50 yard velocity of 912 fps.

The starting difference of 75 fps dwindles to 24 fps at 50 yards.



Like all multi-pellet shotgun applications it comes down to pattern density and adequate penetration.



Also, according to a University of Iowa study, the average step length of a 6 ft. male is 2.5 ft. or 30 inches. That would make "80 paces" equate to just over 66 yards.

Interesting.

We were told to carry #4 buck on duty. I have continued that into retirement. Never used it while working but here on the ranch I was able to kill five decent size hogs with one shot. After I shot they all fell down. I looked at the shotgun like WTH! That being said, a test article I recently read has #1 buck on top for self defense.

Many of the local sports prefer 00B for feral hogs, seems to work fine for them. I have never shot anything living using 00B. My personal feeling is that for home defense use, #2 or #4 birdshot is the best choice as the distance will be short (inside 10 yards), outer clothing will be easily penetrated, and over-penetration of walls or ceilings will be minimal. Some years back I saw a dead body that got that way from getting shot with a single birdshot load to the chest at close range. It was gory.

My favorite buckshot hunting load:

12 Ga, 3" Mag. - 3 - .600" Hard Lead Alloy Buckshot @ 1100 fps.

No penetration questions.