Guys I am just carious why the Underwood Xtreme Defender is not as popular as HST or Gold Dot. If you look a the data sheet, it performed much better than any HST

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/b21...=1574282100870

All these trick bullets are snake oil. ER doctor and medical examiner can't tell what kind of bullet made the hole. Shoot real bullets.

if you read the link it had many ballistic experts prove otherwise, the RIP bullet was a gimmick however

No proven track record of use to effect.

I like light and fast, but I think there is a tipping point where too light is not good.
Theses X bullets are fast, but not rifle fast. And what happens when they hit bone?

They may be good in a lever action shootin varmints?

IMHO once you get past the FMJ vs hollowpoint....... you're splitting hairs..... at a large $$$$$ cost per round.

Gold Dot is fine by me.......a fast 9mm double tap.....totally eliminates the possibility of a "one shot stop"

I respect whatever self-defense ammunition someone chooses to carry, recognizing that it is a highly personal decision involving the use of lethal force, which should never be undertaken lightly.

That said, I think the reasons the Underwood Xtreme Defender rounds are not more popular are, simply, cost and unfamiliarity with them. There are good SD choices out there for less money, to be sure.

Personally, I have chosen to use this round myself in 380ACP and 9mm because I am convinced by the ballistics testing that it is the most lethal round I can buy in those calibers. I want to maximize the lethality of these lighter calibers because if I have to defend myself, I want my best chance of success.

Yes, they are more expensive, and I train mostly with ball ammo and only very occasionally run the Underwood, just to insure function and to be familiar with the round otherwise. To me, spending $1.50 or so per round is not an issue, considering what is at stake.

I do not believe these rounds are "snake oil" or gimmicks, obviously. If others dismiss them as such, so be it. People make their own choices, based on their own criteria, and I have no issue with that.

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

I as of Wednesday Dec 18th have dropped the extream defender, I had to dispatch a bobcat on the property here and I had 65gr extream defender in the G19, just what was in the gun as my carry ammo.... 2rds to the shoulder area threw n' threw the last to the CNS which finaly did the job... all went right threw, kinda made me nervous after that... if I ever got into a defensive situation I dont want over penetration, switched to controlled fracturing and 147gr T series...

No more snake oil for this guy...

Granted a Bobcat is different than a human and bullets hurt no matter what, if I can eliminate one extra step to think about like over penitration in a defensive situation, well I'm going to try my best...

Just my opinion..

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This is the way....

<smh> I knew I should have watched that ballistics video long enough to see the comparison simulating bobcat penetration.

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

Haha.... I like what Clint Smith says, "I'm not concerned what a bullet does to a block of jelly"...

Bullets hurt no matter what.

I My self would like to personally like to do some more testing to further my opinion on the round.

Just my thoughts respectfully sir.

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This is the way....

High cost, little data on how effective they are in real world self defense cases, concerns the light weight and sharp bullet edges might reduce reliability and a long history of over hyped wonder ammunition that did not live up to its claimed performance.

If it was just a matter of buying one twenty round box a year cost would not be a big deal. But I would want to fire a couple hundred rounds without any failures before I trusted it. I think it will work fine in most quality handguns but the light for caliber bullet weight and unique profile might cause reliability issues. That Underwood typically loads their ammo hotter than larger companies might also affect reliability.

I am not nearly as cynical as "bullets are bullets" Univibe but understand where he is coming from. In the 35 years I have been a gun enthusiast I have seen a lot of wonder ammo that did not live up to its hype in real world shootings. In the early 80s Silvertip ammo was being promoted as the bullet that expanded so well that caliber no longer mattered. Gun writers like Mas Ayoob advocated it frequently. Then in 1986 four LE agents died in a shootout when the quick expanding Silvertips did not penetrate deeply enough into the criminal with a rifle that was shooting at them. Ooops. The Glaser safety slug also got a lot of publicity in gun magazines around the same time. By the late 80s and early 90s the main stream media started picking up on ammo with names like Black Talon and I read ridiculous claims like it would stop and kill someone even if you missed so badly you hit them in the leg. After a few decades of wonder ammo that more hype than anything else it is pretty tempting to just say meh and move on when the latest new thing shows up.

Hollow points offer a real advantage over FMJ once you get to 9mm levels of power or more. And not all HPs are equal. It is usually not a big difference but some perform better than others. I have settled on GoldDots because they test well and far more importantly have a proven record in police use. They are made by a large manufacturer that has total control over the combination of bullet, powder and primer because they make them. And they do not sacrifice even the slightest bit of reliability by loading as hot as possible to gain the title of most powerful ammo available in YouTube tests.

If the price comes down and the XD ammo proves itself to offer a statistically significant advantage in actual use I will switch to it. Depending on how big of an advantage, if there is an advantage, I might even pay a premium for it. But for the foreseeable future I am going to stick with regular hollow point ammo.

Advantage: they don’t rely on velocity to do their damage, and the indeed do damage.

Disadvantages: expensive, and the two boxes I tried had several with primers that took multiple hammer blows to set off.

I prefer to carry loads with a proven track record in actual shootings, so my preferences are currently Gold Dots or HST. I also prefer medium to heavy bullets, as they seem to get the best balance between expansion and penetration.

Until the more exotic ammo gets some real-world results, I'll stick with proven loads.

These solids penetrate too much and don't cause a permanent wound cavity in real living things like they do in gel. No doubt they do more damage than FMJ but they are almost too light for woods carry/penetrate too much for city carry.

I keep a couple mags of Extreme Penetrators loaded up in 10mm, but they are really just backups to my hardcast woods carry. Wouldn't want to use em in a crowd. Would rather spend less money on a better bullet.

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SWCA 3563
10mm aficionado

Exotic bullets have been proven to make cool keychains, but not much else. Stick with a good bullet with a track record. I like Golden Saber, Gold Dot, Hydro Shok and Hornady.

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213th FBINA

You have the best answers: expensive and they haven't been studied in actual defensive use. I carry them because I want penetration. They are of at least as good manufacture quality as the top manufacturers' ammo. I think they are best in calibers where penetration with other types of ammo has proven to be insufficient, i.e. .380.

Not sure you can compare a bobcat to a human but your point is valid in that a bobcat would be more of a true test than Ballistic gel. I think the FBI has it, if the bullet can penetrate 12 to 18 inches in gel, it will do its just going through connective tissue and bone.

You now have me convinced maybe I need to go back to HST 147gr but for winter carry I would rather go with the Underwood extreme defender only because it will not clog up like a Hollow point.

FWIW, St. Paul, MN, police have been satisfied with the 147gr HST, and it gets really cold there with people wearing heavy clothes. It's my 9mm carry round of choice year-round.

How many gun shops stock Underwood ammo? Doubt you will ever find it at Walmart (before they stopped selling ammo), Cabela's, Bass Pro, or any other sporting goods chains. Limited availability and lack of use by law enforcement typically means it will remain boutique ammo.

I have never taken it seriously because it's an off-brand company that decided to market with a misspelling, presumably to impress people who are impressed by such "edgy" business. Based on that choice by the ownership, I made the assumption that their engineering department was to be taken equally seriously.

I mean, as long as there's ammo out there by proven companies that works as advertised (and there's a lot of it), why go chasing something from an unknown company that's marketed in a dubious way?

Edited: I just downloaded that pdf and I'm laughing my rear off. "Sanitized version UNCLASSIFIED" - where's the section about the selling the Brooklyn Bridge to the "several Federal, State and Local government agencies as well as security teams, contractors and ballistics experts" who were involved? Guys, I've seen real-deal stuff along these lines, and this isn't it. Thanks for the laugh. (Did you see the typos in there? You think they might have had an editor clean up the report while they were "sanitizing" it. What a hoot!)

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Now go make God proud...

I've said this before, and gotten flamed for it, but here goes:

Pistol bullets "stop" people two ways. (1) disruption of the brain or spinal cord, and (2) depressurizing the circulatory system. (There are three others, namely lung collapse, infection, and lead poisoning, but they're not relevant to self defense).

That's it. If a bullet, no matter the size, no matter the weight, no matter the shape, hits a big vessel, the bad guy is shut down quickly (but not instantly). If not, then not.

Energy, "stopping power," all that is beside the point. It either depressurizes the bad guy, or it doesn't.

The problem with the mouseguns is not expansion, it's penetration. A .22LR or a .25 ACP can bounce off a skull, rib, or sternum and just not go deep enough to get to the vitals.

The midrange service calibers: .38, .357, 9mm, .40, .45 ACP have enough penetration to get to the vitals with substantial reliability.

The big magnums do, too, but they cost you recoil, gun size, capacity, and ammo cost, for no real gain. A .40 hole in a heart does the same effect, whether made by a .40 bullet going 950 fps, or the same bullet in a 10mm going 1300 fps.



Look at bullets that have actually killed people. Handgun bullets, even "premium law enforcement" bullets, even one shot out of magnum revolvers, frequently fail to expand. They look smeared and chewed up, but you seldom see the lead mushrooms and flowers in the bullet ads.


Exit wounds are almost always difficult to distinguish from entry wounds, on first glance. They typically are a bit larger and more raggedy than the circular entrance wound, but you usually have to look close to see the difference. "Gaping Exit Wounds" in all but 5.56mm hits on extremities is mostly a myth.

SA Dove's shot on Michael Platt in the Miami FBI Shootout was a penetration failure, not an expansion failure. The 115 grain Silvertip went through Platt's upper arm musculature, entered the chest between the ribs, and ended up, expanded, about an inch from the heart. Had Dove been shooting FMJ, the fight might well have been over in 10 seconds, not four minutes.

Penetration and shot placement. That's 100% of the battle. That's why I carry 124 grain NATO for self defense. It will get there, be the bad guy a 140 pound meth head, or a 320 pound bar bouncer raging on steroids. That's why I downsized my carry caliber from .45 ACP to 9mm. More bullets, less recoil, faster shooting.

Groo here
The why is cost and they look funny...
They will do what they say [now]
And for places that restrict HP or lead will do just fine.
THEY JUST LOOK FUNNY THOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think most purchases of defensive ammo are at retail locations. A box at a time. I don't think they have the retail distribution of the major manufacturers.

Erich, I too was bothered by the lack of specific references to the agencies and individuals involved in the testing that resulted in this report, which I gather was written by the company -- Viper Weapons Training in Houston -- that sponsored the endeavor. The title and format imply that this was some sort of official undertaking, and you are right, the document itself has editing errors and other shortcomings that detract from its reliability. Based on those things alone, one might be tempted to dismiss the whole thing as bogus.

I choose to view it alongside other ballistics testing done by a variety of sources -- Lucky Gunner, for instance, is one that comes to mind -- that undertake to compare and publicize results for different brands, calibers, and types of defensive handgun ammunition.

Your point is well-taken about the many proven rounds already in existence from known manufacturers, as is your view that choosing among those is reliable.

Still, I think keeping an open mind about new designs and innovations is valuable. In my humble opinion, the penetration qualities and the concurrent wound channel and tissue damage of the Xtreme Defender round, especially in the calibers and loadings where its velocity creates excellent to outstanding results compared to other rounds, are a strong point in its favor -- and in my case, the deciding factor.

I'm not a "magic bullet" guy, and I agree wholeheartedly that placement is king and penetration is queen. If I do my job and put my rounds where they need to go, I feel confident that the fluted, solid copper round will do its part as well or better than any other bullet, and I've chosen accordingly.

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

Because they're extremely expensive bullets which have yet to be proven as effective in human beings as they are in Ballistics Gel.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if they are indeed capable of producing the same wound tracks in a living creature as they do in gel, then it's only a matter of time before they are adopted by the military because they are supposedly capable of producing equal or better wounds than the otherwise prohibited expanding bullet designs.
So rather than spending more money on unproven bullets which really don't offer much over conventional JHPs, let the military and law enforcement experiment with them. If they're as good as they're supposed to be, then they will be adopted by the authorities.

Furthermore, a similar bullet design known as the Polycase/Ruger ARX Inceptor is available in hunting cartridges, and so far I've yet to hear a single hunter singing their praises. Granted that most experienced hunters who would actually know the difference tend to stick with what works rather than experiment with new ammunition, but there are always at least a few younger hunters who jump at the chance to test out the latest guns, cartridges, and bullets, not to mention hunting magazines who test out new stuff, so the fact that I haven't heard any praise for them makes me all the more skeptical.

Oh and by the way, this is coming from someone who initially bought into the hype, but merely cooled down later on and started thinking a bit more conservatively in regards to these new bullet designs, so I'm not one of those guys who makes bold yet entirely ignorant proclamations about how anything new is just a gimmick because apparently technology never improves, we've already reached the apex of human ingenuity, and there's nowhere to go but down now because; "They're makin' guns outta Tupperware these days!"
Ultimately, I lost interest when my brother bought a box of ARX Inceptors which consistently failed to feed in his carry gun which had been literally 100% reliable with every other ammo he had ever tested in it.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

My best friend is a trauma surgeon. He carries 45acp Liberty. If not liberty its still always a 45acp. And he has pulled out bullets for over 30 years. I just bought him a Governor. He loaded 410 in it and keeps it in his car. With that said I carry a LCP or a Glock 29.

I could post up a photo of a guy shot up close in the gut with a 12 gauge. Brutal. He saved him.

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Just hanging with my dogs

Im not going to argue if its a good bullet or not. I think we all know ball ammo in 38SPL, 357Mag, 45ACP and the list goes on did well for many years before hollow point ammunition.

The reason I believe this round isnt more popular is because old habits die hard. If youve bought the same XYZ self defense ammo for 5-10-15+ years.....it runs in your gun, you are comfortable with its performance why change? At the end of the day a bullet is a bullet and its better than a pointy stick.

Second reason is cost/availability. My local shop has some of the Underwood ammo line but they are $5+ or more than the other rounds, Winchester/Speer/Remington.

I bet the coroners can.

Well it seems a lot of folks don't like Underwood's Xtreme defender but all I can say I don't think I would want to stand in front of it. I think youtubers need to get out there and make more videos and do more tests. But regardless there has been many factory premium hollow points that has failed under real shootings so I dont' think there is a magic bullet. Will this deter me from using underwood as a carry ammo? My first chambered round is my HST 125gr Sig .357 and the rest of the 13 rounds is underwood 65gr .357 Sig. My spare mag is all HST 125gr so I think I am in good shape regardless and in spite of the criticsm, the Underwood will most likely behave like a FMJ and I won't have to worry about not enough penetration

A self-defense round must go bang every time. For this reason, I have been using Federal ammunition as this ammo is known for having soft primers, meaning they are more likely to fire even in the miniaturized, striker-fired guns that are the current rage.

In another running thread on Beretta handguns, I reported that my slightly modified Beretta left a larger and deeper primer indent with Federal primers than CCI primers. I'm willing to forego what may be the best self defense bullet in favor of a round that will always fire no matter what I put it in.

Regardless of which ammo you choose, satisfy yourself that the ammo will fire with 100% reliability in your handgun. If you have a tendency to flinch, you can deprive the striker of just enough momentum to cause a misfire.

Your use of language puzzles me. And I don't mean misspelling "through" as "threw.".

Are you saying the bullets killed the cat, but you're concerned about over penetration? I'm more concerned about the terminal effects on the cat. Did or did not the bullets prove quickly lethal?

The penetration would seem very desirable, had you shot a large dog, esp. lengthwise! You seem to have shot the cat, a much thinner animal, sideways. I'd be disappointed if the bullets had NOT given complete penetration.

Shooting feral dogs or hogs is more likely than having to defensively shoot a bobcat. Unless rabid or cornered, a bobcat seldom attacks people. It may kill and eat your pets, though.

Excellent points and some have complained that it penetrates too much but according to the FBI and other experts penetration is probably the most important to reach vital organs The Underwood 65gr in .357 sig functioned perfectly and was very clean.

....Golden Sabers and Federal HSTs are easily available at a good price, they are well rated and consistent. I don't have anything against Underwood, it's just not what I buy.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I doubt that the average ammo buyer in a gun store sees Underwood ammo a lot or knows about it. I don't know their prices, but if high, would also suggest that fewer people purchase it.

If harder primers are a concern and you like the Lehigh bullets, you can roll your own with new brass and Federal primers.

Since the bullet is solid copper (expensive) and machined (expensive) I doubt the price will ever be very low. I have reloaded the Lehigh bullets for training because it saves money. I haven't had any problems with functioning with the factory loaded or handloaded rounds. We shoot them in a Taurus PT 738 TCP and Sig P 365 pistols. I keep them loaded in my 5 shot revolvers as well.

I carry it in the original Lehigh Defense brand. My tests indicated adequate penetration and a nasty wound channel. I'm not surprised that the rounds went through a bobcat:

YouTube

Nope. Under oath they'll testify that they can't tell.

By the way, I've seen a ME photo of a RIP round that killed somebody. One of the tines separated from the base and depressurized the decedent. At least RIP worked that time.

The ammo companies are short stroking on all kinds of specialty ammo from Zombies to Turkeys. For. Years guys did very well with the premium loads from the big 3. People are impressed by a bullet that looks like a drill bit. It’s all hype as answer to problems that don’t exist. I worry more about the cost of a good quality pen. I like to limit myself to only shooting one bad guy a week. Hate to spend all the time on the paper work.

Exotic bullets sold in exotic gun shops....is the reason.
I have never seen any underwoods for sale in my usual ammo stores.

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S&W BG380, S&W 915 9mm

Walmart quit selling pistol ammo!

I wouldn't want to stand in front of a pellet gun either, but it isn't going to be my first choice for a self-defense weapon.

So, you carry a round of HST in the tube, and then 13 rounds of an unproven bullet, backed up by an extra mag of HST (?!?) What makes you think that you don't need to worry about having enough penetration with the Underwood? Light weight bullets don't have the momentum of their heavier counterparts, and have a tendency to not penetrate well.

Carry what you want, but it is all HST for me.

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Only a cold warrior

there was a guy on this thred that shot a bobcat and it penetrated petty well. I think its just a wait and see thing for me I guess

This is a misleading generalization. Penetration -- a function of several criteria, including velocity, bullet shape, and bullet weight -- is noticeably better with the solid copper non-expanding rounds. For my money, reliable penetration in carry calibers for which these work especially well is an important enough consideration that I switched from expanding to non-expanding bullets in 380ACP and 9mm.

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

I'll agree with this. The reason lightweight bullets got their reputation for shallow penetration was because of rapid expansion with JHP. For example, going by memory, a 115gr JHP +P in 9mm, one designed for rapid expansion, might only penetrate 10" in gel. It may cause more tissue damage, but may not reach deep enough for that damage to be effective.

A solid bullet, even a standard FMJ, is going to penetrate more deeply because there's no expansion to slow it down; it just zips through, unless it hits something like bone along its path. It's also why they're not a good choice for SD if overpenetration is a concern.

Vigil gets it. M4C thinks Univibe is a total guajolote for carrying Q4318 NATO FMJ in all his carry guns. Placement - penetration = failure.