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  #1  
Old 05-12-2020, 06:25 PM
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Default Sincere question for those who live and breath 9mm ...

I have had a 439 for about 25 years that I used as a range toy rather intermittently. In under a year, the number will grow to four. The Sig P320 Xcompact may become a carry pistol when I am legal, but in the meantime all will serve some form of range toy function.

That being said, looking at this from a carry ammo perspective, what is the benefit of shooting 124gr ammo versus 115gr ammo? One hundred fifteen grain seems to be more prolific than 124gr. How does nine grains affect bullet performance?

Asking because I am looking at developing one load for the range toys. Thanks for your advice in advance!
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Old 05-12-2020, 06:37 PM
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My answer is not 9mm specific. Different bullet weights will often have different points of impact from the same gun. So after picking a specific carry ammo (probably commercial JHP), I will shoot ammo with the same bullet weight at the range (probably home-loaded FMJ-RN).
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Old 05-12-2020, 06:45 PM
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Historically, the 124gr Truncated cone had the best stopping power - the Germans discovered this in WWI. The round was so effective, the allies accused the Germans of using expanding bullets. So there's that.

I prefer the 124 but it probably doesn't really matter. Nato 9mm specs reference bullets from 108 to 128 grains. Just pick a high quality bullet/ammo and see how it does in your pistols.
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Old 05-12-2020, 06:55 PM
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In general heavier bullets expand a bit less and penetrate a bit deeper. If you choose a good bullet or factory ammo with a good bullet I do not think it will make a big difference but the general trend seems to be 124 or heavier to emphasize penetration.

I quit reloading so at the range I use 147 grain factory FMJ. The heavy bullet knocks over steel plates better than the light stuff. And the truncated flat point 147 grain bullets leave cleaner holes in paper targets. But for carry ammo I use 124 or 135.
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Old 05-12-2020, 07:33 PM
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I've said this before on other threads (feel free to tune me out if you've heard this one before), but I prefer medium-to-heavy-for-caliber bullet weights. In 9mm, that'd be 124-147gr. They seem to give the best balance of expansion and penetration. The lighter bullets seem to penetrate less, with some exceptions (the Barnes all-copper 115gr HP being one of them).

This is probably more important with regard to barrier penetration. While civilians may not need to shoot through car doors or windows, in a life-or-death self defense situation your focus is going to be on the threat, typically your attacker's gun/weapon, and the hand(s) holding it. This means the bullets you fire in self defense may need to punch through your attacker's arms and hands before hitting the torso, and they still need adequate penetration to reach vital organs, vessels, and nerves/CNS.

But in the grand scheme of things, it's hard to say if the difference is significant in the real world. Being able to get solid hits is going to be more important than whether you're firing 115gr bullets or 124gr bullets.

My carry ammo of choice is 147gr HST. But if I had to use 9BP or 9BPLE, or 115gr Gold Dots, or any other 115gr JHP, I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Just my opinion.
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Old 05-12-2020, 07:51 PM
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Don't know if this matters but I have benched 115-124- and 147; and a 124 plated hp with N340 came out on top. I liked them so much I ordered 3700 on sale with free shipping. I have found my load for 9mm.

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Old 05-12-2020, 08:03 PM
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The standard USGI M882 9mm load uses a 124 grain FMJ bullet at close to 1200 ft/sec MV. There is a good reason for that combination assuming you are limited to using non-expanding projectiles.
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Old 05-12-2020, 08:09 PM
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Duty ammo is Hornady 9MM Luger +P 135 gr FlexLock® Critical Duty®, so I stick with that.
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Old 05-12-2020, 08:52 PM
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I can only speak from my own experience. I have two 9mm pistols, a SIG P320 compact, and a 1.0 Shield. In both, the most accurate FMJ round I fire is the Winchester NATO 124g. The advantage of the Win NATO round is greatest with the Shield. The NATO round is loaded to +P specs, and I'm guessing that the benefits of extra velocity are greater with the Shield's shorter barrel. I don't know how much the bullet weight has to do with it, but when I'm at the range shooting 9mm, I'm shooting Win NATO. It's affordable, too. Pre-panic prices were $9-10 per box of 50.
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Old 05-12-2020, 10:07 PM
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Practice;
any weight, lead , coated or plated in TFN or FMJ style.

SD;
A quality JHP
that you and the weapon likes and you feel will 100% save your life.
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Old 05-12-2020, 10:36 PM
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With today’s technology, I don’t think bullet weight matters as much as it used to.

My preference has always been 124 gr. Sometimes 115 +P+ because I can as my Glock 19 handles it very well.

Nothing scientific. Just my choice.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:57 AM
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I've been shooting 9MM a very long time, using ammo between 65 and 158
grain, but more 115 grain than anything else. In recent years, seems 124 grain has come to the fore with 9MM shooters. I doubt 9 grains significantly affects real world performance.

The 124 NATO seems a good all around ball round to me. I've used a ton of it. The Winchester version usually runs about 1200-1230 FPS in 5" guns for me, the IMI 124 NATO a little faster. Now our military commissions Winchester to produce the M1152 115 grain flat point ball load, at around 1320-1350 FPS in a couple of my 5" guns. So after spending considerable $$$$ to develop the 1152 load, does the military now think lighter, faster 115 flat point ball is significantly better than standard 124 NATO? I admit I'm lost on this one.
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Old 05-13-2020, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
My carry ammo of choice is 147gr HST.
Mine also. I like that it expands larger than the lighter choices, and still gets the penetration done. All my 9s feed it smoothly, and shoot it POA/POI.

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Old 05-13-2020, 07:09 AM
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I used to have a 39-2 and I currently have a 439. In both, 115 grain FMJ was the least accurate. Better accuracy was obtained with 124 grain FMJ ammo. Best accuracy for me came from 115 and 124 grain JHP. With 147 grain loads, FMJ and JHP seem to be about the same. With modern bullets, I don't see the need to hammer the aluminum receiver with +P, NATO, or +P+ loads. Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, and Winchester Ranger T in 124 or 147 grain standard pressure seem to do very well.
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Old 05-13-2020, 07:32 AM
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Pick a good hollow-point that works in your gun....... then practice practice practice..... with the cheaper FMJ of the bullet same weight.

There is no "magic handgun bullet" especially in 9mm or .38spl..... shot placement is way more important........ as to "one shot stops" .... I suggest a double tap!!!
And/or shoot till the threat is neutralized .... I don't "shoot to Kill" I shoot to stop the threat to my or my family's life or to prevent serious bodily injury.
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Old 05-13-2020, 09:41 AM
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In the thousands of rounds thru my Shield and full size MP 9’s; probably at least 95% has been 115gn. Occasionally trying 124gn.
For me, in the 7-10 yard range I’m usually shooting at, I never really noticed any difference for accuracy when using the 124. I’ll note I’ve never shot from a rest, shot into gel or any test options so my results aren't exactly scientific.
But as 115 usually has been a little cheaper and more available for me and i like to shoot (as this is a hobby for me) I just stick with the 115.
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:11 AM
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Good thread. Thanks for the lessons.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:00 PM
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In all 4 of my 9mm's the 124 grain truncated cone projectiles grouped best . All loads tested from a bench , indoor shooting range and shot at least 5 , 5-shot groups for each load ...some were tested more .

I tried : 102 gr. RN , 105gr. SWC , 115 gr. SWC , 115 gr. TC , 115 gr. RN .
120 gr. TC , 124 gr. TC GC , 125 gr. RN
147 gr. RN , 147 gr. TC and a 150 gr. SWC .

Several different powders tried and the accuracy champ was Unique powder the 124 gr TC GC sized to .357" .
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:06 PM
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I will stick to NATO FMJ 124grains ( by little, inside in the +P category) and commercial 147Gr FMJ (very accurate, the most accurate I´ve tried in so far in my Beretta 92FS with 5" barrel and a Browning Hi-Power 9mm!!!), for range use and self defense, I must say though, that in my Country we are only allowed to use this FMJ loads for self defense purposes; the advantage is that your range practice load will be exactly the same you shall be carrying!!!!...If you can afford it, try to practice at the range with the same ammo (JSP,JHP....) that you shall be using for defensive purposes ,this is a choice we do not have here, that´s why the .45ACP is the best caliber for self defense at close range with a close second 9mm (in special at longer ranges, more than 25yd) in USA you have many loads in different configurations to choose!!!....,and if you reload some more indeed!!!..
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Old 05-13-2020, 02:34 PM
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S&W 2nd and 3rd gen sights were regulated for 115 gr.

This is NOT just my opinion:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Printer View Post
I worked in R&D in the 80's and tested all our guns. Normally we shot them with factory fresh fodder. Rem.,Win and Fed. For 9mm we used 115. For .45's usually 230gr, 40's 180gr. From time to time we shoot all the bullet weights available to make sure there wasn't a problem.
Sometimes we would get a police dept that would specify a particular bullet weight. During the XM-9 trials (the 9mm gov sidearm contract) we shot some pretty hot stuff that was specified by the gov.
I also was tasked with setting all the sight heights on all our revolvers and auto pistols. Normally I shot 3 ten shot groups at 25 yrds. off a sandbag rest unless otherwise specified.
Somewhere here in the forum, awhile ago, I wrote a piece on how I set the sight heights. If you can't find it contact me and I let you know.
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Old 05-13-2020, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
In all 4 of my 9mm's the 124 grain truncated cone projectiles grouped best . All loads tested from a bench , indoor shooting range and shot at least 5 , 5-shot groups for each load ...some were tested more .

I tried : 102 gr. RN , 105gr. SWC , 115 gr. SWC , 115 gr. TC , 115 gr. RN .
120 gr. TC , 124 gr. TC GC , 125 gr. RN
147 gr. RN , 147 gr. TC and a 150 gr. SWC .

Several different powders tried and the accuracy champ was Unique powder the 124 gr TC GC sized to .357" .
Gary
Unique and V N340 have a lot in common. N340 is Vihtavuori's Unique but costs more and cleaner.

Last edited by 4barrel; 05-13-2020 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 05-13-2020, 07:56 PM
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Groo here
For range ammo,,, whatever is cheep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For carry, I tend to be old school.
Now and for the near future ,, Federal 9BPLE 115 gr hyshok +P+...
The pressures are not TOO much higher, the bullet and load are proven
the case is nickle and the primer and case mouth are sealed...
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Old 05-14-2020, 02:37 AM
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The 124 grain became the new “standard” grain of the 9mm because of the FBI specs. When the FBI developed their criteria for “effectiveness” of a round, the non-law enforcement world followed suit. Though if you look, the Border Patrol and Secret Service develops their own criteria and it usually differs from the FBI. But the FBI is well known and make their research more available to the public. Mass plays a part of how deep a certain round penetrates. Most JHP ammo is always trying to walk that thin line between expansion and penetration. The 124-147 grain JHP’s always penetrated well. It was the expansion that was the problem. Early on, the 115 grain was light enough to throw at higher velocities to force expansion. As ammunition manufacturers got better at bullet design, the bullets did not need to be that light. They could throw a higher grain bullet at slower velocities and still hit within that FBI protocol. The 124 grain splits the difference between 115 and the 147. Not a huge difference but enough to penetrate deep enough and expand well.

As for loads for your specific pistol, if you’re talking FMJ target loads, it really only matters what grain, bullet profile and powder charge is most accurate and doesn’t beat your pistol up more than necessary. Some of my pistols are more accurate with 124 grain and some prefer 147 grain.

Now defense loads, I’d say go with something that fits YOUR criteria. I say that because my criteria here in Georgia is wildly different from someone say in Kansas or South Dakota. Here I’m not worried too much about having a round to penetrate, potentially anyway, heavy winter clothing and other body parts to hit vital organs. Someone in a cold climate would probably factor that in. Rounds like the HST seem to do well regardless of grain or power. 124, 124+P, 147, and 147+P all penetrate within FBI specs and all expand pretty well. Some penetrate a little more or less than others. But they all do well enough regardless of barrel length as well.


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Old 05-14-2020, 03:20 AM
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Default I make my own....

My standard is 125 gr. coated SWCs for fun. I have 125 gr JHPs for defense. I just dig heavier bullets I guess. I've probably shot more 147 grain jobs than 115 gr. That gives me my most accurate load.
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Old 05-15-2020, 09:57 PM
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If I was only allowed to use a FMJ bullet for SD purposes............

I would try and cheat a little and see if I could at least find a JFP design to maybe improve my chances of stopping a threat.

Just FMJ is a real Bummer................
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Old 05-16-2020, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
If I was only allowed to use a FMJ bullet for SD purposes............
Nice sentiment shipmate. My sole problem with FMJ on the street is over penetration. Otherwise I would like it for SD, also.

I switch around between the various bullet weights. If they work in the gun I plan to carry and give me reasonable point shooting "groups" I'm good with any of them. I figure it's going to be up close and personal when the waste matter hits the whirling blades and they'll all work for the purpose if they're quality cartridges.
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Old 05-16-2020, 07:12 AM
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My EDC is a Sig P365 (+P rated) and my carry ammo choice is Speer 124 grain Short Barrel +P GDHP. They are not hard to control, give me about 1125fps out of the Sig's 3.1" bbl (chronographed) and hit POA = POI.

For practice I use American Eagle 124 grain standard velocity FMJ which shoots to the same point of aim as the Speer SD round. The FMJ by AE is a superb Range round and buying by case is so cheap I usually opt not to reload 9mm.
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Old 05-16-2020, 07:53 AM
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All really good information.
Whatever you use remember--Shot placment is what is most important!
All really useless if one cannot hit what you're shooting at.
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Old 05-16-2020, 08:36 AM
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Sincere question for those who live and breath 9mm ... Sincere question for those who live and breath 9mm ... Sincere question for those who live and breath 9mm ... Sincere question for those who live and breath 9mm ... Sincere question for those who live and breath 9mm ...  
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Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
I have had a 439 for about 25 years that I used as a range toy rather intermittently. In under a year, the number will grow to four. The Sig P320 Xcompact may become a carry pistol when I am legal, but in the meantime all will serve some form of range toy function.

That being said, looking at this from a carry ammo perspective, what is the benefit of shooting 124gr ammo versus 115gr ammo? One hundred fifteen grain seems to be more prolific than 124gr. How does nine grains affect bullet performance?

Asking because I am looking at developing one load for the range toys. Thanks for your advice in advance!

I don't "live and breathe" 9mm. But I find the 115gr more accurate in Lugers. Other pistols aren't so finicky., but then again not many are as accurate as the Luger.

Exemple:

Competition target. Distance 25 meters(27 yards).

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Last edited by Kurusu; 05-16-2020 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 05-16-2020, 11:15 AM
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Thank you for all of the recommendations and insight.

Please, allow me to share a little so you can get a feel for where I am coming from. Having been focused on rifles for about 40 years, I have expanded into pistols more seriously since having become disabled. Before becoming disabled, I dabbled in: bullseye (revolvers and my 1911), PPC (the ultimate revolver friendly game), and metallic silhouette. I have always used handloads.

Since becoming disabled, I still enjoy my rifles, but injuries and pain limit the positions that I can assume. Pistols allow a little more flexibility in positions. I tried an IDPA match or two, and the conditions were a bit too taxing and left a sour taste. Then, I participated in the Adaptive Defensive Shooting Summit, and gained instruction from fellow disabled shooters that could appreciate where I was coming from. I walked away from the Summit having learned two significant lessons: 1) my 439 was a handicap with first shot DA, and 2) from the perspective of a physically challenged shooter, a revolver COULD add to the handicap.

I left the Summit knowing that for carry and competition, the 439 had to be retired. Hence, the growth of the 9mm category in my collection. I already had a 9mm 1911 commander on layaway to be converted to 38 Super. I knew that I wanted to get a Glock 17 Gen5 so I could participate in the GSSF matches that I worked at my club. I left the Summit at the Sig Academy, having won a door prize Sig P320 Xcompact. Still waiting on a permit in order to pick up the Sig. Sorry for the sacrilege on the Smith forum.

Now, my dilemma is what to feed this growing family. I realize that it is mostly psychological, but I tend to make my shooting more seriously when I use ammo that I make. When I am legal to carry, the question remains, what will be carried? It could be a 3" S& W, the Sig, or a 1911 in the Lord's chambering.
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Old 05-16-2020, 12:04 PM
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the question remains, what will be carried? It could be a 3" S& W, the Sig, or a 1911 in the Lord's chambering.

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Nice problem to have.........

Yes, getting old or banged up to where you can't shoot like you did when younger, sucks.

Good luck on getting the new weapon.
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