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  #51  
Old 06-26-2020, 12:41 AM
Sheepdogged Sheepdogged is offline
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Originally Posted by Rammer Jammer View Post
Gel tests aren't the end all be all but Lucky Gunner testing basically came up with the results that there isn't much point in the hotter 357 Sig round.
YouTube
I am literally the source of the Luckygunner mentioning the study in his series of videos. He didn't know who Greg Ellifritz was until I mentioned him and his study. He even dismissed Greg Ellifritz saying he doubted he had a masters in public administration (which I set straight because he does, moreover he attended many of the autopsies personally). That's the kind of comments naysayers make as if it matters. These gel tests are also unreliable because of the Clear Ballistics gelatin they use. There is a reason why the FBI doesn't use clear gel, and there is also a reason they use one shot per block. The agency uses Gelita 250 Bloom Type A Ordnance Gelatin packaged in 50 lb bags as priced below:

When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?-screen-shot-2020-06-26-12-38-44-am-jpg


As an aside, Luckygunner's tests are restricted to ammunition that they carry (no Underwood or Lehigh Defense XD rounds are ever tested). I wouldn't use the Luckygunner as a source for anything other than fast shipping.
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  #52  
Old 06-26-2020, 01:31 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
My sentiments exactly. I don't see the point in carrying a 9mm Luger when I can carry the more powerful .40 S&W or .357 SIG in the exact same size firearm.

Folks can parrot the FBI's justification for downgrading to 9mm all they want, but their Ballistics Gel Testing is not the end all, be all, and actual human beings have bones which tend to be affected far more dramatically by bigger, heavier, and/or faster projectiles, not to mention suffer less deviation when they strike a hard object such as a bone, so I choose to carry something with more oomph.

Not to say that 9mm Luger isn't a capable duty cartridge, because it obviously is adequate for the task, I simply choose to carry something more because I can and to me the sacrifice of 2-3 rounds in the magazine is more than compensated by the increase in kinetic energy.
I agree with EVERYTHING you typed! I have several 9mm's, but prefer to carry one of my FS M&P .40's. I have several LE trade in 1.0 40 calibers. One of them has a factory S&W .357 SIG barrel in it. I sometimes EDC it with Ranger T-Series 125 gr. Gold Talons. They're like a Ranger T-Series 9mm +P+ on steroids.
So, yes, go in half with your buddy on the case of ammo. When you get them, PM me.
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  #53  
Old 06-26-2020, 01:54 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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According to the fort's records, even though men were shorter back then, the soldiers had to be 6 ft. tall minimum.
Hmmmm.....I recall a 5'8" minimum for almost all police departments but I never heard that Soldiers had to be 6' tall.

I think he made that up or mis-read something:
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Physical Standards In Relation To The Demand For Soldiers

Some physical standards have changed easily with the need for soldiers, which suggests that what may be portrayed as a soldierly characteristic may not be solidly rooted in combat necessity. Height is an example. European monarchs prided themselves on their tall soldiers; it was also convenient to have men of about the same height for drill and ceremony. Some eugenicists claimed that criminals tended to be shorter than the rest of the population (Baxter, 1875), and a retired military surgeon proposed that physical characteristics could identify future heroes (Foster et al., 1967). Thus, the minimum height for U.S. soldiers was 66 inches early in the nineteenth century and has progressively lowered, with the least stringent requirements (no minimum height standard during part of the Civil War) coinciding with national emergencies when new recruits were in greater demand (Figure 3-1). The Romans also imposed height standards on their soldiers, and the usefulness of this selection standard was questioned even then. Vegetius Renatus, a military philosopher, suggested using a more subjective visual appraisal of potential recruits, noting that "when all these marks are found in a recruit, a little height may be dispensed with, as it is of much more importance that a soldier should be strong than that he should be tall" (Baxter, 1875). When health screening capabilities were less advanced, height standards served a health fitness screening purpose; for example, short stature could reflect disease and poor physical development. Thus, even after careful review of physical standards during World War II, men less than 60 inches in height were "nonacceptable" (U.S. Congress, 1944). Today, the best rationale for current height standards is practical: to limit the range of sizes for uniforms, protective ensembles, and workspace dimensions. However, when other reasons are dismissed, commanders argue from anecdotal experience that short soldiers simply cannot carry the same load as their average-height peers (Davenport and Love, 1921).
Body Composition And Military Performance: Origins Of The Army Standards - Body Composition and Physical Performance - NCBI Bookshelf

Copyright 1992 by the National Academy of Sciences.


Sorry about changing the subject but sometimes you have to react to rumors....
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  #54  
Old 06-26-2020, 01:57 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Back to business....

FYI, Texas DPS Troopers often carried pistols in .357 SIG. Then they switched back to 9mm. It is what it is......

Texas DPS Switching Service Pistols for Troopers – NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth

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Copyright © 2020 NBC Universal Inc. All rights reserved
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  #55  
Old 06-26-2020, 02:30 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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I own two Sig 239s, one in 9mm and one in .357 auto. The .357 is very "whippy", the slide velocity is considerably higher than the 9mm. The muzzle flash and muzzle blast are noticable during the day, and at indoor ranges are very noticable making the .357 unpleasant to shoot more than a little bit. I am glad I have it, I have no intention of selling it, but I have not qualified with it since I originally bought it and have no intention of carrying it. It is definitely a very effective antipersonnel round, but it is difficult to find and expensive to buy ammo for it and I am unwilling to beat myself up to the extent that I feel comfortable carrying it. I guess I am just old.
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  #56  
Old 06-26-2020, 06:50 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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CDNN has recycled SIGs in 357 SIG. There are also 357 SIG barrels for various .40 Caliber pistols.

Geoff
Who notes the 357 SIG was invented to put a 125 gr .357 Magnum equivalent into a semi auto. The FBI had determined the 125 gr .357 Magnum to be the bestest ever pistol round. The SIG comes in about 200 fps slower.
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  #57  
Old 06-26-2020, 11:13 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
Back to business....

FYI, Texas DPS Troopers often carried pistols in .357 SIG. Then they switched back to 9mm. It is what it is......

Texas DPS Switching Service Pistols for Troopers – NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth

Copyright AP - Associated Press
Copyright © 2020 NBC Universal Inc. All rights reserved
Most police officers are carrying 9mm Luger these days, but I strongly suspect that that has more to do with the fact that 9mm ammo is significantly cheaper yet still adequate, not because more powerful cartridges offer no tangible advantages whatsoever.

Furthermore, I can't help but wonder how the officers themselves feel about the switch, because obviously they don't have any say in what they're issued. I've heard that a lot of officers were unhappy when they had to trade in their .40s for 9mms, often commenting on how they felt more confident carrying a .40 and how they resented that while guys who didn't have to put their own lives in danger had the most influence over what they were issued. I wouldn't be surprised if the Texas DPS Troopers feel the same.
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  #58  
Old 06-26-2020, 12:17 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer X View Post
It's budget. The cost to train rises with the cost of ammo.
Since when, did the US Government, worry about the cost of things ?? !!

Do you have that in writing?

Remember back, when they bought toilet seats................. ??
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Old 06-26-2020, 12:18 PM
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Following this thread..... made me wonder why we didn't see more agencies adopt the Sig 227 10rds of .45 vs 10 rds of .357 sig in the 229???????


Wike only lists two agencies the Pa and Indiana State police

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  #60  
Old 06-26-2020, 01:38 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
Since when, did the US Government, worry about the cost of things ?? !!

Do you have that in writing?

Remember back, when they bought toilet seats................. ??
I know for a fact the main reason the FBI switched from .40 to 9mm was ammo cost, because I was there. The ammo budget had basically stayed the same for years and training was being reduced. Figure 1,000 rounds per agent per year just for quals is about 14 million rounds, plus about 10K rounds for every baby agent in the Academy, plus SWAT plus HRT. Its a fair amount of ammo, and even a small savings per case adds up to a bunch more ammo to train with.

The other reasons (improved 9mm loads, easier on guns, easier to shoot) helped, but in the end it was ammo costs.
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Old 06-26-2020, 02:00 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather View Post
Interesting questions. Interesting observations.

May I suggest that you try shooting 9X19 under simulated combat conditions (low light, no hearing protection, no eye protection, maybe inside a closed room or automobile, just like it will be when you need to defend yourself in the real world), then try the same exercises using .357 Sig. Let us know how that works out for you, okay? You like recoil, you like muzzle blast, you like mega-fountains of muzzle flash, you should really enjoy the experience.

Might even save a buck or two on ammo.


Agree, BUT: I see a LOT of forum members carry .357 snub revolvers, even the Sc lightweights, stoked with full-house magnums.

It’s hard to picture the flash/bang/recoil effect being any worse.
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  #62  
Old 06-26-2020, 02:45 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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I think we'd all be wise to wait and see what Clint Eastwood has to say about all this ......... "Being that this is a .44, the most powerful handgun in the world, that can blow your head clean off, ya gotta ask your a question" ............

What would Harry do?
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  #63  
Old 06-26-2020, 04:29 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
Following this thread..... made me wonder why we didn't see more agencies adopt the Sig 227 10rds of .45 vs 10 rds of .357 sig in the 229???????


Wike only lists two agencies the Pa and Indiana State police
The SIG P229 .357SIG/.40 S&W comes with 12-round magazines (at least in free states). I assume police agencies would be exempt from magazine restrictions, so maybe the choice was based on the P229's increased capacity.
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:45 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Whatever floats your boat.
A lot of us think the 357 Siq is over hyped. And for us the 9 is just fine.
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:46 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Groo here
The main reasons for the 9mm in LE is #1 cost, [ammo and gun]
and the ease of shooting [ ease to qualify].
The test are just an excuse to change .[ 9mm is "just as good"]
The 357sig is based on the 357 mag revolver round and we know
it's performance on the street.....
I have a few , yes they kick ,they shoot flat and accurate [like a 357 mag] and hit hard.
[I just converted a 40 shield to 357 sig Oh Ya......]
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Old 06-26-2020, 05:07 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Ballistics are akin to religion, whole lotta different faiths, each worshipped by it's believers.
Whatever your faith is, however, don't imagine someone killed in a gunfight by a .357 Sig is any deader than someone killed by a 9mm. First rule in a gunfight. Have one.
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Old 06-26-2020, 09:48 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
Most police officers are carrying 9mm Luger these days, but I strongly suspect that that has more to do with the fact that 9mm ammo is significantly cheaper yet still adequate, not because more powerful cartridges offer no tangible advantages whatsoever.

Furthermore, I can't help but wonder how the officers themselves feel about the switch, because obviously they don't have any say in what they're issued. I've heard that a lot of officers were unhappy when they had to trade in their .40s for 9mms, often commenting on how they felt more confident carrying a .40 and how they resented that while guys who didn't have to put their own lives in danger had the most influence over what they were issued. I wouldn't be surprised if the Texas DPS Troopers feel the same.
Most cops are not gun enthusiests and they dont' go to the range unless you pay them. I think many would not like the recoil of a .357 sig so that is another reason cops probably like 9mm better. I know my friend is a cop and he will not go to the range with me because guns dont have that 'oh boy this is so cool" he is nuts about riding bicycles and it's all he talks about. I get it because I grew up in the car industry so cars were never a big deal to me. Give me anything that has four wheels and I am fine with it
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Old 06-26-2020, 10:35 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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It depends on the individual. Some folks find a bit of recoil reassuring, indicative of the "stopping power" (speaking in lay terms) of the firearm.
Granted that in reality recoil has very little to do with how effective a firearm is, especially when certain designs transfer a lot more recoil into the shooters hand than others, but folks who are inexperienced with firearms don't know any better. So even police who aren't firearms enthusiasts may feel more comfortable carrying the .357 SIG due to their perception of the recoil, muzzle flash, concussive force, and report in relation to the power of the cartridge and therefore its ability to stop a threat.
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Old 06-26-2020, 11:28 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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I'll go with the cheapest 38 cal/9 mm I can reload. That would be 9 mm. That would also be the cheapest 38 cal/9 mm I could buy if I didn't reload. I can reload +P for my 9 mm. No big secrets there and you can also buy it.

I would buy all of the 9 mm or 357 Sig ammo you can afford tomorrow. Actually, you should have already bought it.

I hope that answers your question.
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Old 06-27-2020, 12:12 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
I guess I pretty much agree with Dr.Gary Roberts(DocGKR) when he wrote...

“Compared to a 9mm, the .357 Sig has a decreased magazine capacity, more recoil, as well as greater muzzle blast and flash, yet at best it offers no gain in bullet penetration and expansion characteristics. What is the point of this cartridge?”
Exactly this.


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Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
When it comes to .357 SIG, it seems self-explanatory that it would be more effective than 9mm Luger because it's a bullet of equal size traveling at substantially higher velocity. If folks want to argue that fact, then I would like them to explain why 9mm Luger is more effective than .380 ACP, and assuming their answer is because it's launching a heavier, higher velocity bullet, then I would like to see then explain how it is that the same factors which make 9mm Luger more effective than .380 ACP somehow make absolutely no difference for .357 SIG.
The problem with 380 is its right on the border of providing adequate penetration in defensive loadings.

Imagine you have to hit a 1in off button that is 16in out of your reach. You have 3 tools in front of you with which to accomplish this task. They are metal pipes, with some heft on the end, and a handle on the other.

One increases your reach by 14in

One increases your reach by 17in

One increases your reach by 24in

The 14 in pipe isn't very suitable, it won't reach, maybe you could stretch enough to make it work, but maybe not.

The 17in pipe is about perfect, it has enough length to to reach the button, but isn't unnecessarily long or heavy.

The 24in pipe will also reach the button, but when holding it by the handle it's more difficult control due to the unnecessary weight and length, so odds are it will be more difficult and take you longer.
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Old 06-27-2020, 01:03 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Bottom Line:

A: .357 Sig and .40 S&W should never have been born; they are solutions looking for a non-existent problem. Now here's the heresy: The .45 ACP should also never have been born. It doesn't do anything to a person that a 9mm won't do just the same. They talk about the Moros, but never tell you the sequel, which is, the .45 didn't work any better than .38, and some Moros weren't even stopped by the .30-40 Krag rifle round.

B: 9mm Parabellum is all you need for anti-personnel work. The rest of the world somehow gets by without noticing any lack of lethality.

C: Big pistol cartridges are quintessentially American. They are useful for hunting, bear defense, and certain types of competition, but no more. Dirty Harry would have been better served with a Model 10 in .38 spl than the Magnum.

D: Shot placement and penetration are 100%. There is no evidence that can be gleaned from people who have been shot, be they living or dead, that hollow points, trick bullets, faster bullets, lighter bullets, heavier bullets, have any discernible differential effects.

E. They survive who put the most bullets in vital areas of the bad guy. The corollary is that more shots available is good, and less recoil means faster shots, which is even better. The conclusion from this is that the best cartridge is one that gives adequate penetration with the least recoil.

F: Building from E, in revolvers that is the .38 spl. In semi autos it's the 9mm, with the added benefit that in the semi, you also get the benefit of more rounds available.

G: In .357 Sig, you get a 9mm hopped up about another 200 fps or so from 9mm Parabellum. Since both cartridges will drive a bullet of ordinary weight (115 to 147 grains) to a speed that will penetrate adequately, you get no gain, but give up more recoil (slower shooting) and magazine capacity (fewer shots).

H: Generalizing from F and G, if you're carrying more than a .38 spl or a 9mm for self-protection, and don't have some rare highly specialized reason to do so (example: doubling as bear defense), you are overpowered and may pay the price.
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Old 06-27-2020, 08:51 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Univibe, I agree with you on all points above except your belief that hollow points offer no advantage over FMJ.
Yes, placement is king, with adequate penetration also right up there, but in a stressful gunfight where you have to get the opponent down before he gets you, your shot might be off a bit. It's not going to be like you are at the target range and have lots of time to place your shot.

I'd rather have something like a 124 grain HST that expands to .66 caliber and penetrates 18 inches, than a 124 FMJ that only stays .35 caliber and penetrates 22 inches.

That perfect .66 caliber mushroom will cause much more damage, and maybe cut that artery that the FMJ slipped by.
The 9mm would have a much better reputation these days if there weren't so many ineffectual hits caused by FMJ, or by older design JHPs that didn't expand.

If we'd have had bullets like the HST, Gold Dot and Ranger-T all along in the 9mm, it would have a much better reputation as a fight stopper.
You would be better off if you insist on carrying FMJ to have a .45 ACP, I sure wouldn't carry FMJ in my MP9 when there are excellent loads like the HST.
Carry FMJ in your 9mm if you desire, but you aren't going to convince the rest of us that it's a good choice.
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Old 06-27-2020, 09:18 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Ah, if it were a perfect world, where handgun bullets did what they were designed to do.

Those perfect .66 caliber mushrooms? Shoot into ballistic gel, you'll get them. Lead and copper flowers? Water barrels do that.

But death-bullets look mostly like they were beat up. Smeared noses, separated jackets. Some don't expand at all. Many are perforation shots and you never recover them. Few bullets shot into people make mushrooms or flowers. That's the real world, unfortunately.

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Old 06-27-2020, 09:21 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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At least with JHP, they will be some deformation/expansion or a chance of it.
9mm FMJ will always be .355 diameter, nothing more. And a very good chance of exiting your target and hitting something you didn't want to hit.

If FMJ had any advantage, there wouldn't be close to 3/4 of a million LEO's in this country carrying JHP to work everyday.
Do you know of any departments or agencies that mandate that only FMJ be carried ?
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Old 06-27-2020, 10:07 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Univibe View Post
Bottom Line:

A: .357 Sig and .40 S&W should never have been born; they are solutions looking for a non-existent problem. Now here's the heresy: The .45 ACP should also never have been born. It doesn't do anything to a person that a 9mm won't do just the same. They talk about the Moros, but never tell you the sequel, which is, the .45 didn't work any better than .38, and some Moros weren't even stopped by the .30-40 Krag rifle round.

B: 9mm Parabellum is all you need for anti-personnel work. The rest of the world somehow gets by without noticing any lack of lethality.

C: Big pistol cartridges are quintessentially American. They are useful for hunting, bear defense, and certain types of competition, but no more. Dirty Harry would have been better served with a Model 10 in .38 spl than the Magnum.

D: Shot placement and penetration are 100%. There is no evidence that can be gleaned from people who have been shot, be they living or dead, that hollow points, trick bullets, faster bullets, lighter bullets, heavier bullets, have any discernible differential effects.

E. They survive who put the most bullets in vital areas of the bad guy. The corollary is that more shots available is good, and less recoil means faster shots, which is even better. The conclusion from this is that the best cartridge is one that gives adequate penetration with the least recoil.

F: Building from E, in revolvers that is the .38 spl. In semi autos it's the 9mm, with the added benefit that in the semi, you also get the benefit of more rounds available.

G: In .357 Sig, you get a 9mm hopped up about another 200 fps or so from 9mm Parabellum. Since both cartridges will drive a bullet of ordinary weight (115 to 147 grains) to a speed that will penetrate adequately, you get no gain, but give up more recoil (slower shooting) and magazine capacity (fewer shots).

H: Generalizing from F and G, if you're carrying more than a .38 spl or a 9mm for self-protection, and don't have some rare highly specialized reason to do so (example: doubling as bear defense), you are overpowered and may pay the price.
Bottom line, people need to support claims for me to take them seriously. You've provided very little in the way of specificity preferring generalities without any supporting evidence. I've been warned about you in private messages, and I see why. Without data, you are providing me with nothing to back up your assertions and much of what you said is easily refuted. I've provided much more information and have received very little in return which suggests you may be more concerned with being right than arriving at any sort of truth, so let's just agree to utterly disagree.
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Old 06-27-2020, 10:58 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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My friend offered to go in half with me if I bought a case of HST 147. Considering it is $800 a case, it sounded great however,........
That's where you went wrong. Last year( ok, maybe year before), Target Sports had Federal "bonded HST LE" ammo for $15/ box. 124gr or 147, +P or not. My only mistake was not buying more than one case. I only have 650 rds left, mostly gifting the rest to friends wanting the best but not wanting to pay the $50-$60/ box at the now non-existent gun shows. I fire exactly 24 rds of this/ yr so I'm hoping I got enough until half an hour past dead. Joe
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Old 06-27-2020, 08:22 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Univibe View Post
Bottom Line:

A: .357 Sig and .40 S&W should never have been born; they are solutions looking for a non-existent problem. Now here's the heresy: The .45 ACP should also never have been born. It doesn't do anything to a person that a 9mm won't do just the same. They talk about the Moros, but never tell you the sequel, which is, the .45 didn't work any better than .38, and some Moros weren't even stopped by the .30-40 Krag rifle round.

B: 9mm Parabellum is all you need for anti-personnel work. The rest of the world somehow gets by without noticing any lack of lethality.

C: Big pistol cartridges are quintessentially American. They are useful for hunting, bear defense, and certain types of competition, but no more. Dirty Harry would have been better served with a Model 10 in .38 spl than the Magnum.

D: Shot placement and penetration are 100%. There is no evidence that can be gleaned from people who have been shot, be they living or dead, that hollow points, trick bullets, faster bullets, lighter bullets, heavier bullets, have any discernible differential effects.

E. They survive who put the most bullets in vital areas of the bad guy. The corollary is that more shots available is good, and less recoil means faster shots, which is even better. The conclusion from this is that the best cartridge is one that gives adequate penetration with the least recoil.

F: Building from E, in revolvers that is the .38 spl. In semi autos it's the 9mm, with the added benefit that in the semi, you also get the benefit of more rounds available.

G: In .357 Sig, you get a 9mm hopped up about another 200 fps or so from 9mm Parabellum. Since both cartridges will drive a bullet of ordinary weight (115 to 147 grains) to a speed that will penetrate adequately, you get no gain, but give up more recoil (slower shooting) and magazine capacity (fewer shots).

H: Generalizing from F and G, if you're carrying more than a .38 spl or a 9mm for self-protection, and don't have some rare highly specialized reason to do so (example: doubling as bear defense), you are overpowered and may pay the price.
You know what they say about opinions...........Everybody's got one. essentially yours is no better than mine or any other forum member.
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Old 06-27-2020, 09:13 PM
Injunbro Injunbro is offline
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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By the same token why not shoot a .22 magnum since it's way superior to the .22 LR or a .500 S&W instead of the wimpier handguns? Shot placement is what works, not power. I know of more than 1 who killed black bears w/ .22LR's & recently a guide stopped a charging grizzly w/ a 9mm. Buy what you like & learn to shoot it accurately.
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Old 06-28-2020, 10:59 PM
jupiter1 jupiter1 is offline
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Univibe View Post
They talk about the Moros, but never tell you the sequel, which is, the .45 didn't work any better than .38, and some Moros weren't even stopped by the .30-40 Krag rifle round.
I noticed that years ago while doing a lot of reading on the subject; nothing was written about the sequel. However, it was stated that the 12 ga shotgun was the most reliable performer for the troops in the Philippines. That was mainly because there were 9 chances of hitting a vital structure with one well placed shot.
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Old 06-28-2020, 11:56 PM
jupiter1 jupiter1 is offline
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandog View Post
That perfect .66 caliber mushroom will cause much more damage, and maybe cut that artery that the FMJ slipped by.
The 9mm would have a much better reputation these days if there weren't so many ineffectual hits caused by FMJ, or by older design JHPs that didn't expand.
Pretty much the same can be said for any smooth FMJ bullet, no matter the diameter. I doubt there is any measurable difference in effectiveness between a .45 and 9mm FMJ in that regard.

A jagged, expanded projectile may slice an artery much like a broadhead is designed to do. A broadhead tipped arrow is a great killer of game that needs to be harvested. But game, most times, needs to be tracked a good distance before collapse due to blood loss.

Incapacitation of a determined human attacker needs a bullet that breaks things or a CNS hit; much like a large bear needs, and which is why most people carrying a handgun for bear defense rely on solids. Relying on the ability of a hollow point bullet to clip a bear's artery will likely result in a bled out bear lying on top of a shredded human.
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Old 06-29-2020, 07:59 PM
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Dr. Roberts does not take into account the kinetic energy of the .357 sig round. It may not penatrate any deeper but it causes more shock to the brain.
Oh please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:55 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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I like the .357 Sig cartridge, and after recent events have started carrying a Glock 32. After decades of shooting .357 Magnum out of snub revolvers I don’t find the .357 Sig to be unpleasant at all. There are situations where I could see the noise and flame of the Sig round being useful. It’s also a very flat shooting and accurate round. If there was a pistol caliber carbine in .357 Sig I’d buy one.

It appears that .357 Sig may be a bit more popular than most people think. I called a police supply business today to order some more .357 Sig and they were sold out. Back in mid March they had hundreds of cases of .357 Sig, sold it all. I put off buying more figuring it would never sell out, oops. Called another police supply, they were out too.
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Old 06-29-2020, 10:07 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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I almost got a .38 Super barrel for a 1911 recently. I decided I would stick with the 9mm. It will do all that I need. If I wasn't so old, I might try a 357 Sig, but just don't see the need to bother with it now.
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Old 06-30-2020, 11:15 AM
Mike, SC Hunter Mike, SC Hunter is online now
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Oh please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-30-2020, 11:45 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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CLASS!, CLASS!


If the 40SW is so much better than a 9mm what happened to it??. It is 10mm light!


Watch this video, i posted before here.


One of the best videos on bullet testing


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Last edited by Rule3; 06-30-2020 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 06-30-2020, 11:46 AM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
Since when, did the US Government, worry about the cost of things ?? !!

Do you have that in writing?

Remember back, when they bought toilet seats................. ??
I worked for a division of Olin for a while. You know, the makers of Winchester ammo? And the tank rounds for the Army? And the JSOW AGM-154? And the XM982 Excaliber GPS guided cannon?

Anyway, as for the US Military, think NATO compatibility. 9mm is the standard. Period. Nothing to do with the best.
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Old 07-06-2020, 09:32 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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357 sig won't do anything 9mm won't do.
What the hell you smokin' son?
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Old 07-07-2020, 12:24 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Whatever floats your boat.

I read all 87 of the posts in this thread. Erich's post sums it up.
Wish I could like it more than once.
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Old 07-07-2020, 12:49 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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According to the fort's records, even though men were shorter back then, the soldiers had to be 6 ft. tall minimum. This was true more or less on average in law enforcement and military applications until the 1980's and is even more so today. THAT is at least part of the reason we don't see .357 SIG more popular as you and I know it can do everything a 9mm can do but better.
I can't speak to the PD comment, but your comment about the military is dead wrong.
I have personal knowledge of the US Military back to 1931 and no such standard was in existence.
I enlisted in the US Army in 1963 at a height of 5 ft. 8 inches and 5'10" was about average in height then.
There was no 6 ft. standard.
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Old 07-07-2020, 02:06 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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I can't speak to the PD comment, but your comment about the military is dead wrong.
I have personal knowledge of the US Military back to 1931 and no such standard was in existence.
I enlisted in the US Army in 1963 at a height of 5 ft. 8 inches and 5'10" was about average in height then.
There was no 6 ft. standard.
I’m pretty sure you were supposed to be 5,8 to get into Navy flight training program. I was about 5’ 7”, and the flight surgeon doing had me “stand up a little straighter” until he decided I was close enough.
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Old 07-07-2020, 02:38 PM
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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In looking at the stats, I think there is an additional factor to be considered, 357 Sig _should_ have a huge advantage because there are not a lot of untrained civilians using it. If someone buys a 357 Sig, I venture to guess that person is an experienced shooter and shoots regularly v. the majority of 9X19 carriers who only have that 1 weapon and maybe make it to the range once a year.

Assuming I am correct, the fact that the 357 Sig is not a lot more effective than the stats show would seem to indicate that its advantages as a round are not that great. in comparison to the 9X19. A better round with better shooters should be massively better, not marginally better.

*No studies to back this up, just pure speculation on my part, but it makes sense to me (but hey, I'm the one making it up, so of course it makes sense to me )
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Old 07-07-2020, 06:22 PM
Mahalo_.32 Mahalo_.32 is offline
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When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm? When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonrunner View Post
I have seen tests where both 9mm and .357 have same penatration but the kinetic energy from .357 cannot easily be measured.

My everyday carry is usually my FN57 because the cartridge is totally bad *** but when I am not carrying that my .357Sig is my next logical choice.

I do prefer to plink with 9mm however
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