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Old 07-30-2020, 06:00 PM
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Default How much over penetration are we talking?

This question is being prompted, in part, due to the scarcity of hollow point self defense ammunition.

It seems as though the first reaction that almost everyone has when they hear that you are carrying hardball, is that it is a danger due to over penetration. I live in a state where hollow points fall into a gray void with respect to it's legality. I am not an ogre, and I don't get my kicks by inflicting pain and watching someone suffer.

Currently, I have a 45 and a 9 that I could carry hardball in, when I am legal to carry. When my dad was alive, and he would reflect about the effectiveness of the 45, he always painted the picture that the 45 was a fight stopper, when using hardball. (These chats were from the '60s -'70s, and were based on reflections of WWII and Korea.)

Presuming that a round of hardball did transit a "threat" , how much further could a 230gr FMJ or a 115/124gr FMJ go once it penetrates the body? Would the round retain sufficient energy to inflict catastrophic injury beyond the threat?

Please, don't jump all over me for the question, I just don't know the answer and I'd like to know!

As always, thanks in advance for your help!
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Old 07-30-2020, 06:22 PM
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The short answer is yes, both .45ACP and 9mm FMJ can overpenetrate enough to injure bystanders, and there are documented instances of this happening.

When NYPD first transitioned to 9mm semi-autos in the 90s, they used hardball ammo. After several instances of overpenetration resulting in both bystanders and officers being injured after rounds passed through people, they switched to JHP.

NEW YORK POLICE WILL START USING DEADLIER BULLETS - The New York Times

[Note: It's the New York Times...what kind of headline would you expect from them?]

.45 hardball has also caused injuries due to overpenetration. In one example, LAPD SWAT, who used 1911s loaded with .45 FMJ, responded to a hostage situation. The hostage taker was shot, and one of the rounds exited the hostage taker and wounded one of his hostages.

Massad Ayoob: The Dangers of Over-Penetrating Bullets | Gun Digest

In another case, a police officer fired a .45ACP FMJ bullet at an attacker. The bullet passed through the attacker's body and struck another officer coming to help him in the abdomen, causing a life-threatening wound.

Is Hollowpoint the Best Defensive Ammo for Concealed Carry? | Gun Digest

There are options that come to mind. Federal's EFMJ, I believe under their Guard Dog line, offer FMJ ammo that will expand and penetrate less.

If you're willing to go to .38 Special, 148gr target wadcutters are non-HP, but will penetrate sufficiently while minimizing the chance for overpenetration. They're also more likely to cut a full-caliber wound channel than FMJ, even in bigger calibers.

Now, if I were stuck with no hollowpoints, and had to use FMJ, and EFMJ wasn't available, I would use .45ACP, albeit reluctantly. While I think it still poses an overpenetration risk, I see the big, heavy, slow bullet being less likely to do so than the smaller, lighter, faster 9mm, though I have to admit the difference isn't probably going to be much. I believe they'll both penetrate about 2 feet in ballistics gel.

I can't tell you what you should or shouldn't do. Whatever your choice, be aware of the possible consequences.

Just my opinion.
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:43 PM
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As stated, a 9mm is more apt to over penetrate than a 45, but both might.
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:48 PM
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The funny thing about the NYPD change was that 83% of their shots missed the bad guys. They were worried about the few that actually hit the bad guys.
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:59 PM
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There are subsonic variants of 9mm factory loads which should lessen potential overpenetration.


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Old 07-30-2020, 08:07 PM
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The funny thing about the NYPD change was that 83% of their shots missed the bad guys. They were worried about the few that actually hit the bad guys.
And yet, even if they had a 100% hit rate, they'd still have overpenetration issues if they had stuck with FMJ. I don't know why people keep bringing up missing whenever overpenetration is discussed. It's irrelevant.
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:08 PM
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There are subsonic variants of 9mm factory loads which should lessen potential overpenetration.
Interesting perspective. Haven't seen any data on that yet.
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:18 PM
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If you can find them, Hornaday has their Critical Duty (preferred) and Critical Defense. Federal had an expanding full metal jacket mentioned above. Your state doesn't consider any of them "hollow points" and you can carry them inside/outside the home.

As for over penetration, I recall reading about a concentration camp guard who experimented with 9 mm and found he could reliably execute 8 inmates with one round. While a despicable individual and action, he did establish a benchmark one could keep in mind.

If you just have to use hard ball in either, you should be extremely careful of the background. I doubt that citing state law prohibiting the use of better ammunition would do much for you in a legal action. Plaintiff would probably assert that you shouldn't have shot.

Last edited by WR Moore; 07-31-2020 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:26 PM
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I live in the country. To me the topic is over played. In fact I want as much penetration as possible. Personally I would not shoot with people standing behind them.
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:32 PM
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9mm FMJ will over penetrate a lot farther than .45 ball will. But as said above, both will. .45 ball would be my choice if these were the only 2 options.
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:33 PM
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I would think that when in a jurisdiction that prohibits HP ammo, the next best cure for over penetration would be heavy for caliber bullets with the largest, flattest meplat that you can get to feed reliably.
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:37 PM
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Default Hybrid Bullets

There are now bullets that behave like JHPs but are classified as JSPs because they don't have a hollow cavity. One such round is Hornady Critical Defense. Two my knowledge, they are legal in places like NJ and every bit as effective as JHPs.

Another such round is Federal Guard Dog EFMJ, again not classified as JHPs. Either round eliminates the guessing or potential risk of using FMJs.
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:40 PM
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Interesting perspective. Haven't seen any data on that yet.
Actually, the subsonic 9mm 147 tended to not expand, while
overpenetrating in people, and underpenetrating barriers.

Kind of the worst of all worlds, all in one!
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:44 PM
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Default Confusing Laws

In seem to recall that the 10 round California magazine limit was temporarily suspended but is on appeal with the possibility that 2nd Amendment advocates will ultimately lose the appeal.
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:46 PM
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Actually, the subsonic 9mm 147 tended to not expand, while
overpenetrating in people, and underpenetrating barriers.

Kind of the worst of all worlds, all in one!
That was the older JHP from the 90s. My understanding was that it wasn't designed for expansion, but was intended for use in suppressed pistols and submachine guns.

The current crop of 9mm 147gr JHP are all good to go as far as penetration and expansion. My defensive load of choice is 147gr HST.

However, since those early 147gr JHP didn't expand, their performance would likely mimic FMJ of the same weight, so in that light it seems like maybe 147gr FMJ would still be an overpenetrating round.

Thanks for sharing.
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Old 07-30-2020, 08:55 PM
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However, since those early 147gr JHP didn't expand, their performance would likely mimic FMJ of the same weight, so in that light it seems like maybe 147gr FMJ would still be an overpenetrating round.

Thanks for sharing.
No, because the 147s lacked the energy of faster, lighter slugs.


Thanks for sharing.
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Old 07-30-2020, 09:11 PM
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I am one of those who became involved with firearms during the transitional period that might be divided between "the old tried and true" and "the new and improved" versions of ammunition.

Prior to the 1960's just about all ammunition offered for revolvers featured lead bullets, with the round nose being the most common form. Just about everything available for semi-auto pistols came with full metal jacket and round nose, features that facilitate the feeding cycles of such handguns. There were a few exceptions, such as the .357 magnum with pointed bullets of hardened metals that were specifically designed to increase penetration (think about the 1930's when the .357 came to be, a period of the "automobile bandits" raiding towns to rob banks and businesses, and cops trying to shoot through the big old cars of the day to get to the bad guys).

Ammunition manufacturers regularly published charts and data on their offerings, with one of the reported factors being comparisons of penetration to be expected, commonly reported as the number of 1" pine boards were penetrated in testing (9mm Luger was just about always near the top in penetration testing). In short, penetration was considered a desirable attribute for handgun ammunition.

Military development of ammunition has always focused on penetration to overcome barriers, heavy uniforms, personal equipment, etc. Again, penetration was considered to be a desirable attribute.

During the 1960's there was a great deal of development work done on handgun ammunition. One notable company was SuperVel, introducing the concept of hollow-point bullets of relatively light weight delivered at the highest possible velocities. In the decades since there has been a huge amount of research and development done in this area, and most ammo manufacturers offer at least one (sometimes several) lines of "personal defense" or "law enforcement" ammunition, all with the overall goal of maximizing terminal effectiveness (wounding capability) while minimizing dangers associated with ricochet and over-penetration of the intended target.

Some of these products have proven to be quite good. Others have been mediocre. Some have performed poorly in controlled testing. Not a single one has proven to be perfect (if that happened all further R&D would stop and no new products would appear every week or so).

I have used full metal jacket ammo in military combat. I have seen its effects, and I have been wounded by such ammunition. I have also carried expanding bullet ammunition in law enforcement and personal defense use (jacketed hollow-point, swaged lead hollow-point, and frangible types). I have seen its effects in actual shootings.

My personal preference for defensive handgun ammo is good quality expanding bullets such as the Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, and Hornady XTP. However, I do not feel at a significant disadvantage with full metal jacket ammo, and if that is all that is available that is what I will use, and I will be glad to have it when needed.

The first objective of carrying a defensive firearm is survival. Everything else is somewhere down the list of concerns. Survival is achieved by eliminating the threat when necessary. A shot that passes through the target and continues on is a far lesser concern than the immediate and imperative objective of survival.

I am not saying that over-penetration is not a concern worthy of consideration. All I am saying is that it is, at best, a secondary concern.

These discussions (which frequently turn into heated arguments) are occasionally interesting, but the obvious seems to be the least apparent point raised by anyone.

My first priority will always be survival. Everything else can be dealt with later.
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Old 07-31-2020, 06:28 AM
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If all I had and could find was FMJ I would use it without hesitation. Hollow points are both more effective and much less likely to overpenetrate but it is not like FMJ is going to go through the attacker, an innocent bystander and then circle the globe to hit you in the back of the head. Use FMJ for now and switch to hollowpoints when you can.

A lot of the emphasis on preventing over penetration comes from police shootings. They are far more likely to have to shoot at someone when there are a lot of innocent people nearby than we are as civilians. If someone is going to mug you they will try to do so when there are as few witnesses around as possible. If someone is breaking into your house in the suburbs three is much less chance of a bystander getting injured than when police have to shoot at someone on a busy street.

As others have stated by far the biggest reason bystanders get shot is because of misses, not over penetration. Unlike the police as a civilian the only valid reason to shoot at someone is self defense. Which often means shorter distances and less chance of missing.

Hollow points are clearly better for self defense and that is what I carry. Glad I bought that half case of GoldDots a couple of years ago. But I do not consider carrying FMJ reckless, particularly if that is all that is available. And while HP ammo is better not many criminals are going to have enough meth or PCP in them to laugh off getting shot with a FMJ 9mm or 45.
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:44 AM
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No, because the 147s lacked the energy of faster, lighter slugs.


Thanks for sharing.
That's not what I'm talking about. JHPs that don't expand tend to behave like FMJ. If a 147gr JHP doesn't expand, like the older 90s 147gr JHP, and they overpenetrate, then it would follow that 147gr FMJ would also tend to overpenetrate.

And FYI, I was being sincere when I thanked you for sharing your post. Since this is text, I can't be sure of your intention, but it seems like you're being insulting in using that phrase back at me. Nothing I've posted warrants that. Apologies if I'm wrong.
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Old 07-31-2020, 10:07 AM
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I've got a sneaking suspicion that the pine board penetration box pre-dated cartridge firearms.

With that out of the way, the bullets Federal uses/used in what they now call their "Classic" ammunition line were always decent with respect to expansion. Same with the plain Jane Remington JHPs and SJHP. They were using those in the HTP (High Terminal Performance) ammo line and the JHPs will feed in any firearm that will feed ball ammo. I'm not sure how they fared in the FBI ammo tests, but they have a track record of working in many/most real world cases.

I'm personally not that thrilled with the XTPs. Hornaday really meant it when they labeled (Xtreme Terminal Penetration) that design. We used it in a custom loaded 10 mm duty round.
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Old 07-31-2020, 11:35 AM
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In war times, the "Ball ammo" was used in order to not kill and to wound ..........
where it would take more men to take the wounded off the field and to a aid station to receive care.
Less men on the field upped the odds for the other side.

It is a fact that Ball ammo will over penetrate and cause minimal tissue damage, due to its design, just as the old lead RN 38 special did when it started out as a LE load.

The design and shape of the bullet is Major, on how fast it will stop a threat, if it does not hit the heart, spine or brain and have to count on blood loss.

My use of a "Ball" load for SD use would be last on my list.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:03 PM
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At the ranges private citizens will be legally using handguns for self defense, hitting the CNS should be the primary objective in order to stop the threat instantly. Center mass just takes to long to stop an attacker. I don't see where JHPs are any advantage in that case.
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Old 07-31-2020, 02:02 PM
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A 9mm FMJ will be like a hot knife through butter as far as over penetration is concerned. You'll probably have to hit the bad guy with the whole magazine to stop them unless one of your rounds is fortunate enough to be a head shot or tear through the meat of the heart. So when you survive the self defense situation, you'll end up with some whacked out civil liability stuff from someone who got hit with overpenetrating rounds and someone complaining that you used too much force because you shot 15 rounds.

If my only option was to carry FMJ, it would definitely be a .45. Less chance of over penetration and larger wound. But I would still be concerned.
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Old 07-31-2020, 02:25 PM
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As for over penetration, I recall reading about a concentration camp guard who experimented with 9 mm and found he could reliably execute 8 inmates with one round. While a despicable individual and action, he did establish a benchmark one could keep in mind.
WWII German 9mm ammo I have seen were attracted to magnets. I do not know if they were steel jackets or steel core, so I do not believe that is a benchmark of any use. I have not seen any tests of 9/45 ball shot into gel torsos. Even those results will be skewed because I have seen FMG's that penetrated a body from frontal shot, others that did not, it depended on many variables, clothing, specific ammo, bullet design. But if all you have is hardball, it is better than fingernails, though both can possibly leave a body. Be Safe,
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Old 07-31-2020, 03:20 PM
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A local sheriffs deputy responded to a belligerent customer call at a bar. The deputy feared for his life, pulled his 9mm and immediately sprayed an entire magazine into the bar as he came in the door. Innocent customers, the bartender, a waitress and a cop outside the bar were hit, the belligerent customer came through unscathed.

The 9mm round that hit the cop outside passed through the 1" knotty pine indoor wall and a 1/2" outer wall. At least in that instance a 9mm round showed the penetration capabilities.
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Old 07-31-2020, 04:09 PM
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I live in the country. To me the topic is over played. In fact I want as much penetration as possible. Personally I would not shoot with people standing behind them.
To play the Devil's advocate, so you would choose to die versus defending yourself? Don't think about it, don't take time to evaluate the scenario--there's a gun in your face and the guy is screaming, "I'm gonna kill you!"

Now what?
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Old 07-31-2020, 04:26 PM
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Ammunition has markedly improved since 1986 and the FBI shootout....10 Agents vs.2 Subjects that were prior Military with One having a Ranger Tab...They were determined to survive and he killed 2 Agents after being shot thru the Shoulder with a S&W 9mm...The bullet penetrated thru a lung and stopped an inch short of the Heart, which would have been fatal...He, with that wound, and using one arm , advanced and shot and killed 2 Agents using a Mini-14...

The entire incident was a tragedy and bad tactics , but it set in motion a very extensive study on ballistics, with the development of the 10mm, which was difficult to shoot for some people, than evolved to the 10mm Short, or .40 Caliber.

The extensive testing done at Quantico and standards set had all the major ammo manufacturers competing to develop ammunition to meet DOJ standards for penetration and expansion.

This was accomplished with the Bonded Bullet, where the Jacket is Bonded to the Core...Winchester had the DOJ contract with their Ranger line...Since DOJ decided 9mm was good enough with a Bonded Bullet, Hornady now has that contract for ammo with the Critical Duty load.

Any Bonded Bullet is superior to what was previously available.

As another poster said in this thread, Survival is job #1, everything else can be dealt with.
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Old 07-31-2020, 06:27 PM
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To play the Devil's advocate, so you would choose to die versus defending yourself? Don't think about it, don't take time to evaluate the scenario--there's a gun in your face and the guy is screaming, "I'm gonna kill you!"

Now what?
I had a gun pressed up against my stomach many years ago in a bar. The guy's eyes were crazy. My instinct was to put my hands up and talk him down. It ended well. I was not armed and if I was I don't think I would have done anything differently since it happened so fast. Every incident is different and quite honestly I don't know how I would react today.
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Old 07-31-2020, 06:41 PM
azhobo azhobo is offline
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Default Re: Over penetration

I have nothing to add/offer to this thread, but I do have a question. At post #2 wadcutters were mentioned. I know little or nothing about wadcutters, but would likely recognize them on sight. My question to y'all is.......
what kind of threat stopping difference would you expect to see, in .38 Spl, between the noted 148 gr wadcutter, and a 158 gr LRN bullet?
Thanks for any info, and regards to all.
Bob
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Old 07-31-2020, 06:56 PM
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In one side and out the other. One hole to let blood out and the other to let air in.
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by azhobo View Post
I have nothing to add/offer to this thread, but I do have a question. At post #2 wadcutters were mentioned. I know little or nothing about wadcutters, but would likely recognize them on sight. My question to y'all is.......
what kind of threat stopping difference would you expect to see, in .38 Spl, between the noted 148 gr wadcutter, and a 158 gr LRN bullet?
Thanks for any info, and regards to all.
Bob
I can speculate based on what I've been able to research on terminal ballistics.

The key is the different bullet shapes. Tissue is elastic. When a round bullet, like LRN, strikes tissue, it's going to stretch until it reaches the limit of its tensile strength. The LRN will then pass through. But with tissue being elastic, it's going to go back to its relaxed state, and the entry wound will likely end up being smaller than the bullet's caliber. In some cases, the tissue may even close up, possibly limiting blood loss. Also, because of the round shape, it may be more prone to deflect off of hard surfaces, like bone, rather than break them, unless the surface is hit straight-on. Similarly, it may have a similar effect on blood vessels, pushing them side without necessarily breaking them.

With the 148gr WC, you have a full-caliber meplat with an edge around it. This shape is more likely to cut/crush tissue than stretch it before passing through. It's more likely to dig into bone and cause damage than LRN. And it's more likely to cut blood vessels.

With all that said, there are a lot of variables. The LRN could deform, flatten, and expand, potentially causing more damage. The WC could deform by becoming more rounded and thus cause less damage. But I still think the likelihood of the WC causing more damage than LRN is higher, high enough that I would choose WC over LRN if those are my only two choices.

And since this thread is about overpenetration, here's another factor. I haven't been able to find gel tests for 158gr LRN (if anyone knows a link, please share...I'd like to see it), but if other RN bullets are any indication, it has a good chance of overpenetrating. 148gr WC, on the other, does have some gel tests available. From what I've seen, they tend to fall within the FBI's 12-18" penetration window, meaning there's a good chance they won't overpenetrate while still providing adequate penetration. Another reason I would prefer 148gr WC over 158gr LRN. In fact, while I typically use Speer 135gr SB-GDHP +P in my snubs, I have tested, and keep on hand, some 148gr WC in the event I need some low recoil loads for defensive use.

And before someone says it, shot placement is still the most important factor in stopping a violent attacker, regardless of bullet type or caliber. But the way I see it, if you can shoot well enough to get that good shot placement, why not stack the odds in your favor with more effective ammo if possible?

Just my opinion.

Last edited by ContinentalOp; 07-31-2020 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 07-31-2020, 09:46 PM
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Based on what I read, the bullet tore the top of his aorta off. He was dead, it just took a while for him to realize it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike 139 View Post
Ammunition has markedly improved since 1986 and the FBI shootout....10 Agents vs.2 Subjects that were prior Military with One having a Ranger Tab...They were determined to survive and he killed 2 Agents after being shot thru the Shoulder with a S&W 9mm...The bullet penetrated thru a lung and stopped an inch short of the Heart, which would have been fatal...He, with that wound, and using one arm , advanced and shot and killed 2 Agents using a Mini-14...

The entire incident was a tragedy and bad tactics , but it set in motion a very extensive study on ballistics, with the development of the 10mm, which was difficult to shoot for some people, than evolved to the 10mm Short, or .40 Caliber.

The extensive testing done at Quantico and standards set had all the major ammo manufacturers competing to develop ammunition to meet DOJ standards for penetration and expansion.

This was accomplished with the Bonded Bullet, where the Jacket is Bonded to the Core...Winchester had the DOJ contract with their Ranger line...Since DOJ decided 9mm was good enough with a Bonded Bullet, Hornady now has that contract for ammo with the Critical Duty load.

Any Bonded Bullet is superior to what was previously available.

As another poster said in this thread, Survival is job #1, everything else can be dealt with.
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Old 07-31-2020, 10:57 PM
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My brother and I were going into the forest deer hunting, I was to drive to him on stand. He carried a 270 Rem and I a Ruger Security Six, my carry gun at the time, a 357 magnum with Hydroshock loads. At 75 yards in I spotted a buck walking, I pulled the 357 and my brother raised the 270. Caught behind the shoulder blade the buck turned 45 degrees and dropped dead at 47 yards. No exit and when opened drained more than any other ever opened. When I have a sport coat on that Ruger is in a shoulder holster, stainless steel with a 2" barrel is still too heave to carry any other way. Now I carry a 9 with Gold Dot until I can find a box of HST.
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Old 08-01-2020, 02:07 AM
J. R. WEEMS J. R. WEEMS is offline
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Originally Posted by Gamecock View Post
The funny thing about the NYPD change was that 83% of their shots missed the bad guys. They were worried about the few that actually hit the bad guys.
Yes, it HAS happened-- there are also people who have been struck by lightning more that once -- If the bad guy needs to be stopped do just that-- Your Dad knew of what he spoke. if this is what we must chance to protect ourselves, and our loved ones then so be it. No sane person wants to shoot some one or an innocent bystander but the fact is it can can happen, but that isnt an excuse to let a bad guy run rampant over us. Just look at the current news, if you can believe any of it?? If not the photos tell most of the tale. Might be a good idea not to over think the problem. Avoid shooting if you must, but protect yourself and your loved ones regardless. JMHO of course-- no need to tear me up on this, it wont change my thoughts on the subject.
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Old 08-01-2020, 02:10 AM
flyboy129 flyboy129 is offline
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Paul does a good job of showcasing this
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Old 08-01-2020, 02:37 AM
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Default I've got a stock o 9mmf JHP ammo.....

...but it is fairly limited. However I have a pile of 125 grain SWCs that would do in a tight spot.
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Old 08-01-2020, 07:48 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipermd View Post
WWII German 9mm ammo I have seen were attracted to magnets. I do not know if they were steel jackets or steel core, so I do not believe that is a benchmark of any use.
The deciding factors in penetration are bullet integrity and velocity. In the case of handguns and FMJs of virtually any description, there simply isn't enough velocity to change the bullet shape short of hitting hitting a steel plate or concrete wall. Therefore, jacket/core material really doesn't matter.

Steel jacketed/cored rifle ammunition is an entirely difference case. The jacket/core are intended to insure bullet/core integrity at the higher velocities produced by rifles where enhanced penetration is desired.

I used to have a newspaper article on a police shooting back in the late 1960's or early 1970's. A detective tried to disarm a knife wielding young man without killing him by shooting him in the left forearm. The 158 gr LRN deflected off the bones of the forearm and entered the left bicep. It then deflected off the humerus and entered the chest cavity, passing through the chest cavity from left to right. During this passage, it severed one or more major arteries before exiting the chest cavity and lodging in the right bicep. Bullet was launched from a snubby or it most likely would have exited the right bicep. Subject was dead on the scene.
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Old 08-01-2020, 10:16 PM
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Over penetration, LOL. As if you aren't going to miss...
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