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Old 08-14-2020, 02:53 PM
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Question Do I really NEED a magnum?

Hi folks,

I love .357 magnum. It’s the one that does everything, from punching paper to taking game - with a side of man-stopper !


Do I really need to carry magnum rounds in my defensive/carry revolver?


If I can hit the FBI protocols with 130gr ranger bonded at 900-ish feet per second, and have expansion to around .600, why would I subject myself to the much more violent magnum rounds?


Hydra-shok, XTP, FTX...travelling at 1200-1400 FPS all have significantly more recoil and flash than the Ranger +p loading. With similar terminal performance of penetration depth and expansion, where’s the value ?


All input welcome.
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Old 08-14-2020, 02:58 PM
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No, you don't need magnums. I have +P .38's in my 38 and 357 speed loaders.
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Old 08-14-2020, 03:00 PM
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IF you can handle the extra blast & recoil, IF you’re not concerned about over-penetration & IF you practice w/.357 regularly it should be OK. I can only tell you that I had to use my issued .38 three times in my career (+P) and I’m still around, and trust that caliber for my safety in retirement.
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Old 08-14-2020, 03:11 PM
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Have been shooting both .38 Special and .357 S&W Magnum since about 1980. In decent weight revolvers, neither is a problem. But, for fast shooting a hot loaded .38 Special is simply easier to use than a full house .357 Magnum. Firing at significant distance, the magnum is certainly a better choice. Accuracy of either is excellent but the magnum simply offers far more power on target. For self-defense or home defense, I have relied on .38 Special JHP's whether loaded in a K-frame or N-frame. Used on everything from water soaked newspaper to water filled milk jugs and water melons, the hot loaded .38 JHP's give excellent expansion and penetration. At ranges measuring in feet ... maybe firing across a bedroom or down a hallway, the effectiveness of that load is very comforting. Must say, for years I have had a 9mm in the drawer of the night stand loaded with high performance self-defense JHP ammunition. It is still a excellent choice ... about like a automatic .38 Special. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.
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Old 08-14-2020, 03:36 PM
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Nothing wrong with carrying .38 Special instead of .357 Magnum. When I had a 3" 65 it was normally loaded with FBI loads, sometimes with Speer 135gr SB-GDHP +P .38 Special, and rarely with their mid-range .357 Magnum SB-GDHP. Not as much flash, blast, and recoil as full-power .357 Magnum loads, but still effective.

.357 Magnum will work, too, for those who simply must have it in their guns and are willing and able to deal with its downsides.

One area it's probably better to go magnum is if four-legged predators are a legitimate threat. But for general personal and home defense, a good .38 Special load is sufficient.

Just my opinion.
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Old 08-14-2020, 04:06 PM
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I wont argue what is "good enough". Everyone has their own opinions.

I will say that I believe, all else being equell - Bullet expansion, adequate penetration, etc., a higher velocity HP bullet just hits harder.

When I started in LE, we carried the .357 mag Remington 125 grain SJHP. It was a hot load, and was noted as the "King" of one shot handgun loads. I think it was / is because of the added velocity and tissue damage it causes. A modern bullet may expand properly, and penetrate adequately at 900 fps. But it wont cause the same physical damage as a bullet doing the same thing at about 450 fps faster.

But, as some have noted, there are trade offs in blast and recoil. So I guess it really does boil down to what one is comfortable with.

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Old 08-14-2020, 04:24 PM
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I watched the movie "Dirty Harry".. Nothin' but a Magnum will do..
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Old 08-14-2020, 04:30 PM
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Objective speaking, there are very few "needs" involved when it comes to Self-Defense, and considering that even 9mm Luger (which falls substantially short of the ballistics performance of .357 Magnum) has been used effectively worldwide by Military/Law Enforcement, it seems that it is adequate for Self-Defense.

That being said, I strongly believe that to want is the only necessary justification any free man needs to own a firearm, and I strongly disagree with the elitist assertions of Mall Ninjas and Armchair Commandos that anyone who doesn't confirm to the status quo when it comes to selecting firearms "doesn't take personal protection seriously" as well as their disdainful attitude towards the purchase of firearms for recreational shooting.

So, do you "need" a Magnum Handgun? Probably not, unless you live in a rural area in which domestic two-legged threats pale in comparison to four-legged threats. However, if you want to own or otherwise feel more confident carrying a Magnum Handgun, then that's all the reason you need to do so.

Personally, I choose to carry .40 S&W for a number of reasons, although I feel perfectly confident otherwise carrying .380 ACP. Do I "need" to carry .40 S&W? No, but considering I've managed to survive for multiple decades without ever even having to draw a firearm, the argument could easily be made that I don't "need" to carry a firearm at all, yet I choose to carry one regardless, and a relatively powerful one at that simply because I wish to have a handgun which can reliably stop a threat should the need ever arise.

Once again, speaking objectively, there are very few "needs" when it comes to Self-Defense, but a wide variety of choices, and considering that the "need" for a civilian to carry a firearm on their person on a daily basis is a questionable proposition to begin with which ultimately comes down to individual choice based on individual factors, there's very little reason for one to limit their options based on the arbitrary opinions of others. In short, you should carry whatever you think that you might need and whatever makes you feel confident. Just make sure that you become fimilarized/efficient with whatever you choose to carry and you can't really go wrong.

Personally, I think that a .357 Magnum Revolver is a fine choice for Self-Defense, and I'm confident that response of anyone on the receiving end wouldn't be that of Oliver Twist asking; "Please sir, may I have some more?"
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Old 08-14-2020, 04:34 PM
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Free country.........Stuff it with whatever you desire.
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Old 08-14-2020, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishinfool View Post
[snip]
When I started in LE, we carried the .357 mag Remington 125 grain SJHP. It was a hot load, and was noted as the "King" of one shot handgun loads. I think it was / is because of the added velocity and tissue damage it causes. A modern bullet may expand properly, and penetrate adequately at 900 fps. But it wont cause the same physical damage as a bullet doing the same thing at about 450 fps faster.

But, as some have noted, there are trade offs in blast and recoil. So I guess it really does boil down to what one is comfortable with.

Larry
This is a perfect example. When I first started shooting .357, the ‘man-stopper’ 125gr round was what I was instructed to carry by those much more knowledgeable than I.


Looking at the only side-by-side data I can muster (gel data from LuckyGunner) it would appear that the Remington 125gr load is good for 1473fps out of a 4-inch barrel. It expands to .54 inch in their testing, and averages 13.6 inches of penetration - all perfect for the FBI requirements.


Now, the Ranger goes 921fps, .58inch, 15.1 inches...slower, fatter, deeper...and one can only assume in a more controllable manner and with less flash.


Now I doubt a fraction of an inch of expansion or tiny bit of measurable penetration means much, but would the energy dump on both ends be worth it? Is the goal not big holes deep enough?

Is the trade off of greater recoil and slower follow-ups worth anything if hole size and depth needs are met? I’d really like to know.
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Old 08-14-2020, 08:35 PM
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Depends. For some reason I shoot 357 mag better than 38 special. First of all, to be honest, I'm not a very good shot. Last time at the range was typical. I was shooting my 686 SSR at a target with 4 targets on a 8.5 x 11 piece of paper if that makes sense. At 30 feet I shot 38 at three of them and 357 at the other. My groups were 4-5 inches for the three 38 special efforts and 2.5 inches for the 357 mag. I sometimes think the extra velocity lets the bullets leave the gun before I have a chance to screw up. If I wasn't worried about over penetration, I'd use 357, just to increase my chances of hitting what I was aiming at.
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Old 08-14-2020, 09:00 PM
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Now I doubt a fraction of an inch of expansion or tiny bit of measurable penetration means much, but would the energy dump on both ends be worth it? Is the goal not big holes deep enough?

Is the trade off of greater recoil and slower follow-ups worth anything if hole size and depth needs are met? I’d really like to know.
FWIW, based on what I've been able to research, the ideas of "energy dump" or "temporary stretch cavity" caused by high velocity rounds, or shock impact, don't really become a significant factor until you get up into rifle velocities.

After shot placement, penetration is the most important factor. Even better is adequate penetration with an expanding bullet that at least has the potential of causing extra damage to tissue and mitigates the risk of overpenetration. Most of the good self defense loads on the market now for the various service calibers all deliver that.

Like everything involved in self defense, especially with handguns, it's all about compromise, and finding that balance of performance and shootability that works for you. Do some experimenting. Try different loads, calibers, guns, etc., as much as you're able to.

For me, my self defense needs are met primarily by 9mm and .38 Special, and, when I can finally get one, .380 for extra secret-squirrel discrete carry.

Just my opinion.
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Old 08-14-2020, 09:05 PM
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For people a good .38Spl is enough. But if you go into the woods I'd recommend the Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman line.

HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition
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Old 08-14-2020, 09:09 PM
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I just spent 10 or 15 minutes entering a long and detailed response, then realized that all I was doing was throwing chum in the water.

Short answer: No, you don't need magnum for self-defense use.

OK, minimal chum in the water, now all the really well informed folks can pile on and tell me how wrong I am.

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Old 08-14-2020, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
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I just spent 10 or 15 minutes entering a long and detailed response, then realized that all I was doing was throwing chum in the water.

Short answer: No, you don't need magnum or self-defense use.

OK, minimal chum in the water, now all the really well informed folks can pile on and tell me how wrong I am.
You're wrong! It should be, "No, you don't need magnum for self-defense use."

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Old 08-14-2020, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
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You're wrong! It should be, "No, you don't need magnum for self-defense use."

Correction made. Thank you!
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Old 08-14-2020, 09:23 PM
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You have to hit the target in the right spot To be effective and whatever allows you to do that is what you need most. Don’t use one myself but a 22 placed right can be very effective. Magnums can make up for poor shot placement but may not be a stopper if very poorly placed shots are all you can do.
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Old 08-14-2020, 10:25 PM
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You don't need a magnum. You also don't even need a firearm, but they both can help makes you more effective.
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Old 08-15-2020, 06:37 AM
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After watching several body cam instances where the bad guy was quite large and completey geeked up it put me to questioning, "just what is enough?"

Some of these guys were able to take several 9mm shots and keep advancing.

I've been handloading for 35+ years and I don't recall ever loading a .357 Mag round.


Oh, I've shot plenty over the years, just never cared to load them. I have thousands of .38 Special brass that I load and shoot in everything from J Frame Smith's to 6.5" 3 screw Ruger blackhawks.

Recent events got me to thinking, maybe it's time to drag out the H110 that's been reserved for .454 Casull, Ruger .45 Colt and .44 mag loads and put it to use in a smaller case.


I don't know what's enough power to stop a fully geeked thug, but the .357 seems a good choice for my neuropathy weakened grip. These day the favorite old big bores are a bit much for me to hold on to.


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Old 08-15-2020, 07:31 AM
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"Do I really need a magnum?" Yes..... it allows you the option of shooting either/both .38spl and .357 magnum from the same gun.

I carry 125gr .38sp +P hollow points in my Burb of the Burgh...... 158gr soft point .357 when hiking in Penn's Woods.

IMO a 4" Model 686 is the best utility/duty/general purpose revolver one can own...........for concealed carry a 3" 65 or 66 is the perfect balance for a gun that gets carried a lot and maybe shot.

Edit: I don't subscribe to the "one shot stop" theory..... I'm a firm believer in the "double tap".......

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Old 08-15-2020, 09:27 AM
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Definition of NEED: require (something) because it is essential or very important. "I need help now". Expressing necessity or obligation.

Definition of WANT: A wish or desire. Having a strong desire for something.

You decide.
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Old 08-15-2020, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdog View Post
After watching several body cam instances where the bad guy was quite large and completey geeked up it put me to questioning, "just what is enough?"

Some of these guys were able to take several 9mm shots and keep advancing.

I've been handloading for 35+ years and I don't recall ever loading a .357 Mag round.


Oh, I've shot plenty over the years, just never cared to load them. I have thousands of .38 Special brass that I load and shoot in everything from J Frame Smith's to 6.5" 3 screw Ruger blackhawks.

Recent events got me to thinking, maybe it's time to drag out the H110 that's been reserved for .454 Casull, Ruger .45 Colt and .44 mag loads and put it to use in a smaller case.


I don't know what's enough power to stop a fully geeked thug, but the .357 seems a good choice for my neuropathy weakened grip. These day the favorite old big bores are a bit much for me to hold on to.


A 12ga 870 cylinder bore resides by me at night.
The US Army was once faced with drugged out Moro Warriors in the Philippines who would charge soldiers and weren't stopped by the standard issue .38 Long Colt Revolver of the time, so they brought some old Colt Single Action Army Revolvers and .45 Scofield out of the arsenal which evidently yielded satisfactory results, as they went on to order the production of an autoloading pistol chambered in a .45 caliber cartridge loaded to duplicate the performance of their .45 Scofield loads, which ultimately resulted in the Colt Model of 1911 Pistol and the .45 ACP Cartridge.
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Old 08-15-2020, 10:44 AM
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I agree with BAM BAM. When I'm tooling around the hunting property or hunting, my 6" 686 loaded with 158gr JSP's is on my hip. My normal CCW is a Glock 43x w/ 124gr+p Gold Dots in an IWB holster, but when I choose to pocket carry, its a Taurus 85 snubnose with Hornady Critical Defense 110gr 38 Special+p. I dont feel "undergunned" carrying any of them.
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Old 08-15-2020, 10:52 AM
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In all of our shootings from 1980 to 1988, one hit from the 357 Federal 357B 125 grain JHP stopped the action. We carried a mix of 4" barreled 357s. Oddly, misses with that round were completely ineffective.

An officer of ours who was disarmed and fatally wounded returned fire with his 38 back-up snubbie and killed his killer with one chest hit by the 158 grain +P LHP.

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Old 08-15-2020, 10:59 AM
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No, you definitely don’t need magnums. I generally carry .38/.38 +P in J and K frames, magnums in L and N frames.
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Old 08-15-2020, 12:04 PM
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When I was young, if the revolver was chambered in 357 Magnum, then I preferred to carry it loaded with 357 Magnum ammo, usually the 125 grain JHP loads from Remington or Federal. Enter the J-frame 357 Magnums. Initially, I used 110 or 125 grain magnum ammo, but the recoil and blast was quite a bit more than when fired in a 4 inch barreled revolver! These days, I prefer 38 Special +P Short Barrel ammo for my Model 640-1. In a 4-inch barrel, I think either the 38 Special +P or 357 Short Barrel ammo are really good choices. Bullet technology has come a long way since the 1980's and 90's. I do not think it is necessary to drive modern expanding bullets to the high velocities required by older designs to achieve the same terminal performance.

Now if I'm in the woods and more concerned about a wild animal attack, 357 Magnum 158 grain hard cast semi-wadcutter or JSP ammo would be my preference.
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Old 08-15-2020, 12:34 PM
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I carry Underwood 158gr SJHPs in my Model 13 3". Extremely potent round. Practice with .38spl +p mostly. If I didn't want to carry magnums I would've bought a Model 10 instead
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Old 08-15-2020, 02:27 PM
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I agree with the need vs want bit. Most of the .357 Magnum rounds here are Remington Golden Saber which is a favorite for both of us. Significantly hotter than .38 Special but in a Smith 686 or Ruger GP100 very easy to handle.
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Old 08-15-2020, 05:33 PM
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By no means an expert but I carry the Ranger 38+p in most of my 38/357 revolvers. It shoots great, works well in my "un-scientific" backyard testing....and I picked up a good stash of it cheap a while back.
Haven't found anything that does better in 38+p...and the older I get the less excited I am to shoot full house .357s
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Old 08-15-2020, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Fishinfool View Post

But, as some have noted, there are trade offs in blast and recoil.
Don't underestimate the value of blast in stopping an assailant. There is an 80% chance that you will need a psychological stop as opposed to a physical stop. A physical stop requires a hit in the central nervous system. Anything else, even a heart shot, will require several seconds for the assailant to be forced to stop.


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So I guess it really does boil down to what one is comfortable with.
This is it. Carry as much gun as you can COMFORTABLY handle.

Personally, regular .38 Special is it for me in my 642. Even +P is too much.
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Old 08-15-2020, 11:48 PM
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357 Magnum is excellent and versatile. Problem is the capacity unless you have a S&W 627 8 rounder, 686+ 7 rounder or 586 7 rounder.

Your velocities won’t be as effective in a Snubnosed revolver but when you go 6” and up, it tends to gain velocity.

I have a Chiappa Rhino 60DS 6 Shot 357 Magnum 6”. It’s very light recoiling. It isn’t practical due to size.

I tend to like the 44 Magnum and 454 Casull, as well a the 460 Magnum and 500 Magnum, though. The advantage is the greater distance with higher velocities.

These are most but I added a few since this pic: S&W 500 Magnum 4”, S&W 500 Magnum 6.5”, S&W 460 XVR 4”, S&W 629 Performance Center 2.6” 44 Magnum, Chiappa Rhino 60DS 6 Shot 357 Magnum and some others...



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Old 08-16-2020, 01:00 AM
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I load my 2" S&W Model 12-2 with standard pressure .38 Special Winchester 130 grain "Defend" BHPs. My 4" S&W Model 65-1 is loaded with .357 Magnum Speer 135 grain "Short Barrel" GDHPs. My wife's 4" S&W Model 681 is loaded with .38 Special +P Remington 125 grain SJHPs. I'm not stressing my Model 12-2. I'm not beating up my Model 65-1. My wife doesn't have to worry about recoil at all in her Model 681.

Easy peasy.
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Old 08-17-2020, 01:08 AM
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Default .38 special for me.

I also think about what the situation/environment where I might have to discharge my weapon. I load mine with .38 standard pressure rounds. I don't think I would ever hear again if I shot a .357 magnum indoors. Sure hope that never happens and pray I'm never forced to defend myself but ready just the same.

It's challenging enough understanding all these mask wearing people. Never realized how I depended on reading lips when talking until everyone started covering them up. I really try to protect what hearing/sight I still possess.
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Old 08-17-2020, 07:31 AM
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Smith & Wesson 586 .357 169 Peak db
Smith & Wesson 686 (.357) .38 164 Peak db
If I am carrying a 38 it has +p's in it, if I am carrying a 357 it has 357's in it. As stated above a 38 +p may get a stop, I just feel that that stop will come "quicker" with a good 357. Does the 357 out of a snub sound louder in an 20' X 20', yes to me, but I will accept the 5db difference for the increased energy, never know when drug, alcohol, mental illness, anger, physical size might require a little more. The 357 has been known a a great single shot stopper for a long time. Obviously it your choice. Be Safe,
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:03 AM
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For me, 357 in a snubby would be a single shot. Then I'd be looking for the gun on the floor or in the bushes.
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Old 08-20-2020, 05:31 PM
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If I am carrying a 38 it has +p's in it, if I am carrying a 357 it has 357's in it.
Same here.

When I carry a .38 Special, it's my Colt DS with +P ammo.

When I carry my 65-3, which is most of the time, I see no need to neuter it by loading it with the same ammo I shoot in my DS. It's loaded with Winchester 145 gr. Silvertips.

As stated in an earlier post, you should carry what you're comfortable with.
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Old 08-20-2020, 06:03 PM
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No, you dont need a .357 Magnum. You need a .44 Special.
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Old 08-20-2020, 07:22 PM
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I've carried the 357 Speer Gold Dot 135 gr short barrel round in my LCR 357.

Somewhat more power than the same round in 38 +p.

I only have 5 shots so I like a bit more velocity and ME.

It's not that bad in the 17oz LCR.

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Old 08-20-2020, 08:29 PM
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removing the ammo discussion, a .357 rated revolver should be sturdier than a .38 +P rated revolver. MUCH harder to wear it out.
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Old 08-21-2020, 10:26 AM
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It is not a question of need but, one of want. Going back to the age old question that has been beaten to death around here of what round is the best, I am more of a location guy myself. Whatever round you choose, practice, practice, practice. Besides, who doesn't like the name Magnum behind their ammo, just sounds better. Go ahead, put Magnum behind anything and tell me it doesn't sound better.
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Old 08-21-2020, 12:03 PM
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It has been my observation that most people buying 357mgs shoot the cheapest 38sp they can find. This doesn’t take into consideration LEOs and those who are into SHF stuff. If you don’t have reason to use magnum ammo why would you? Same in reverse, people by a 38 or 44 special and first thing they talk about is jacking them up to magnum level loads.
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