For me, a conundrum.

John

No problem....they steal it. Thefts, and burglaries of homes and businesses. Also, there is a huge black market of stolen property, including firearms and ammunition.

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Plenty of ammo around, just not at most local stores.

Many of my co-workers have roots in North St. Louis. I'm not making this up. One guy from over there said, "Those country boys from across the river in Illinois know how to shoot. They aim. The brothers in the city just point and empty their guns." I don't think the gangsters target practice. If you think about it, that is a saving grace. They are not afraid to use their guns on people. Can you imagine the damage they could do if they had sighted-in, bolt-action 223's with decent scopes?
So, to answer your question, a box of 9mm to them is like a 5 pack of deer slugs to us. We don't waste them. We use them. For them, one box of 9mm represents a whole lot of mayhem. They don't need a lot of bullets. One box goes a long way.
I make it a point to stay out of any gun-related discussions at work.

I am guessing most criminals just carry a gun with the ammo that was in it when they stole it. Or bought it from their buddy that stole it.

If you think about various posts in this forum from 3-5 years ago there were many bragging about how much ammo they blew up on their last trip to the range.
Not so now but many of us have a fairly large stash but we just don't go & blow it as in years gone by. We've learned from the past but unfortunately sometimes its stolen as noted.
The way they shoot up Chicago & Detroit and last weekend Cincinnati, you'd swear they brew their own.

Criminals are very resourceful.

I think that's true for the most part. I worked at a site once that was close to a flood control channel. Every few nights we'd hear lots of gunfire. Keep in mind this was not only in the city, but in an area dominated by industrial business parks, so not likely to be country folk shooting on their country property. The general consensus among us was that it was gang members either practicing or trying out their guns.

On a related note, several years ago I had a firearms instructor who was also a police officer. She commented once that she wanted to teach all the gang members how to shoot so they'd hit each other instead of all the innocent bystanders nearby.

I deleted a number of posts.
Fair warning...
Politics and race are off limits.

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"I also cook."

If there is ammo in the stores to steal, it’s pretty common to go to a place like academy and open a box just to steal a few rounds, then put the box back on the shelf. This from a Louisiana cop on another forum i frequent.

They got a gun, they can find ammo.

Chad, my original post has nothing to do with either politics OR race.

Shootings seem to be WAY UP in major cities.

If WE can't find ammo, where are these "shooters" finding ammo?

John?

They get the ammo the same places they get the guns that they are not supposed to have.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Fontana, California, police say they've found an underground gang hideout and shooting range - CNN
Some do practice. The guns are frequently free and owned by the gang.

Legal or illegal, where is the ammo coming from.

I would think that during an ammo shortage crisis, shootings would go down.

John?

Maybe they are being supplied?

That's why I didn't issue an infraction or delete your post. Some of those who responded did get into politics and race and those are banned topics on this board.

I get my ammo out of my basement.

People are currently stockpiling ammunition/supplies and it's hard to find in stores or online, but that wasn't the case 6 months ago.

I've heard estimates of 300,000,000 guns in this country. There has to be tens (if not hundreds) of billions of rounds of ammunition sitting around in private and government cashes.

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"I also cook."

Most crime is done at night because bad guys are tied up all day reloading ammo for the nights deeds.

Someone mentioned the recent Cincinnati shootings. I can ensure you that ALL handgun ammo is darn near impossible to find on a store shelf in greater Cincy right now, so i doubt they just went and bought it.

Just like "drug kingpins," there are gun kingpins for tge illegal guns gangs acquire and use. They probably have ammo stockpiled. These guys are far reaching. Years ago, a local shop owner i know help bust Chicago gang bangers making the 5 hr drive from Chicago to Cincy to buy $500 Glocks that they'd sell on the streets for $2000. For the right price, they'll send runners hundreds of miles for a case of 9mm ammo.

In the old days, the bad guys would rob a National Guard Armory.... That was another source of revenue as well as their own ammo supply....

J.

The subject matter of this thread illustrates perfectly why Gun Control is such an ineffectual concept when it comes to the prevention of violent crime.

Criminals in general don't buy their guns or ammunition legally, they either steal it or buy it secondhand from other thieves.

In addition, this is why so many of the restrictions on firearms citizens can legally own are completely pointless. Criminals obviously aren't concerned if the barrel length on their Shotgun or Rifle is prohibited by the ATF.

So all that the National Firearms Act and Gun Control accomplishes is to place law-abiding citizens at a distinct disadvantage against criminals.
Fortunately, criminals aren't typically known for skilled marksmanship, much less for meticulously maintaining their firearms, and generally speaking the extent of their knowledge of firearms is minimal, so they're a far cry from being anymore of a threat than "an idiot with a gun" can be.
Heck, it honestly wouldn't surprise me if the majority of street thugs are so unfamiliar with their firearms that they could successfully be tricked by a simple ploy like "The safety is engaged." or "There isn't a round in the chamber." Heck, they'll probably be equally as likely to fall for "Your shoelace is untied." or "Your fly is unzipped." for that matter.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

They must be using FMJ almost exclusively, since so few of those actually hit die.
Another lucky coincidence may be that it’s harder to get good hits when you’re trying to shoot with one hand and hold your pants up with the other.

I'm pretty sure they all reload.

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I only take a knee for God

From my experience you usually dont find them with any reloads just what they have in the gun.

Ammo’s out there if you’re willing to pay for it. If you’ve got a grand in your pocket from selling dope it’s not too hard to come up with $50 for a box of ammo. These are people that actually carry guns and intend to use them.

I’m not buying ammo at $50 bucks a box, but if I thought someone might come and shoot up my house I’d be willing to pay $50 for some steel case Russian ammo. A few boxes of ammo will go a long ways if used only in shoot outs. The 300 rounds I put down range today would probably be a lifetime supply for many of them.

I live just outside an extremely dangerous small city. There are parts of it that the local police have almost given up on.

There’s a large online ammo distributor here that currently has 9mm ball at 80 cents plus tax per. When he has it, he can sell 10 or 20,000 rounds in a day.

Ask yourself who is buying large quantities of ammo at those prices. Certainly nobody on this forum. You won’t find me doing mag dumps at $15 each.

The Second Amendment is a two-edged sword. Because it allows the legal sale of arms and ammunition any gang members NOT convicted of felonies or otherwise under indictment can buy a gun, or more than one in locales where there are a number of gun shops.

Ammunition is even easier. There is no background check on ammunition purchases and we don't want one to exist. The flip side is that anyone can go on line and buy ammunition legally - there's always a black market but anyone can get on an ammo website, click the button that asks if you're over 18, and buy thousands of rounds of whatever caliber he and his buddies need.

If you're talking about gangs then you're talking about drugs. If you're talking about drugs then you're talking about lots of money. If you're talking about lots of money then you're talking about buying anything you need whenever you need it - do you think these folks don't have credit cards and checking accounts? All they need is one of each and one front person to keep his or her nose clean so the ammunition can be purchased.

Someone wrote above how stupid the anti-gun laws are - that's the precise point - WE are the ones negatively affected, not the East Side Marauders, the Main Street Hooligans, or the Back Country Molesters.

Then you can factor in the smuggling - if the cartels can get a ton of marijuana across the border, never mind 50 kilos of black tar heroin, they can just as easily get their salesman in the USA a supply of weapons and ammunition. Drugs and money, my friends, it's an easy deal and accomplished every day.

Random shootings of innocent people not connected to gangs is the result of the shooters being sociopaths in the same way that the gangsters of the 1920s and 1930s were criminal sociopaths. If you don't care where your bullets wind up then the only skill you need is the ability to pull the trigger, or rack the slide. After that, they are not thinking "don't point your muzzle at anything you don't want to destroy" - all they want is to destroy.

End rant...........

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Come and take it!!

The other thing about ammo is that it does not cost a lot to completely load a gun. Pre-pandemic $600 would buy 3000 rounds of ammo, enough to completely load an 187 M&P compacts or Glock 19s. But it would only pay for one of those handguns.

Ammo is expensive when you practice and use it. Being an armed criminal that carries a loaded gun that isn't fired until a crime is being committed is unfortunately a lot cheaper.

Steal gun.
Carry gun.
Shoot gun.
Ditch gun.

Repeat.

The picture I’m getting is that drug gangs (Cartels by any other name) are buying up the overpriced ammo because to them it’s still affordable, as if they’re planning a big war!

According to most of the real reporting on the topic, ammo is usually in very short supply for these people. Guns that are confiscated typically are not fully loaded and what they are loaded with is a mixture of any type of ammo they could find "steal" for the gun.

In my 13 years in the National Guard we had a bunch of M16s and M60 machine guns but never ever had a single round of Ammo in the place. For weapons practice we would go to the closest Army Post and be issued Ammo there.

I've read the same thing. But not all criminals are alike, some are small time bandits, some are part of a more organized group.

Who needs credit cards and bank accounts? I talked to a Ford salesman a few weeks ago. His story: Kid came into the dealer and bought a Continental and Lincoln Aviator for $130,000 cash. Hey, it says Legal Tender for All Debts Public and Private right on the bills, IIRC.
To be fair, the buyer might have been a farmer. Cash is still King in that business.

It’s not gang bangers buying up the ammo. It’s a lot of scared people that are buying and hoarding all they can afford. Guys brag about stock piles of ammo. I know a guy that has thousands of rounds for a 380 and that is only gun he owns. Remember 22 ammo at $8/ 50 box and worse? Who do you think ran that up? Right now there are many items that are in short supply because of CV-19. Some items because of panic buying and others because of work force/ CV-19. When demand goes up and supply goes down the prices will come up. It’s called free market.

A lot of dummies are leaving their guns in their vehicles unlocked, The Beaumont Texas police begged residents not to do that a few months back in the news media!

It’s still fairly easy to find enough 9 to shoot up the neighborhood.

Was thinking that since DAs ain’t prosecuting, perhaps LE should call in the Hells Angels to take care of business. Love em or hate em, they’re extremely patriotic and they could teach some folks a lesson. I’d pay for front row seats.

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213th FBINA

There's a guy at work who grew up in St. Louis and he likes to talk. If I see him I'll ask him this question and see what he says. His dad was a cop on the north side which is a bad area.

The way things are in some cities the best thing to do is plan you time so you can stay clear of bad areas. Most places the trouble is all in certain neighborhoods. There is no way to avoid random robbery and violence. The best advice is to stay tuned to what is going on around you. Watch where you park, think of the areas you are going to walk through, ect. Being able to avoid trouble is better than needing a gun to get though your day.

If you check some of the various gun forum classifieds, you will find a number of individuals selling ammo for 2-4 times the regular price.
Lots of ammo available, for a price.

I have watched a lot of people open up ammunition boxes at Academy and fondle the rounds. I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but there's something going on with these people that's not quite right. I've never seen anybody steal rounds, and I've never confronted them, but I have asked Academy clerks why they allow it. They just shrug. Am I the only one who thinks it's a bad idea to let the public at large rummage through ammunition. I think it's a bad idea for the same reason that bullet, powder and primer manufacturer's seal their packaging.

One thing I despise is gun stores where you have to wait your turn for an employee to “sell” you ammo. A simple tape seal on the box would help deter casual fondlers, but probably not theft.

The financial institution the dealer uses will report large cash deposits to the US Treasury dept. This info is supposed to make money laundering more difficult.

If you are trying to pick out a new round for your hunting rifle or an EDC round for your handgun why wouldn't you open up the box and look at it? I don't see where the big mystery is. Would you buy a new gun just by looking at the picture on a box or would you open it up and handle it...

Because unlike a gun there is no useful information to be learned by opening the box and looking at it.

With a gun you can learn how it handles and balances, what the trigger is like, how heavy it is, if the stock is the right length or how well the grip fits your hand, if the actions is gritty, if you like the way it looks, etc. For all those things you really need to handle the rifle and look at it instead of reading a spec sheet.

What are going to learn by handling ammo that isn't printed on the box? Just looking at it will not tell you how accurate it is in your gun, how much recoil it will produce or how well the bullet will perform on the intended target. There is no way you can open a few boxes of ammo, look at the rounds and predict which one is best.

I don't see any reason to open boxes of ammo but it doesn't bother me when I see others do that. Its more a curiosity about why so many do. Unless they put it into the wrong box it won't hurt anything.

Two comments:

Not sure there is a good or bad part of St. Louis anymore. When you lead the nation in Homicides, it is just “worse” and “worser”. I was there six weeks ago and actually appreciated the COVID keeping people off the streets.

On the traffic in stolen guns, this classic Massachusetts tale is pretty instructive and speaks to a certain fecklessness - Former Reservist Pleads Guilty to Stealing Weapons from Army Reserve Center, Escaping from Prison & Attempted Bank Robbery | USAO-MA | Department of Justice

I won’t be long, the police withdraw, bad guys fill the vacuum. Out law guns and there will be a thriving black market over night. You can’t legislate morality.

I agree, but with new unfamiliar ammo it’s nice to see what you’re buying. Perhaps manufactures should copy BB’s packaging so you can see what you’re getting without opening and fondling.

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213th FBINA

The ammo sellers at the gun shows here have a sign. You open it------You buy it. Same sign I have on My tables. I do double tape all the ammo and bullet boxes.

Back in the 90’s, when ammo was everywhere and cheap, almost every gun I took off the streets or saw somebody else taken off the streets was loaded with a less than full magazine and all different brand, weight, and ammo type. A $1500 on the street price Glock 17 would be loaded with 8 rounds of brass, aluminum, and steel cased ammo. Always wondered why. You could walk into a Dick’s Sporting Goods and buy a box of ammo for 9 bucks. Always just chalked it up to how stupid and lazy criminals are.