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Old 10-12-2020, 11:30 AM
SpikeIDMT SpikeIDMT is offline
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Default Ammo Tests Documenting Ammunition in Gel

Was looking around for one site that has easy browsing for all the popular handgun loads in various calibers that show penetration tests in gel.

This guy has done a lot of work, pretty interesting. Look up a caliber and find your favorite load. There are lots of others, but this place a lot on info on one page with links.

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/p/ammo-tests.html


for example...Speer .40 Gold Dot 155gr GDHP

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Old 10-12-2020, 12:29 PM
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Hasn't Lucky Gunner also done tests that they have on their web page as well?
Just another possibility I believe.
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:07 PM
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Lucky Gunner has done tons of ballistics gel tests.


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Old 10-12-2020, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by stansdds View Post
Lucky Gunner has done tons of ballistics gel tests.

Yeah for sure, that's where I usually go looking, I was just going to add them in too. They are probably the best.
I don't want to go looking, I wanted one link, quick looks.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/category/gel-test/

OK, my work here is done

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Old 10-12-2020, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 505Gibbs View Post
Hasn't Lucky Gunner also done tests that they have on their web page as well?
Just another possibility I believe.
But I'm always ready for more data Especially good data and maybe some new loads/calibers.
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Old 10-12-2020, 08:59 PM
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But I'm always ready for more data Especially good data and maybe some new loads/calibers.
yeah, I was looking for something different, and found it there

Beretta Bobcat shooting the CCI mini-mag .22, with some surprising results

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Old 10-13-2020, 11:17 AM
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Doctor Roberts is the first source to check.
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Old 10-13-2020, 02:52 PM
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The Luckygunner tests are fine for comparing different rounds, but they're not so good if you're trying to compare rounds to the FBI standards. The FBI used ordnance ballstics gel and Luckygunner uses clear ballistics gel. They're not equivalent. But as a general rule, rounds are going to penetrate deeper in clear ballistics gel. So if you want to see how Luckygunner tests would compare to the FBI standards, subtract a couple of inches from penetration.
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Old 10-13-2020, 06:02 PM
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Always good information to know should you get in a gunfight with a block of gel.
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Old 10-13-2020, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by cmj8591 View Post
Always good information to know should you get in a gunfight with a block of gel.
I LUV penetration tests

Reminds me when we took a bunch of guns to a desert site with old junk cars n stuff.

Remember shooting through fenders trying to crack an engine block with my .44 mag, and how 12 g slugs would blow a hole clean through truck rims when .357 would only dent them, lol
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Old 10-22-2020, 02:58 AM
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Gel testing is in my opinion, a double edged sword!

Since I did not have control of exactly what went into the Gel mixture I can not verify its consistency from block to block. There are different manufacturers, batches and of course it also depends on temperature and humidity when tested. Comparing one man's Gel Block test to another's is almost futile IMHO.

What the Gel WILL DO very well is to compare different loads from the same gun on the same day when all conditions are consistent. Since there are no bones, cartilage, organs etc. inside Gel Blocks all they will really do is compare penetration and expansion of bullets relative to each other at a certain time and temperature. Not saying that is a bad thing since we all like to see consistency of performance in our ammo, but since there are no objects for deflection or power absorption it is not an be all - end all realistic test.

There are only a very few Youtube Guys out there who have gun channels & use Gel Blocks that I respect for consistency of their methods - the rest are basically for entertainment IMO. Tennessee Outdoors and Ammo Quest are two of the best IMO. AFAIK Tenn no longer does testing.
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Old 10-22-2020, 07:37 AM
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I've often wondered why they don't make gel blocks with rib bones . . .
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Old 10-22-2020, 10:37 AM
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I've often wondered why they don't make gel blocks with rib bones . . .
Make your own at home and try it out...

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Old 10-22-2020, 10:39 AM
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Gel testing is in my opinion, a double edged sword!

Since I did not have control of exactly what went into the Gel mixture I can not verify its consistency from block to block. There are different manufacturers, batches and of course it also depends on temperature and humidity when tested. Comparing one man's Gel Block test to another's is almost futile IMHO.

What the Gel WILL DO very well is to compare different loads from the same gun on the same day when all conditions are consistent. Since there are no bones, cartilage, organs etc. inside Gel Blocks all they will really do is compare penetration and expansion of bullets relative to each other at a certain time and temperature. Not saying that is a bad thing since we all like to see consistency of performance in our ammo, but since there are no objects for deflection or power absorption it is not an be all - end all realistic test.

There are only a very few Youtube Guys out there who have gun channels & use Gel Blocks that I respect for consistency of their methods - the rest are basically for entertainment IMO. Tennessee Outdoors and Ammo Quest are two of the best IMO. AFAIK Tenn no longer does testing.

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Old 10-22-2020, 11:02 AM
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Make your own at home and try it out...
Hard to find a source for human rib bones . . .
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Old 10-22-2020, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by cmj8591 View Post
Always good information to know should you get in a gunfight with a block of gel.
Maybe the best answer.

I realize gelatin testing is a big deal to some and they put much credence in the results. However, I've often wondered just how useful that information is, especially if it comes off of YouTube. It seems to be closely aligned with armchair textbook gunfighting theory.

Such "testing" may have no more worth than handloaders obsessing over small standard deviations or small extreme spreads in velocity with the assumption that small numbers will provide the best accuracy.
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Old 10-22-2020, 11:39 AM
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Hard to find a source for human rib bones . . .

Piggies are just like humans, almost, ribs, yum!
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Old 10-22-2020, 11:59 AM
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Piggies are just like humans, almost, ribs, yum!
Then why don’t we just use pig carcasses?
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Old 10-22-2020, 12:17 PM
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FirearmsID.com - Ballistic Gelatin
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Old 10-22-2020, 12:18 PM
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Then why don’t we just use pig carcasses?
Hmmmmm let's see...gelatin block $15, whole pig $200

Next question
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Old 10-22-2020, 12:19 PM
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Hmmmmm let's see...gelatin block $15, whole pig $200

Next question
Feral hog, free . . .
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Old 10-22-2020, 12:24 PM
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Feral hog, free . . .
Apples to apples

Watch that Lucky Gunner video I put up, it explains everything
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Old 10-22-2020, 12:29 PM
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Years ago I looked up "Mouse" data for my 38 and 9mm weapons as well as looking at what the "Bull" had to offer with ammo his supporters sent to him to test out in a 3" 9mm.

It is nice to see gel test, mostly if not the clear jel and the tan stuff made with pig parts that is more like the FBI materials.....
unless the new clear has been improved.

The Tennessee gentleman uses the Pig gel in his test, also an interesting site.
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Old 10-22-2020, 01:27 PM
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I never understood people's addiction to gel test results. Give me Paul Harrel's meat target tests over gel anyday...
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Old 10-22-2020, 01:59 PM
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It explains everything from one perspective. . .

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Apples to apples

Watch that Lucky Gunner video I put up, it explains everything
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Old 10-22-2020, 02:59 PM
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Shot placement trumps everything else. Just ask that stalwart of tactics, Joe Biden. But I understand the need for gel tests by the ammo engineers. They need to have something to be able to quantify their bullet designs. I think what happens is that the shooting community tends to fixate on those results to predict how efficiently a bullet will perform in a human when they really only predict how a bullet will act in ballistic gel. There are so many factors in a gunfight that will never be able to be accounted for by any type of static test. That’s why you cannot just say that you should use any particular bullet or caliber based on the gel test alone. And when you factor in all of the politics involved in the decision of what gun and load should be selected by a large agency like the FBI, there is precious little real information that is applicable to individuals. For me, I like to look at the gel tests from the real ballistic engineers, like that Federal guy. Most of the YouTube stuff is narcissists with a video camera and an internet connection and should be dismissed on its face. I stick to the idea that big bullets make big holes and little bullets make little holes and shot placement is the most important factor in a gunfight.

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Old 10-22-2020, 04:07 PM
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Then why don’t we just use pig carcasses?
Consistency.
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Old 10-22-2020, 04:18 PM
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Again, people not understanding the reason for gel tests. chief38 got it. They're designed to compare bullets. You take bullets that have a solid track record in actual shootings, shoot those in gel, and that becomes the model performance ammo designers aim for (pun intended... ). The 12-18" parameter popularized by the FBI isn't based on actual penetration in people. A round that meets that parameter is more likely to penetrate deeply enough in people to be effective while minimizing the risk for overpenetration.

The gel is a standardized method for comparison, something you can't get with meat models because of all the possible variation in tissue density/elasticity, bone density, organ placement, level of decay, etc. Not to mention any variation between dead tissue and living tissue.

Personally, I prefer to know how rounds perform in actual shootings, which is why I use Gold Dot and HST ammo. They've established a solid track record in the calibers I use. But gel tests can be valuable if you remember they're designed as a means of standardized comparison, and a measure of potential performance in real world situations.
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Old 10-22-2020, 07:20 PM
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Again, people not understanding the reason for gel tests. chief38 got it. They're designed to compare bullets. You take bullets that have a solid track record in actual shootings, shoot those in gel, and that becomes the model performance ammo designers aim for (pun intended... ). The 12-18" parameter popularized by the FBI isn't based on actual penetration in people. A round that meets that parameter is more likely to penetrate deeply enough in people to be effective while minimizing the risk for overpenetration.

The gel is a standardized method for comparison, something you can't get with meat models because of all the possible variation in tissue density/elasticity, bone density, organ placement, level of decay, etc. Not to mention any variation between dead tissue and living tissue.

Personally, I prefer to know how rounds perform in actual shootings, which is why I use Gold Dot and HST ammo. They've established a solid track record in the calibers I use. But gel tests can be valuable if you remember they're designed as a means of standardized comparison, and a measure of potential performance in real world situations.

You have me wondering if there are any rounds with a solid track record that perform poorly in gel.


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Old 10-22-2020, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmj8591 View Post
Shot placement trumps everything else. Just ask that stalwart of tactics, Joe Biden. But I understand the need for gel tests by the ammo engineers. They need to have something to be able to quantify their bullet designs. I think what happens is that the shooting community tends to fixate on those results to predict how efficiently a bullet will perform in a human when they really only predict how a bullet will act in ballistic gel. There are so many factors in a gunfight that will never be able to be accounted for by any type of static test. That’s why you cannot just say that you should use any particular bullet or caliber based on the gel test alone. And when you factor in all of the politics involved in the decision of what gun and load should be selected by a large agency like the FBI, there is precious little real information that is applicable to individuals. For me, I like to look at the gel tests from the real ballistic engineers, like that Federal guy. Most of the YouTube stuff is narcissists with a video camera and an internet connection and should be dismissed on its face. I stick to the idea that big bullets make big holes and little bullets make little holes and shot placement is the most important factor in a gunfight.
Yes, learn to shoot well. Far, far more important than sterile bullet testing, but it requires a lot of work. Because of that necessary effort, shooting skill always seems to take a very secondary place, if it's even mentioned at all. There is likely a usefulness to gel shooting, though limited and lesser it may be.
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Old 10-22-2020, 08:10 PM
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.22 LR, for one . . .

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You have me wondering if there are any rounds with a solid track record that perform poorly in gel.


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Old 10-22-2020, 08:14 PM
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You have me wondering if there are any rounds with a solid track record that perform poorly in gel.
I haven't seen results myself, but I have read that the .38 Special 125gr Nyclad performed better in the street than the gel results would suggest. Since I favor street results, I've carried Nyclads before, still have a few boxes left, and it's still my first choice for a low-recoil self defense load. Unfortunately, it was discontinued a few years ago.

Some people have said that the Speer 135gr SB-GDHP +P barely meets the FBI standards in some gel tests, and fails in others, but it has an excellent track record in actual shootings and as a result is typically the number one recommended snubby load. It's what I currently have in my 642s.

Those are the only ones I can think of offhand that may qualify.
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Old 10-23-2020, 08:10 AM
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Gel will never be a standardized method of testing until the gel everyone uses is itself standardized...its PR hype until then and acting like it means a damn thing about how any given shot is going to effect any given threat is totally bogus. Its certainly not the end all be all of choosing a carry ammo.
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Old 10-23-2020, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by uncleted327 View Post
Gel will never be a standardized method of testing until the gel everyone uses is itself standardized...its PR hype until then and acting like it means a damn thing about how any given shot is going to effect any given threat is totally bogus. Its certainly not the end all be all of choosing a carry ammo.
But its visually entertaining as opposed to dry, boring charts and graphs.

As hairless apes we are visual creatures, probably rooted in that part of our African ancestor's brain as they descended from the trees and stood upright to watch for predators a million years ago.
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Old 10-26-2020, 01:26 PM
ElectroMotive ElectroMotive is offline
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The problem with relying on "streets" as a source is how many things can be misrepresented; both intentionally and unintentionally.

You see something happen, but you dont know why it happened.

Or worse

You see something happen, but because it doesnt meet your biases, it didnt happen

The link I posted above (and below) shows a comparison of Duxseal, an intact swine carcass, and a block of calibrated 10% bloom rated ordnance gelatin. Dr Fackler (RIP) is the shooter. FirearmsID.com - Ballistic Gelatin

And then we have the work of Gene Wolberg, at San Diego County. He pulled bullets, in this study, the Winchester 147gr JHP (Super-X), fired by LE into badguys. He measured the bullet penetration and expansion of the rounds pulled from bodies. Then fired the same bullet into proper gelatin.

http://www.lignod.com/winchester_9mm.pdf


Here's another pertinent link:

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a446543.pdf
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Old 10-26-2020, 01:46 PM
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ruggyh ruggyh is offline
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Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
Then why don’t we just use pig carcasses?
Bullet penetration on living animals and dead ones is very different.

Living tissue is much more resistant to penetration.

before live animal penetration test were banned in the US pigs were the animal of choice.
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Last edited by ruggyh; 10-26-2020 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 10-26-2020, 04:39 PM
SpikeIDMT SpikeIDMT is offline
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Originally Posted by ruggyh View Post

before live animal penetration test were banned in the US pigs were the animal of choice.
And goats

We used goats at the Academy of Health Sciences, Ft Sam Houston, TX. Combat Casualty Care Course, I was an instructor there. Way back when.

Used anesthetized goats and fired single .223 round into their hindquarters so docs could practice wound debridement on living tissue.

Healty tissue twitches when you cut around the wound, so you get a fell of how to clean it up.

Did a dozen other operative procedures after that, all the while keeping animal alive and under sedation.

Oh yeah, we had 60 Minutes crews hanging around, and protestors.

Just another day on the job for us. Camp Bullis TX was our real base where we did lots more fun things like rappelling and explosions, field work, good times.
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