38 Super

panther · #1 10-22-2020, 08:59 AM

A local shop has a Metro Arms American Classic II 1911 in 38 Super. It's in like new condition. I found out that this shop, and at least one other shop in town, have plenty of ammo in stock.
I'm real tempted to pick this up but I have never shot or owned a 38 Super before.
What can I expect from this caliber? Is it softer then 45acp? More like a 9mm?
I noticed alot of the ammo available for this right now is +P. Is that what you would use in a 1911 or is that more for a service pistol?
Thanks.

SAFireman · #2 10-22-2020, 09:13 AM

Pretty much all 38 Super is marked +p to distinguish it from ammo that would be used in the older Colt Semi auto that shot 38 ACP.

I got my first 38 Super not long ago. My dad and I shot it at a local indoor range. All I can say is - It wont be for sale any time soon, and if it is, my dad has 1st dibs. it really is a sweet shooter (even in a Commander).

jake1945 · #3 10-22-2020, 10:05 AM

Years ago I owned a Colt 38 super which was amazingly accurate at 25 yards. When I shook it, it rattled like a marble in a tin can, but, like I said it was accurate. At that time I also owned a Colt series 70 that was tight as a drum head, but was miserably inaccurate. Go figure. Wish I still had that Colt 38 super. Recoil was moderate too, like a 9mm.

Old Corp · #4 10-22-2020, 10:07 AM

About 2 years ago, I picked up a new RIA M1911-A1 'GI style' in .38 Super.
Mainly wanted it 'cuz after years of reading about the cartridge and it's history, it intrigued me. Already had 1911's in 9mm, 10mm and various .45's.

Abhorring the GI sights, first thing I did was ship the slide to Novak and have decent carry sights on it.
Got rid of the slick Junglewood grips and replaced with VZ 'double diamond' Cherrywood-look grips that look very GI-era but are very tactile.

Collected a few MecGar mags.

Saw that the RIA Supers have a fully supported chamber and started pretty intensively researching load data. Much of what's commonly available accounts for unsupported chambers and is fairly mild - not much beyond 9mm performance.

Started loading it with upper-end loads using both 115 gr and 125 gr JHP's. Hey - it's a Philippine beer-budget pistol, so I didn't expect a whole lot in the function and accuracy department.
I was sorely surprised!
Function was 100% and accuracy far beyond expectations.

The 125 gr JHP handloads are running in the same velocity range as .357 Mag., with no pressure signs.
Recoil less than real 10mm or .45.

So, I've become a fan, only problem is keeping a brass supply - it flings brass pretty far and my range is all grass, and I'm lazy about putting down a collection sheet or tarp.

Good luck.

saemetric · #5 10-22-2020, 10:15 AM

My favorite shooter 1911 in 38 Super

peh_7 · #6 10-22-2020, 10:17 AM

I have an RIA 22TCM/9mm combo that I fitted a Kart Precision 38 Super barrel to and load and shoot with 38 Super Comp. It has about the same accuracy as my Colt Gold Cup series 70 in 45ACP.

Valmet · #7 10-22-2020, 10:20 AM

.38 Super is a fantastic cartridge. Kind-of like a super-charged 9mm. Here is mine built by Frank Glenn out in Arizona.

505Gibbs · #8 10-22-2020, 10:24 AM

A 38 Super is a 9mm on significant steroids and it starts with a heavier bullet[130g vs the typical 115g for the 9mm although there are heavier 9mm weights available].
I only have one revolver BUT 2 Sigs and a Wilson 38 Super so I guess I like it!!

clang444 · #9 10-22-2020, 10:27 AM

Nice round, but expensive to feed if you don't reload.

Make sure you collect your brass if you do reload.

tndrfttom · #10 10-22-2020, 01:00 PM

The other posters have pretty well covered the power/ballistics of 38 Super cartridge. The Metro Arms American Classic II pistols are well made and reliable (another nice handgun made in the Philippines). Good spare magazines are slightly more expensive than the more popular 9mm and .45 ACP mags. I got a cheap one that wouldn't lock the slide back on the last round until the follower was adjusted. The Colt factory mags are good; MecGars too.

SweetMK · #11 10-22-2020, 01:05 PM

I had a real good friend that did a LOT of trading in guns,,
he had three Colt 38 Super pistols, and would never price one of them to me,,
He would shoot them, and brag about them,,

Well, I heard from another guy that Jim had his 38 Supers for sale,,
I called him, they were gone,,

Well, it turned out that Jim knew he had cancer, and with only months to live, finally sold the 38 Supers,,

ars1876 · #12 10-22-2020, 01:51 PM

I have 4, 2 Kimbers, Colt, RIA . Plenty of ammo out there and Star Line brass . What's not to like .

Buford57 · #13 10-22-2020, 03:09 PM

With a full mag and one up the pipe it equals my .357s with two speedloaders. EAA Witness.

panther · #14 10-22-2020, 05:34 PM

This pistol has been in the shop for 2 weeks. I took an interest in it yesterday, researched it today, went to the shop after work and they had sold it. They sold all but one box of their 38 super ammo too, $29 for a 50rd box.
You need to buy it when you find it. It's an old saying that often proves true.

vonn · #15 10-22-2020, 06:04 PM

My favorite 1911 both full and commander size! Plenty of punch and extra capacity!

SuperMan · #16 10-22-2020, 06:13 PM

[QUOTE=SAFireman;140938708}I got my first 38 Super not long ago. My dad and I shot it at a local indoor range. All I can say is - It wont be for sale any time soon, and if it is, my dad has 1st dibs. it really is a sweet shooter (even in a Commander).[/QUOTE]

Lord a Mighty where you and your Dad been!!! Best semi-auto pistol round ever and you just bought one.... ;-)

Being SuperMan...I'm the Man of Many Supers, not the other guy...

I also got intrigued with the .38 Super back in the late 1960s after reading several articles about the round but it wasn't till 1980 that I bought my first two about a week apart...an unfired 1969 SUPER .38 and a 1952 Commander. Have carried one of two 1952 Commanders just about daily ever since...

The original Colt made 1911s had a chamber that headspaced the round on the case rim not the case mouth like Colt did with the .45 ACP. This was a holdover from the way the 1903 Model was headspaced. In 1929 when Colt introduced the SUPER .38 1911 the round it shot was the .38 ACP...there was no such cartridge as a .38 Super. Short story is there ended up being the .38 ACP and the .38 Super because the hot rodded .38 ACP rounds that Remington made up beat the 1903s to death just like a .38-44 with beat up a J-Frame. Unfortunately the headspacing on the case rim lead to headspace and accuracy problems that were not solved till the late 1960s.

My two first guns were a train wreck...at 50 yards the SUPER .38 ran 3'...that is FEET groups and the Commander 18". Fortunately another member here I used to work with way back when had read a HANDLOADER MAGAZINE article describing the problem and a cure...a BarSto barrel...and the groups from the same box of ammo went to 3" for the SUPER .38 and 3.5" for the Commander. Colt did not correct the problem till 1990. No other manufacturer ever used the headspace on the case rim chamber style and most guns are superbly accurate...

Some good reading....

38 Super

Corbon

How Does

Four-Caliber STII... | 1911Forum

Trail gun perfection: Kimber's .38 super stainless target II. - Free Online Library

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...38-super/99160

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...r-loads/326242

...my #1 semi-auto round...the .41 being my favorite revolver round...

Bob

1952 Commander carried from 1980-2007
1952 Commander carried from 2007 till today
1969 SUPER .38 that was my first Super...

SuperMan · #17 10-22-2020, 06:31 PM

PS...

Super ammo although is rated +P as a poster baove said it is just to keep people with 1903 AUTOs from putting the higher velocity rounds in their guns... Unfortunately to add attorney induced insult to injury most Remington, Winchester and Federal ammo is watered down to the point it is safe to shoot in the old guns..like 1150-1275 fps in most of their loads.

"Real" .38 Super ammo starts a 125 grain bullet at 1350 fps and 115s at 1450. I am shooting Underwood 90 grain Extreme Defender that clocks 1560 from a Commander and 1640 from a 5"....best defensive and hunting ammo is made by the smaller companies...

Underwood
Buffalo Bore
Reed's Ammo
Georgia Arms

And the nice thing about a 1911 in .38 Super...add a new barrel, recoil spring and magazine in 9mm or 9x23 Winchester can you can have three rounds on one platform...

Bob

Grayfox · #18 10-22-2020, 10:18 PM

I like the .38 Super and own four of 'em. Three Colts. A Series 80 Government Model, a 1991 Combat Commander and an old 1952 Lightweight Commander. The LW suffers from the old headspace on rim problem and isn't very accurate.

However the other two are fine shooters.

I also own a Rock Island Armory 1911A1 in .38 Super. Found it cheap at a gun show. That poor thing was a jam-o-matic. I discovered that the cases were hanging up in the breach face. I suspect they made those with 9mm slides. I opened up the breach face ever so slightly for the semi-rimmed Super cartridge and its run like a champ ever since.

stansdds · #19 10-23-2020, 09:24 AM

The Colt 38 Super cartridge is what the 9mm Luger cartridge wants to be when it grows up. Seriously, the 38 Super provides ballistics of the 9mm +P+ and perhaps just a tiny bit more.

Old Corp · #20 10-23-2020, 09:38 AM

I like to think of the modern .38 Super, loaded properly, as sort of a straight-case version of the .357 SIG.
The agencies I know that use the .357 SIG have had excellent results from the cartridge's performance.

minconrevo · #21 10-23-2020, 10:13 AM

The 38 Super is basically the same cartridge overall length as the .45 ACP so it feeds well. It's an accurate cartridge and relatively easy to reload. Brass reload life is good. Uses same bullet diameter as 9mm (.355) in modern American barrels. At full Plus P pressures it's a serious cartridge with low recoil. Dialed back it's a soft shooter. A carefully fitted custom gun in the caliber is capable of 1.5" groups at 50 yards.

jjfitch · #22 10-23-2020, 10:17 AM

"Metro Arms American Classic II 1911 in 38 Super" A great value!

38 Super! What 9mm, 45ACP and +P 38 Special wish they could be!

A powerful cartridge that runs smooth as silk in the 1911 plus a couple extra rounds !

What's not to love!

Smiles,

.38SuperMan · #23 10-23-2020, 10:44 AM

Another fan of 38 Super. I shot a custom 38 Super race gun in IPSC for years and grew to love the versatility and accuracy of the cartridge. I got out of IPSC it still have 2 supers. One is a Colt XSE LW commander and the other, many favorite, a Kimber Eclipse Target. The Eclipse has a supported chamber so it will handle hot loads. I had about a thousand rounds of major loads left from my IPSC days and needed something to shoot them in and discovered the Kimber. I made a call to Kimber to see if they thought the gun would be ok to shoot them in and they said there was no problem.

My loads were pushing a 125gr jacketed bullet around 1400fps so I increased the recoil spring to 20# and placed a shock buffer in it. The frame is steel which is a big plus too. Hot loads can be hard on guns especially alloy frames. My race gun had a Caspian high capacity frame what was alloy. Granted I ran tens of thousands of hot rounds through it and always ran a shock buffer but eventually the frame cracked. I’m not shooting the volume of hot loads but want to make sure I don’t damage the frames on these.

If you shoot much 38 super you really need to load your own. That’s the only way you’ll enjoy the versatility and accuracy of the cartridge. If you do load and want to shoot hot loads I’d strongly recommend a supported chamber barrel with a heavier recoil spring and shock buffer.

Old Corp · #24 10-23-2020, 10:49 AM

^ Agree. The Super is one of the many cartridges I'd never consider owning and shooting if I didn't load. Same with 10mm, .41, .44 Spl., .45 Colt and I'm sure I'm missing some....

Borderboss · #25 10-23-2020, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by .38SuperMan

Another fan of 38 Super. I shot a custom 38 Super race gun in IPSC for years and grew to love the versatility and accuracy of the cartridge. I got out of IPSC it still have 2 supers. One is a Colt XSE LW commander and the other, many favorite, a Kimber Eclipse Target. The Eclipse has a supported chamber so it will handle hot loads. I had about a thousand rounds of major loads left from my IPSC days and needed something to shoot them in and discovered the Kimber. I made a call to Kimber to see if they thought the gun would be ok to shoot them in and they said there was no problem.

My loads were pushing a 125gr jacketed bullet around 1400fps so I increased the recoil spring to 20# and placed a shock buffer in it. The frame is steel which is a big plus too. Hot loads can be hard on guns especially alloy frames. My race gun had a Caspian high capacity frame what was alloy. Granted I ran tens of thousands of hot rounds through it and always ran a shock buffer but eventually the frame cracked. I’m not shooting the volume of hot loads but want to make sure I don’t damage the frames on these.

If you shoot much 38 super you really need to load your own. That’s the only way you’ll enjoy the versatility and accuracy of the cartridge. If you do load and want to shoot hot loads I’d strongly recommend a supported chamber barrel with a heavier recoil spring and shock buffer.

My story is about the same as yours. My .38 Super is an IPSC race gun I used in the 1990s. It's a Para Ordnance frame with a Caspian slide. I'm having it converted now to more of an IPSC Limited / IDPA gun that I could carry if I wanted to, using a Nowlin barrel and Hi-Viz sights. I still have a couple of hundred rounds of IPSC Major loads that I'll shoot in it, but otherwise it'll be factory ammo and similar handloads.

I really love the gun and the cartridge. I also love that the Para magazines hold 21 rounds, so plenty of firepower.

Having the gun converted to something I'll shoot more often will get me back into handloading. I have 5,000 pieces of brand new Starline .38S brass that I bought 25 years ago that have never been out of the plastic bag, along with thousands of .355 jacketed and plated bullets. Now I'm going to have to remember how to use the reloading machine!

CH4 · #26 10-23-2020, 12:45 PM

The .38s is definitely a much overlooked cartridge by the general shooting population. I love shooting the .38s, especially in my DW Specialist. I would like to find a P220 in .38s with modern style mag release.

Cdog · #27 10-23-2020, 02:53 PM

I've had one of the Metro Arms 1911's chambered in .45ACP. I remember it being a very impressive pistol, especially for the price.

I've had several 1911's chambered in .38 Super. Still own one.

Handloading I've shot bullets ranging from 115gr .355" to 158gr .357" with great results.

.38SuperMan · #28 10-23-2020, 06:04 PM

You can load 9mm up to major power factors and a lot of folks do now but I think it’s a little risky. I think 38super is a good compromise and much easier to load that hot. Still I wouldn’t do it if my barrel wasn’t supported. I would never feed the major loads I’ve shot in my Kimber or Caspian into my Colt. One, I wouldn’t want to give the alloy frame that kind of beating and two the barrel isn’t ramped. Unramped / supported chambers increase the likelihood of a blown case.

9x23 would be even better but I’m so deep in 38s I see no reason to change. One thing though that I would love to see is a compact / officers size steel frame pistol with 3” barrel chambered in 38s. I’m guessing one would have to be custom. Actually a 3” compact 38s with A short single chamber compensator and ramped barrel would be very sweet. I’d seriously be tempted if one came along.

BLUEDOT37 · #29 10-24-2020, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Corp

I like to think of the modern .38 Super, loaded properly, as sort of a straight-case version of the .357 SIG.

The 38 Super +P is essentially the straight walled version of the (tapered) 9x23.

And the rimless 38 Super Comp takes it a step closer by eliminating the 38S+P's semi-rim.

The 38 Super+P & the 38 Super Com are essentially identical except for the 38S+P's extra dry weight due to it semi-rim.

The 9x23 has 1.1% less H²O capacity, than the 38SC, despite it's 3.1% greater dry weight due to strengthening to handle it's higher pressures (55K psi -vs- 36.5K psi).

I got hooked on the "hyper 9mms" when I started loading for the 356TSW (9x21.5mm) but I like the extra case capacity of the longer cases & using them in the 1911/2011 frames.

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SuperMan · #30 10-24-2020, 08:28 AM

NICE to see so many people shooting .38 Super...

Grayfox...you really need to have a properly headspaced barrel fitted to that Commander... It won't change the value at all as nothing has to be done to the gun to fit the barrel so the old parts can just drop back in...

What's nice about the .38 Super over the 9mm and 9x23 is that being a straight walled case it can take bullets of any size (.355/.356/.357/.358) and weights up to 180 grains. Hornady even lists many of their .357 bullets for use in the .38 Super in their reloading manual. The 9x23 can only run bullets up to 147 grains and then the bullet should have a tapered base rather than flat as by the time one made LOA it can bulge the web of the case as it is so heavily constructed to take factory pressure in non-ramped barrels...

Anyone have any .38 Super revolvers??? I've had two 686-7s, still have one, and a 627, that unfortunately was not very accurate and went down the road...

In addition I sent extra cylinders to TK Custom to be milled and rechambered for .38 Super for a 649, 60-10 and 3" 66-2 3"...all are great shooters...

I think having a straight walled case that the Super makes a better snubbie round than 9mm. Every 9mm snubbie I've had from S&W and Ruger would only take standard pressure rounds. +P would lock up the cylinder...

Bob

.38SuperMan · #31 10-24-2020, 08:42 AM

I’m not recommending anyone try this but I’ve read several accounts of people firing 38s cartridges in N frame 357’s. Out of curiosity I dropped six 38 supers in my model 28-2 and they fit like it was made to shoot them. But!!! I’m not going to try. Anyway I’m not sure how accurate it would be. I have a Ruger Blackhawk 357/9 convertible and 9mm Isn’t terribly accurate in it.

SuperMan · #32 10-25-2020, 06:19 AM

..it can be done...but one doesn't need an N-frame... I used to do it with a nickel Model 36... Which one did you put in your gun...or was it some reloads? If you look the headspace is quite wide...

That said there was only one .38 Super round that would fit in a .38/.357 chamber and that was the Winchester Silvertip. From what I have read there is also one imported brand that will but I don't recall which one.

Bob