I am the happy owner of a S&W .38 Model 15-3. I see two different .38 cartridges mentioned for this revolver. Is there a difference? What is recommended? I just purchased some Norma .38 Special cartridges and hope they will work. Thanks and stay safe.

Two different cartridges .38 S&W is fatter and should not fit in a .38 special

I appreciate your optimistic attitude that you will have so many choices of 38 special to shoot in this revolver.

The .38S&W is a nearly obsolete cartridge that was first developed by S&W for the .38 single action first model top break 'Baby Russian' revolver in about 1876. It was originally a black powder cartridge. It uses a non-standard .360 diameter bullet. The cartridge is shorter and fatter than a .38 Special.
The British chose this cartridge with a different bullet and smokeless powder as their standard sidearm just before WW2. The late pre-war Hand Ejectors and the wartime Victory models that shipped to commonwealth countries were chambered in this. They called it the .38-200 round.

The .38 S&W Special was developed in 1899 using modern smokeless powder and a .357-358 diameter bullet. It was (and still is) a very common chambering in the U.S.

.38S&W is still sometimes produced in very limited quantities by Rem and Win. It's VERY hard to find.

.38 S&W Special, prior to the current ammo craziness was on par with 9mm for low cost and high availability.

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

Shop Hard! When you find some 38 Special with a price you can tolerate, buy it!
I recently bought 3 -300 Round PMC Battle Packs.
132 Grain. Have shot a fair amount of 130, never shot any 132!
But I will now!

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What is considered a good price? I have some I purchased at $0.32 per cartridge back about three years ago. My recent purchase was at $0.70 per.

AS far as I am concerned anything over $10 / 50 rounds for range ammo is high / outrageous. But then again I am really old.

....I did shoot wadcutters, but I had no qualms about shooting jhp ammo at the range every time I went.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Sadly, that is the going rate for practice/range ammo of all common centerfire cartridges, with no relief in sight.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

In my area, $50.00 / box of 50 would be expected. The problem is that there isn't any around to be bought right now.
A couple months ago I was buying it in the range of $16 ~ $20

I never bothered to set up for reloading .38 Special or 9mm because it was always cheaper to buy than make.
Wow times have changed! I probably have dies that I could make work.
I've never kept 9mm brass at the range (thousands and thousands of spent rounds) over the years. I only bothered to keep .38 Special maybe half the time. If I did a tactical reload on a K frame, I usually just dropped the brass and forgot it. :-(

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

On the right side of the barrel you should see a stamp that says something like “38 S&W Special Ctg”. That is 38 special. Again if in doubt find one or two 38 S&W cartridges (not special) and see if they fit. Better still take it to a competent armorer or pistol smith for a checkup!

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Member NRA, KSRA, & USCCA

It's a Model 15, so no thoughts about "nearly obsolete" .38 SW need to enter the discussion. Fire away with any .38 Special factory ammo you have, including the not-so-dreaded +P. They will all work, although the point of impact may vary somewhat depending on the load. I prefer to shoot 158 grain lead in mine for best accuracy.

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

A 38 S&W cartridge will not fit in a model 15 which requires S&W 38 Special. Different animals.

Attached Images

38 s-w_38 spl_stamp.jpg (25.4 KB, 109 views)

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Pay attention...it pays to win

I have dies and components to reload both special and S&W .38. I have an ex British empire victory model that was totally thrashed looking and I refurbed and refinished it.(60$, SOGD) I bought exactly one box of 150 gr. LRN for it. I bought 200 gr LRN bullets to reload for it and also the right diameter 200 gr. to use in special, also. They shot well from the old victory model and I want to load some Super Police equivalents for special. I would think that the heavy bullet from S&W loaded to it's potential would be equivalent or better than wadcutters from a special, which some people recommend for defense for recoil shy shooters. And the victory has a 5 inch barrel in the UK version for a little more MV.

As noted above, they are TWO different cartridges. I load for both. I can say, while 39special bullets have, and no doubt are use in reloading the .38S&W, the results can be less than stellar. My bullets as sized by PENN bullets are the 'correct' size, .360 -- if found on the shelf, the cost has a wide spread, up to recently. These days, as noted above, any ammo is a hard find. .38 S&W up to recent could be found foe $19. a box For PPU & Mag- Tech, to $43.00 a box for Winchesters. Rem., which I guess is no more, was $23.00 to $33.00 a box. I just finished loading 1000 rounds of these and my cost using on hand components is $3.50 @ box of fifty. I have plenty of 38spl's loaded on hand and my cost is about the same, maybe a bit less. Brass is a moot point for either one and some of my .38S&W have been loaded over ten times a box. 38spl, even more so. Last brass I acquired was a case of once fire Federal brass that was free. Even though nickel, I took'ed I have more firearms that use .38 S&W than I do that use .38spl. Once again- they are NOT interchangeable. The .38 S&W is far from dead around here and I believe elsewhere, which will come to your attention if you search around. Much of the information out there for the 38S&W is, in my opinion not up to snuff- depending on who you talk to.

actually a 38 special and even a 357 magnum can chamber a 38 smith and wesson cartridge.

two reasons for that.

1. SAAMI upper tolerance limits for the special/magnum chamber are just at the same spec for a sw chamber

2. I dont know if current companies are using correct brass, or just using special brass/38 colt cut to size with a sw head stamp

Interesting post and information. I am not sure about source of information, so I have to experiment for myself. I even tried the old, boiling water freezes faster than room temperature water story that has been told for decades. This is not accurate. With the above thread I decided to try for myself. My dad had a model 36 S&W that he carried for protection. In 35 years, he never fired it. When he gave it to me it was loaded with 38 S&W ammo. When I explained he had the wrong ammo, we decided to shoot it. The gun he carried on many dangerous roads and situations, would not fire. It wasn't the ammo but the gun that would not work. Brand new model 36 would not fire with any ammo. That is another story all together.
So, for this experiment I grabbed my 38 S&W cartridge collection containing 45 different loads from old black powder to British WW2 fmj to modern offerings from Remington and Winchester.
I then grabbed 3 revolvers. A Colt Detective Special, a model 36 S&W both chambered in 38 Special and a S&W model 13 chambered in 357 Magnum. I tried various 38 S&W ammo in each gun and in different chambers of the different guns. The following results were obtained.

In the Colt Detective Special no 38 S&W load would chamber or even get close to chambering.
In the S&W model 36 several loading would completely chamber and the cylinder close. Not all chambers or all loads would but a fair amount would.
In the S&W model 13 chambered in 357, many of the 38 S&W's would chamber quite easily. Only a handful wouldn't. Also noticed that the chambers were note uniform on either S&W revolvers as some chambers would accept certain rounds while others would not. The Colt was adamant about not chambering any and none were close to chambering.

Limited experiment but might be relevant to this conversation.

And then to confuse the issue there’s this poor old Smith. A .38 S&W Victory that was rechambered to .38 spcl. When you fire .38 spcl you can see the step in the longer brass.

Attached Images

931106EB-049C-4503-B97E-2643D3A74290.jpeg (187.7 KB, 36 views)

Apples & Oranges! Two different cartridges that are not designed to be interchanged. Don't know where the OP got the idea that they were the same...?

P.S. Whether they can chamber is a different subject that really does not affect the above.

You can use 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt and 38 Special in the M15, or any gun chambered for 38 Special. They are designed to fit correctly, being shorter versions of 38 Special.

Usually, 38 Super will fit a 38 or 357 chamber, as well. Those are best used in moon clip guns, though not recommended to do.

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protocalldesign.com

YEt i have access to a several boxes of 38 smith and wesson that was made since 2015, by remington, that chamber in a 357 made in 2010

Proprietary cartridges were very common prior to WW2. Major firearms manufacturers produced firearms chambered for their own cartridge designs, and generally resisted offering competing cartridge chamberings. Basically, the gun makers were reluctant to advertise or admit that another company's cartridge design might be as good or better than their own proprietary designs. This also allowed some measure of locking up future sales of ammunition for the guns sold.

.38 S&W Special was developed as an improvement over the earlier .38 Long Colt, which was already in Army service and popular in civilian sales as well. Smith & Wesson inserted the "S&W" into the new cartridge designation as a means of distinguishing the new cartridge as a Smith & Wesson proprietary design (why give a competitor, Colt, any credit?).

Known far more commonly today as simply .38 Special, and standardized as such by SAAMI (the industry standard-setter since about 1960). In addition to the longer cartridge case and greater powder capacity, the .38 Special uses inside-lubricated bullets instead of the earlier heeled-base design with larger forward diameter and exposed waxy lubricant outside the case.

The .38 Colt (short and long) evolved with the earlier conversions of .36 caliber Colt percussion revolvers to cartridge guns, initially as rim-fire until center-fire cartridges became the norm. Those early revolvers typically had bore diameters of .36 caliber and rifling grooves of about .370-.375", so the heeled-bullet of larger diameter to provide better gas sealing when fired. The newer .38 Special with inside-lubed bullets allowed (demanded) a smaller bore & groove diameter for the bullet diameter that fit entirely within the cartridge case.

Confusing to many folks, but easy to understand when the period of cartridge arms development took place. Lots of different ideas and approaches, lots of poaching by manufacturers as they saw a competitor come to market with a useful development or improvement. During the same period many of the proprietary cartridges developed new nomenclature, allowing more makers to offer arms for popular calibers without crediting the original maker (.44 WCF became .44-40, .32 WCF became .32-20, .30 WCF became .30-30, and others as gun makers other than the original designers sold their own guns in other makers' cartridge designs).

Marketing ploys, horning in on older proprietary markets.

The original .38 Colt Center-Fire became the .38 Short Colt and .38 Long Colt, then evolved into the .38 Special, then to the .357 Magnum, and eventually to the .357 Maximum. All used the same case head, rim dimensions, case diameter, etc, beginning about 1872 and continuing on today.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

LOBO is entirely correct about the confusion in cartridge name. In the spirit of keeping this thread going, lets mention a few more. It was Savage that came up with the 30-30 name as they wanted to chamber for it but not use Winchester name. So instead of 30 WCF they came up with the 30-30 name. Winchester finally caved in around 1950 and for the first time started using the term 30-30. They also at this time went from 270 WCF to 270 Win. Winchester was a little miffed at having to rename cartridges they invented just to make it easier on others. Like Henry Ford's positive ground battery system which was far superior to the negative ground systems other manufactures were using, they too bowed to pressure @1959 and standardized and went to negative ground. Winchester never produced and rifle with the 44-40 on the barrel as they had quit producing guns so chambered before the 1950 change IIRC. Then there is the 30-06. It was not till @1933 that the first ammunition manufacturers used the term 30-06. On Remington guns so chamber and ammunition they produced marked theirs 30 Springfield. While Winchester continued till 1950 chamber marking their 30-06's as 30 Gov't 06. Can easily understand the confusion. And lastly to add some more confusion, most people think Winchester's WCF stood for Winchester Center Fire. Close but no cigar. The C stood for central not center.

Lots of explanations, but one simple answer. 38 S&W will not fit in an unaltered 38 Special revolver. 38 Special will not fit in an unaltered 38 S&W cylinder either.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Hafta add my 2 cents. The ammo sold by Remington as "target" or "wheelgun" ammo fits both of my model 14s. No more than a mild push to seat any of the rounds. They fire without incident, very accurately I might add, and are only a little sticky upon extraction. I have not tried them in my 1905 Target or in any .357s. Winchester and Magtech ammo will not fit my 14s, so I lay the situation with Remington, who must size their ammo at the minimum diameter allowed.

"The .38 S&W Special was developed in 1899 using modern smokeless powder..."

No, the .38 Special was originally developed as a BP cartridge which held more BP than the .38 LC due to its longer case. That's what "Special" means, a .38 LC case, but elongated to hold more BP. However, the .38 Special came out at a time when the use of smokeless powder was gaining traction rapidly, and it wasn't very long, perhaps within a year, before it was being factory loaded with smokeless powder. Factories continued to load BP .38 Special rounds until well into the 1930s, although I cannot imagine who would have wanted to buy them. The ballistics of the BP .38 Special loads were about the same as the smokeless loads. Keeping ballistics the same may have been the intent.

It is absolutely possible to find some .38 Special revolvers which will chamber some .38 S&W cartridges (not just rebored BSR Victories) and the same is true with .38 Super. Also, some .38 Special revolvers will chamber and fire some brands of .38 Super cartridges. I have a friend who owns a Ruger Security Six, and both .38 S&W and .38 Super cartridges will chamber in it. Sloppy chamber and/or ammo tolerances I suppose. I have always used .38 Super dies to reload .38 S&W, as case diameters are very close. Having fired numerous .38 Super factory rounds in different .38 Special/.357 revolvers, I have observed that they seem somewhat mild, but I have never chronographed them.

When buying ammo for your model 15 ... ONLY buy ammo that is designated as 38 Special !
There are a bunch of rounds that say 38 but whats important are the words that follow 38 ... none of the following will fit in a 38 Special :

38 Short Colt
38 Colt
38 Long Colt (the 38 LC will chamber and can be fired in a 38 special but is low powered and hard to find)
38 S&W (Smith & Wesson)
38 Colt New Police
38 AMU
38-40 Winchester
38 Super
I'm sure there are several others ...but remember ...only buy 38 Special!
You will most often find 38 S&W but in 5 different 38/357 revolvers I have ...none would completely chamber ...they go in about 1/2 way at most and stop ... it no works .

I know all this is confusing ... but hang in there and learn all you can ...in no time you'll be an "Expert" !
Gary

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Sloppy chamber indeed! I should know that with S&W you should not use the words never or always. When McShooty mentioned post-WWII Masterpiece revolvers taking 38 S&W, I had to check mine. The tolerances pre-WWII seem to be very close to SAAMI chamber specs, in which the 38 Special chamber is smaller than the 38 S&W cartridge, BUT when checking three K38s, I found one that chambered 38 S&W. Two of these guns were 1951 and one was 1948 vintage. The issue with Remington ammo fitting into the chamber of a post-WWII S&W may actually be an issue of sloppy tolerances when finishing the chambers, or a change in dimensions for finishing a K frame cylinders post WWII?

I am attaching SAAMI specs for chambers and cartridges in 38 S&W and 38 Special, as well as some revolvers that I pulled to check 38 S&W fit. I have no pre-WWII that will allow the larger cartridge to chamber.

As far as 38 Special fitting into a 38 S&W chamber, that is a more solid case, since the shoulder in the 38 S&W chamber will not allow the long 38 Special to fit. If the chambers were bored straight through, a 38 Special will fit the WWII K frames, but a LRN is too long for a top-break 38 revolver. A wadcutter, on the other hand, is actually shorter than the top-break cylinders and would chamber if the chambers were bored through. I am sure somebody tried that back in the day, so can't even say "never" for the top-breaks.

Attached Images

	P1010002.jpg (116.4 KB, 115 views)
	P1010003.jpg (112.7 KB, 113 views)
	SAAMI 38 S&W.jpg (131.0 KB, 113 views)
	SAAMI 38 Special.jpg (135.7 KB, 113 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

"There are a bunch of rounds that say 38 but whats important are the words that follow 38 ... none of the following will fit in a 38 Special :

38 Short Colt
38 Colt
38 Long Colt (the 38 LC will chamber and can be fired in a 38 special but is low powered and hard to find)
38 S&W (Smith & Wesson)
38 Colt New Police
38 AMU
38-40 Winchester
38 Super"

The .38 Short Colt is dimensionlly identical to the .38 Special and .38 LC, just shorter. It will chamber and fire OK in any .38 Special revolver. It is ideal for use in .38 Special snubbies that have a short extractor rod. I believe it is still loaded today, but it has about the same performance (and appearance) as the .38 S&W. It's a cartridge which deserves to be more popular. The .38 Colt is a different animal, and has a smaller case diameter. It is also long-obsolete. While it would chamber in a .38 Special revolver, it would not be a good idea to shoot it even if you had some.

The .38 AMU is just a .38 Special case with a semi-rim to work in semi-auto pistols. At one time, back in the later 1960s, I came into a large number of .38 AMU fired cases from the USMC Quantico range. I reloaded them for use in .38 Special revolvers, and they worked just fine as the semi-rim had enough diameter to keep the case in the chamber. It's unlikely anyone will ever find any of them today, as they were not many made, only for a short time, and only by Remington for the Army.

Stuff some 357mag ammo in it, and hope for the best! 38spl is the revolver equivalent of the auto's 9mm, ANEMIC. You got the right idea though, K frame/4"bbl, Model 19 and you'll be all set👍🏻You can thank me later.😉