Thought you ammo folks might be interested in what the FBI issues agents for training/service 9mm ammo right now.
Enjoy,
Chuck

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SWCA1517 SWHF256
Rangers LTW!

That Federal load seems like the "TMJ, Total Metal Jacket" of their cousins from Speer Lawman.

I have 135 plus P. in the flex lock is it the same .also , the Speer L/E FBI 147 G/2but I never shoot much of it . . You would think the red rubber filler would catch on the ramp ????????

I am guessing that in a full 9mm pistol that 135 +P might be doing around 1100 fps but the 147 for target use might be down loaded to 888 fps for better control.

It will be interesting to see what the numbers turn up to be in those loads for the FBI training.
I prefer the Speer 147 over the Berry, since more powder can fit into the little 9mm case with a OAL of 1.13".

There's a bunch of the Hornady stuff on GB being sold for $90-100/box. Doesn't have the "FBI" nomenclature but does say LE only.

I wonder if it's any different. Description is same, but SKU is different.

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aka "Mooncat"

Interesting. Last I heard anything about their duty ammo was that they were using the upgraded Speer 147gr Gold Dot G2 ammo.

No, the G2 lasted about a year was all. The Hornady was supposedly the preferred round from the beginning, but contract bidding issues kept it from winning the contract. These boxes are from a FBI field office. This was the packaging for the Hornady in 2018. I do not have the 45. Supposedly, all 45s are being phased out to include personally owned.

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I have a 1.0 Shield 9. It is my only 9mm pistol. It is somewhat ammo-picky, and it has had several failures to feed or eject with a few popular self-defense rounds. For example, it has a 10% FTF rate with HST 124g rounds, which tend to hang up on the feed ramp. On the other hand, it has fired nearly 400 rounds of Hornady Critical Duty 135g +P ammo without a single failure, so that is what I carry. It could be that the filled-in hollow points actually reduce the chance of the bullet getting hung up on the feed ramp, thus enhancing reliability. Maybe that's why the FBI chose it.

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What, me worry?

Straight from the mouth of an agent in the FBI’s firearms unit, criteria required consistent expansion and penetration. If a particular bullet didn’t expand the same diameter every time, and penetrate the same depth every time, The load would not be considered.

They didn’t want a bullet that expanded but expanded to different dimensions each time nor one that stood the chance of over penetrating. In a perfect world, every bullet fired would expand to .60 and penetrate 15” each and every time.

Believe it or not, I never heard any of them say the load had to cycle reliably. I’m sure it was a given that it was a requirement and would be booted out of the running if not reliable.

Something else I just remembered, a requirement was set forth that the loads perform the same regardless of the geographical location. It had to perform the exact same in Miami, Fl and Utqiagvik, AK.

I love comments that second guess massive procurement test and evaluation projects. Every law enforcement agency I know of is issuing Critical Duty. It’s the new gold standard for duty ammo. And it runs like a sewing machine thru every pistol I have.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

These discussions quickly become obsessive threads of the easy chair textbook experts. FBI reports on tested ammo might be very worthwhile, but you, your gun, and the best ammo for it and for you may not be close to what the FBI came up with. So many look for the easy way, but to do it right requires some actual shooting of various ammos. If an ammo functions perfectly, is accurate, recovery from recoil is quick, and you consistently hit what you aim at, that's your ammo. All other considerations like bullet style, jello performance, etc. become very secondary. How many times has this been covered here and elsewhere?

That's god to know , and I can believe that I think the Fed HST stuff is a safe bet in what ever caliber.

The HST is probably the most widely used load in the US right now behind Speer Gold Dots. There is no reason not to use it.

Haven't heard of any progress on bidding for the new CA state ammunition contract. Last time it was awarded to Vista.

In 9, .40 & .45 any agency customers could choose either Fed HST or Speer GDHP; in .357SIG it was only GDHP; .38SPL was Speer (Ball & JHP); 12GA was Fed; and .223/5.56 was either Fed or Speer, w/various loads available.

Ammo contracts change, for various reasons.

Right now being able to get something delivered is a significant consideration.

From what I've been hearing, among my area, HST has been seeing significant LE sales at the state & local level, mostly because it's less expensive than Gold Dot.

I'm not as much of an ammo snob as I was as a younger man (including when I was an earnest young firearms instructor and armorer ). I have an assortment of the major newer ammo designs, and also have my fair share of older designs/production put back as rainy day ammo.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Blah, Blah, Blah.....'You Want Miracles? I Give You The F-B-I'

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SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

The Hornady Critical Duty ammo says "Law Enforcement Only".
Does this include LEOSA?

Best,
Rick

FWIW, I'm using HST in 9mm and .45, with SB-GDHP in .38 Special.

The same load is (was) available to the general public, but 50 round boxes are hard to find . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

So do the 50 round boxes of Federal 147gr P9HST2 I buy, and they are unobtainable in retail stores around here, but I've ordered them online. I'm not LEO and the "LEO only" label isn't anything legal for end users to be concerned about.

I haven't been around any FBI agents for 25 years or so. Are they still wearing 3-button business suits, crisp white shirts, boring neckties, and snap-brim fedoras?

So many new options in wardrobe and accessories. Must be difficult to keep up.

I've bought a lot of 50 round Winchester Ranger T ammo from SOSS.

They won't sell the new above ammo to anyone unless you have some kinda proof your LEO. But if you go to their section of vintage/used ammo you can buy all the 50 round boxes of Ranger T you want in 9 and 40 that's police trade in ammo.

At least back in the day when you could buy ammo.

Do they make special runs of HST ammo for LEO or military?

I have several 50 round plain white boxes of it, and is brass cases instead of nickel.

I'm certain the 2 Special Agents with families, including kids aged 4-11, that died in Ft Lauderdale while attempting to serve a search warrant in a crimes against children case weren't dressed as you suggested. I'm assuming you wouldn't be either.
Chuck

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SWCA1517 SWHF256
Rangers LTW!

This may be a bit of a branch from the main topic, but what about the late, but once highly touted Lawman ammo from CCI back in the '80s? Was it really anything like as good as its advertising would lead one to believe?

And of course there was the Black Talon of the next decade...

It seems like we are always chasing the "Next BEST Thing."

Froggie

The new 2015 Speer Gold Dot 147 gr ammo was at the Salt Lake, Utah seminar, where LE personnel could learn about it.
The one problem with this load, was that it needed a 6" barrel to get a working fps and most LE carry a 4 or maybe a 5" pistol.

FWIW, Lawman is still my go-to range ammo. I only get something else if I can't find it.

Is Lawman still in production or are you shooting old stock? I just have a single sealed box each of 9mm (50 rd) and 45 (25 rd) that I found in Dad’s stash after he passed. These were the fancy yellow plastic boxes.

Froggie

OK, I looked it up and Speer is making full jacket flat point rounds and calling them “Lawman.” I was referring to the ones from the eighties that had massive hollow points. I’ve heard them called “Flying Ashtrays.”

Froggie

Gotcha. No, I was posting about the TMJ rounds. I know of the "Flying Ashtray" rounds, but either didn't know or forgot they were called Lawman. I may be mistaken, but I believe those rounds eventually evolved into the Gold Dots. Maybe. *shrug*

That was good ammo, assuming it would reliably feed.

I don't know what the FBI currently uses nor do I really care. What has earned itself a good reputation in actual use are the Federal HST, the Speer Gold Dot (not the Gold Dot 2), and the Winchester Ranger T loads. Thankfully, I have some of these loads on hand and I practice with them very, very sparingly these days as they are now pretty much unobtainable, at least at anything near reasonable cost.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

I offer my most sincere apology to those who found my bit of FBI humor offensive.

Apology accepted. In my entire career (now retired) I never ran across a single agent that dressed like that. I know I never dressed like that.

It was always easy to pick out the new agents in the post-Hoover FBI: look for Khaki 5.11's, a polo shirt, and a silly photographer's vest or some such covering the sidearm.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

I am also retired. My LE career started during the Hoover years, and agents might just as well have been wearing uniforms. I don't recall seeing casual attire, not even a sport coat instead of a business suit, until the early 1980s or so. The fedoras were long gone before that.

I always liked the shoulder holster/Mardi Gras shirt/dead fish combo.

I later adopted the Aloha shirt over Homer Simpson tee look.

Suits were for court.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Lots of cops of all kinds used to wear those goofy vests with the many pockets. Like fanny packs, the vests screamed, "I'm carrying a pistol and not trying very hard to conceal it!"

This was a good post ,

I have some of those Hornady +p 135-grainers. I've yet to shoot any of them (and glad I didn't, considering the current situation), but assuming they are reliable, I feel they are a good choice for longer barreled pistols such as my Glock 17L with its six-inch barrel.

Since when did the FBI become the gold standard? They do a $%*& ton of testing which is great..........until it comes to the real world. I wish they would spend more time and $$ on training than testing. They have gone the long way around the block. From 9mm to 40/10mm to 45 and back to 9mm. I am sure I am missing 357 Sig in there somewhere.

Stop worrying about the jello shots and the fancy bullets in the fancy guns. Find a good gun with good bullets and train, train, train and then train some more. I don't think I have ever heard of a bad guy complaining what gun was used or what bullets were used.

Around ‘86-‘87 no one wore fedoras in my office. I preferred 2 button jackets on my suits. Did have white shirts since I worked on a white collar crime squad...

What does a comment about the attire of FBI agents have to do with this thread, which is about their 9mm Service and Reduced Lead Training ammo?

A "tongue-in-cheek" reference to the FBI history of strict regimentation in every detail, from agents' dress codes to haircuts to the finest details. The innuendo was intended to demonstrate the degree to which ammunition (or any other aspect of FBI service) was rigidly controlled, back in the day, and conformity was the ultimate commodity.

Those of us who lived through the old days understand the humor. Others seem to miss the subtlety (i.e.: wardrobe and accessories including firearms and ammunition, type, flavor of the month, etc).

Another old-fart attempt at humor, nothing more, nothing less.

Relax and consider the comment as it was meant and not as an opportunity for confrontation. It was easy to see there was no animosity intended.

It was unfortunate that it came at the same time two FBI agents were killed serving a warrant on a pedophile. And I don’t think anyone can infer intent from an internet post . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

It might have played better if it wasn’t posted and then appeared right by the thread about the two FBI agents who were murdered by a pedophile. Context is everything . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I think fedoras need to make a come back, myself. I've got some nice ones.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

It is a nice change of pace from the eternal caliber war threads.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

I was never not relaxed, nor was my question confrontational. It was simply a question. Don't read too much into it. Please.

I think that back when the FBI dressed in business suits it was looked on as being very professional. Meanwhile casual attire has been the order of the day for many years. This is just my take on this and I am not knocking anyone. Least of all current or former members of any Law enforcement agency.........

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Well, this finally answers a question that I've been asking for years but have been unsuccessful in finding an answer to until now... "Precisely what 9mm load effectively yields similar performance to .40 S&W and .45 ACP in FBI Ballistics Gel Tests?"

I knew that it couldn't be a Standard Pressure 115gr load, and strongly suspected that it was either a 147gr +P or even a 124gr +P+ load, but it's a Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +P, which makes sense considering that previously they had been messing with 135gr .40 S&W loads.

I wonder how many folks who repeat the FBI's statements regarding the all-but-equal performance of 9mm Luger vs .40 S&W and .45 ACP are carrying Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +Ps or otherwise the closest alternative available to them?

I remember that they seemed to be making something of a comeback in the mid-late first decade of the new millennium, but then they were declared "hipster" and younger folks stopped wearing them.
Shame really, they're nice-looking hats. I own a few myself, but haven't worn one in ages. I keep thinking of wearing them, but they're all tucked away inside a closet covered in dust, and they don't really fit my everyday attire.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

The current FBI 40 load is the 180 gr Gold Dot and it was the Winchester 180 for a long time. The manufacturer often changed but it was 180 grain for the whole time.