Awhile back I remember seeing a thread here on this ammo, but cannot find it now. Seems like someone said that this was only issued to Air Force personnel, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, I was going through my pile of ammo and found this. Due to my old age, I cannot remember where or when I got it. It looks as if a special sticker was put on as an end label, maybe by the factory. Just thought I would share

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	+P+ Ammo A.jpg (103.9 KB, 545 views)
	+P+ Ammo B.jpg (156.4 KB, 455 views)
	+P+ Ammo C.jpg (30.5 KB, 436 views)
	+P+ Ammo D.jpg (100.8 KB, 413 views)
	+P+ Ammo E.jpg (134.4 KB, 372 views)

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John
SWCA #3401 SWHF #737

Looks like a standard law enforcement package to me. There has been a demand for improved "stopping power" for years and various hollow point designs as well as the development of +P and later +P+ loads were intended to address this. Manufacturers have had some reservations about selling some of these loadings to the general public (liability for possible gun damage is one reason I've heard) but were more than willing to supply them (under contract) to various LE agencies.

Over the years much of this ammo was sold off (especially revolver loads as auto pistols became the standard) and got out to the public. Also some retailers who dealt with LE sales occasionally sold off some to the general market as well. The "Law Enforcement Only" tag was often seen as a sign that the ammo was "better" than standard commercial loads to many people.

I am not aware of Air Force or other military usage of such loads though they may have been used by MP's or some Special Investigation units acting as law enforcement for military posts.

I’ve seen plenty of the Winchester 110 gr +P+ .38 Special (“Treasury”) loads but this type is a new one to me. Perhaps others have or used it in the past and can comment further.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

That's one I'd like to have and try.....
I was given a BUNCH of .38 +P+ by a retired ATF guy who was moving and divesting himself of stuff he felt he had no need for. It's all Winchester 110 gr JHP.
Having shot some of it, doesn't seem to be anything uber-special. Just a basic +P .38 with a little added noise.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

The 147gr bullet is the same bullet they use(d) in the 9mm load, albeit with less powder in the 9.

I don't think federal still makes a +P+.38 HS load in a 147gr weight but they do in the 9.

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aka "Mooncat"

The USAF issued out 130gr .38 Special -P- ammunition, not allowed to have any fun. ;-)

I bought a bunch of this stuff in 50 round boxes about ten years ago from CTD. Still have two or three boxes of it. It's not particularly hot that I can tell.

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Centennial Every Day

That was our fed issue duty ammo when we carried S&W 66 2 1/2”’s before the Glock 23 transition around 2000. I got about a case of it floating around somewhere. It would rock that 66 back in your hands pretty good if you didn’t have hold of it . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

That was the FBI issue .38 Special round for a long time. 147 grain bullet at about 950 fps, so it was fairly stout. I used to qualify with it in my Model 36.

When the Bu nixed all revolvers around 2000, I wound up with a few cases of it. The PFI at the time said shoot it or give to the local cops, just don’t sell it. I gave some away, but the sea-change to .40 caliber was already well under way. I bought a Marlin 1894 and used it on Montana gophers until it was all gone. It would definitely stop a charging gopher.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

38 Special +P+ went passe some time ago. For a while, in the 70's and 80's, it was a 38 Special round that could reliably expand. Better bullet designs of today make +P+ pointless.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

The story I heard on this 147gr Federal ammo was that it came out just over spec for +P. To get the performance required for the contract it was marked +P+ to indicate that it was over SAAMI for +P. AS stated earlier in the thread it was not considered overly hot. This is not the case with the "early" 110gr +P+ which was considered to be hard on guns. PGU-12/B was the Air Force round that was loaded to +P specs and can be identified by the bullet being deep seated and crimped over the ogive and a cannelure turned into the case at the base of the bullet.........

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

I just pulled some of that out the other day! It is not especially fast, but has been remarkably consistent in velocity - really minimal deviations. Neat round - not something I ever carry anymore (much better bullets out there now), but years ago I sure did.

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Now go make God proud...

Sometimes it pays to be an old fart. +P+ was the result of various groups who agitated that the use of .357 MAGNUM ammunition on criminals-excuse me, disadvantaged citizens engaged in income redistribution- was cruel and unusual punishment and other affronts to humanity and the constitution.

At the same time, the bullet designs of the time weren't entirely successful of reliable expansion at lower velocities. The general trend was to use pretty much the same bullet in standard pressure, +P and +P+ loadings.

What +P+ basically did was create .357 results in cases inoffensively head stamped as .38 Spl. The stuff was sold to government agencies that signed extensive hold harmless agreements which warned of excessive wear on firearms, possible firearm destruction and injuries and/or death to users in the case of said destruction.

There was some leakage to the NGO market, primarily of stuff that probably didn't meet all QC requirements-like velocity.

Interesting. I was moving some older ammo around the other day and saw I still had a box of the Winchester 147gr +P (not +P+). I vaguely remember picking up some boxes of it back when the former head instructor told me it had done well in some state ammo tests toward the end of the 90's (I think it was?). I never got around to carrying it, and just packed it away.

I also saw I still had 3/4's of a box of the original Federal Nyclad 158gr LSWCHP +P, too. I used to carry it in my 649 and 36 when I couldn't find the Winchester 158gr +P version.

I must've been a pack rat for ammo in my 30's.

I still have a box of original all-lead Hydra-Shok .45ACP, in the original ammo wallet packaging.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I used to have a bunch of the 110gr and 147gr +P+ ammo, probably still have a few boxes around here somewhere. It was good ammo, no problem killing bowling pins with it. The last time I shot any of it was when I got my 640ND. It has the “Tested for +P+” stamp, so I figured I should try it with +P+ ammo. Worked great.

At a recent gunshow I saw a few boxes of the 147gr +P+ for sale. A steal at $79.99 a box.

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Wheel guns are real guns.

Precisely the reason my agency issued .357 revolvers, first for me was a Colt Trooper MKIII, and very soon thereafter went to all M66's. BUT - duty ammo was (and this dates me) S&W-brand .38 Spl. 110 and later 125 gr JHP +P. Once S&W ammo went away, it was replaced by the same-spec Federal.

At the time there was much ado in the media about police use of "MAGNUMS" and the wisdom of using something on poor suspects that could take out an engine block at 7 blocks away.

We even had training staff that decided that if an officer lost his weapon in a struggle, it'd be better to get shot with this .38 round than a .357, body armor or not. (Using this line of reasoning, give me a .25 ACP every time)
Oh, and the 'female officer' consideration regarding qualifying was brought up.

Real reason came down to a term not known/used back then - 'P.C.'.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

LOL! I might be stealing... re-appropriating that description.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

I have two different boxes, one made by Winchester and one by Federal. One is 95 grains and the other is 110 grains and neither one has ever impressed me half as much as Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain LSWC-HP or Speer +P 135 Gr. GDHP. I guess for it's day back in the 1970's it was something that let Fed's use a 38 special load instead of the "dreaded" Magnum loads their M66 Revolvers were originally meant to carry. Apparently the Media was all up in arms about the Magnums.

In reality, more of a curio and collectible than useful as a really good SD round IMHO.

I still have 45 of 50 in a box of the Winchester. Tried it in a snub nose K frame and did not like it at all. Five and done. Might behave better in the long barrel N frame, maybe some day.

In general I have never been a fan of lightweight for the caliber bullets.

I have a couple boxes of that Federal +P+ Hydrashok ammo left that I horse traded for in the 90's. I used to carry it in a S&W model 60 in .357. It was very accurate in both that M60 and my 686. I have saved the last few boxes for nostalgia I guess.

Sounds like fake news to me.

Rather, +P and +P+ were attempts to improve the (perceived) lack of performance of the standard pressure 38 spl load, which was 158 grains at about 750 fps.

At the time .38 spl guns were widely used in police work, and by armed citizens, and these hotter loads were an attempt to more nearly approach .357 performance without the need for switching to a magnum revolver.

Same stuff...newer box I think. I got this stuff around early 2013..??? I remember after Sandy Hook I found myself with lots of primers, powders, and lead bullets but nothing much in the factory made defensive stuff. I asked a friend who is a reserve Sherriff to order me a few boxes of anything from his police supply. This is what I got.

Attached Images

20210210_111420.jpg (38.6 KB, 739 views)

..was wondering if anyone has run this 147 +P+ over a chronograph from 2" and 4" barrels to see what they are doing...

As I recall the 110 grain Treasury load was going in the 1200 fps range from a 4"...

Thanks...Bob

I've been saying this for years now, I'm not a fan of +P+ loads or any other such variations of loads which exist for the purpose of pushing the envelope of any given cartridge's capabilities past the threshold of their intended design specifications. If .38 isn't already powerful enough to suit your purpose, then it's best to simply move on to a more powerful cartridge like .357 Magnum rather than attempt to push .38 Special into .357 Magnum territory withl +P+ loads.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

And if recoil is an issue with the mag, go with some downloaded light recoil mag rounds to be in that 38 +P+ range.

That being said, I imagine the trigger for the .38 spcl +P+ for LE was because some bureaucrat wanted them to shoot .38 spcl for PR reasons and the +P+ was the attempt of the LEOs to get something more powerful and still meet those PR reasons. Basically, working with what they got.

Rosewood

Do mostly agree - except I do enjoy handloads for a c.1954 .38-44 that from my research, closely approximate the .38-44 'Hi-Speed' loads of the day.
Always a 158-160 gr. hardcast LSWC or LSWC-HP.
Every once in awhile, I'll use them in a newer M10, but they're a handful.
Other than the HD, they usually go into one of my .357's.
Surprisingly accurate.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

The Federal 110 +P+ 38F-TD load came out in 1980.
In a K frame it had 20,000 PSI and in a 2" fps was 1,000-1050
the 4" was stated to get 1150 fps.

Winchester came out earlier and had a Nickle case and was the ONLY 38 case that was marked with a +P+ on the case.
The others only had a +P stamped on thier case, as far as I know, with the 110 gr. Treasery loading.

I don't think that the duplication of hotter loads from a bygone era is quite the same as modernized +P+ loads which were invented for the purpose of turbocharging an existing cartridge beyond its design specifications, especially if all guns can handle said load without any risk involved.

I'm specifically opposed to the concept of overpressure loads which attempt to push a cartridge beyond its own limitations to the point that only a select few firearms can safely be loaded/fired with said loads.

In other words, I'm thinking of stuff like the .45 Long Colt loads which are only safe to shoot out of a Freedom Arms Revolver, Ruger Super Blackhawk/Redhawk, or otherwise a firearm chambered for .454 Casull or .460 S&W Magnum.

Basically, if it can't be fired safely from a typical example of practically any firearm designed for use with standard pressure smokeless powder loads of any given cartridge, then I would advise against it in favor of simply opting for a firearm which is chambered for a more powerful cartridge.

So yeah, as long as these High Speed loads you are referring to are historical loads which are perfectly safe to shoot from practically any .38 Special revolver, then whatever.

In general, my advice isn't intended for experienced handloaders, but for the average shooter who is shopping for defensive loads. Folks are free to load whatever they like, and provided that they're being safe/responsible about it, I have no issue with that whatsoever. I just don't want to see someone injured because they decided to load up an Airweight with +P+ loads thinking that .38 Special is inadequate for self-defense in standard pressure or SAAMI Spec +P loads.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Thing is, there really isn't a cartridge that fits that bill. I love the 45 colt. I also have the .454 and had a .460 at one point. They just have too much muzzle blast for my taste and are usually much heavier guns. Loading up a 45 colt in the 44 mag range is just the ticket in my opinion and you can get the same performance in the 45 colt with less pressure than the 44 mag.

I do however label my hot 45 colt loads very well with warnings of what you can shoot it in. I do wish the 45 colt had been loaded hotter to begin with, but alas, it was developed during black powder days, and you couldn't get those pressures without smokeless.

Rosewood

Good point.
My SOP for my few guns chambered in .45 Colt is simple.
If it has a JHP bullet, it's pretty daggone hot and loaded for deer hunting for use only in my Winchester Trapper carbine.

If it's any sort of cast bullet, it's at best fairly close to factory spec and for use in my S&W M25-5, the Uberti Schofield or the wife's Judge (hers, 'cuz she wanted one).
That's worked OK for me for many years.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

"I don't think that the duplication of hotter loads from a bygone era is quite the same as modernized +P+ loads which were invented for the purpose of turbocharging an existing cartridge beyond its design specifications, especially if all guns can handle said load without any risk involved.

I'm specifically opposed to the concept of overpressure loads which attempt to push a cartridge beyond its own limitations to the point that only a select few firearms can safely be loaded/fired with said loads."

I believe you missed the point of the original .38-44 loading...it did just that...turned a standard pressure .38 Special into a +P+ loading... And although originally intended for the S&W Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman Colt also said it was safe for all their larger frame revolvers...

And more recently the boutique ammo companies have loaded many of the classic rounds into a lot more than they ever have been and have deemed them safe in even J-frame revolvers.

Check out the velocities for the Buffalo Bore .38 Special and .44 Special...and check over on the BB website and the .38s are good to go in any modern .38 Special. The only warning for the .44 is no Charter Arms Bulldogs...


Just because the Big Three won't put out more effective ammo due to their attorneys doesn't mean it can't be safely done.... We don't have to live in the Black Powder Era anymore...

Bob

Federal used to quote a velocity of 950 fps from a 4” vented barrel.

I’ve read other chronograph reports of 900 fps from a 4” revolver.

That extra + on the box sure makes people nervous. I’ve seen advice to only shoot it out of an N frame!

Its just not that hot. Its a good solid load and will still kill people, but its barely a +P load.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

@Superman
I don't know what you're on about, but my post was directed at the OP, who was referring to .38 Special +P+, not .38-44. So whatever, handloaders can do whatever they want, I'm just throwing out my 2¢ regarding +P+ loads.
I haven't read every post in this thread, so I'm unaware of where the discussion has gone since it was posted, and just sort of jumped in headfirst regarding my stance on overpressure +P+ ammo.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

My brother and I both have a Judge. Rule is, you don't shoot anything out of it but standard pressure loads. Those cylinder walls are thin. He also has a Taurus 450 in 45 colt. Same rule for that gun. Now in my Vaqueros and Blackhawk all bets are off...

Erich chronoed the 147 a few years ago I believe he got about 950fps, maybe from a 4" Colt PP, but I could be wrong........

A Colt from yester year might give 50 to 70 more fps than others as they had tighter bores.

For a duffer with a .38 in the bedside table drawer, he might be better suited with a box of boutique ammo than with a High cap 9mm or a new .357 Magnum.

As always, JMHO-YMMV............

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

You shamed me into digging out some old logs until I actually found some data, amigo. I didn't find the 4" data, but I found this:

On 20 November 2005 it was 60°F at the Albuquerque City Range (5950'>sea level) when I shot the Federal .38 Special +P+ 147-gr Hydra-Shok load out of my 3" Model 65-5. My notes indicate the round did an average of 896 fps, with a spread of 25.4 fps and a completely respectable standard deviation of 8.67 fps.

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Now go make God proud...

Back in 9/01/2012 in my little M49 38 spl. snub nose with some Unique powder
I got a 110 gr, JHP Sierra bullet up to 996 fps.

With my 686 6", that same little bullet with a bunch of Unique powder in a 38 case
went out the end of the barrel to cross my chrony at 1305 fps.

I did not push the 125 gr JHP bullet but did get it in a 38 case to get up to a nice 1210 fps, with a 158 LswHp tripping along at 1124 fps with Blue Dot.

Erich, the reason I remembered that was I was thinking about buying a case of that ammo from maybe "Ammo To Go" and was very curious about it. I thought about it too long. It disappeared from the web site and I never saw it for sale again. I have learned to be a bit quicker on the trigger...........

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

When I saw the bullet with the pointy thing in the hollow point, I said to myself...self you had some bullets like that.

Was thinking I bought them way back when I bought my AMT 380 Back Up. Checked my 380 can and sure enough I still had them.

The price on the box makes me sad.

I still have 5 boxes of this with me which they're of no use to me anymore

That's why I keep a nickel Model 15 loaded with this stuff in my bedside drawer, along with a couple of speedloaders full. Mostly because I have decades of range shooting with K-frames with .38 Special loads. I'm sure I'm pushing 100,000 rounds at this point.

I'm no tactical shooter. Don't want to be. But if I need one I'm going with what I am intimately familiar with. Plus my wife may have to use it too. She has no experience with autos.

Short of a home invasion by multiple adversaries it'll do. If that happens I do have a shotgun handy.

Thank you...

...that said, if Federal says that what would be 950 fps from a 4" is +P+, they are on another planet... I'd take that Buffalo Bore ammo above in any .38 I'm staking my life on than the 147s...

Course these are the same people who have a 115 grain .38 Super +P with a listed velocity of 1130 fps...there are standard velocity 9mm going faster out of shorter barrels...

Bob

The old incentives for hotter and hotter loads in .38 special cases, mostly political and to some extent ballistic, no longer drive the train. Better performing bullets exist; we know a LOT more about aiming points/tactical anatomy, and it is possible to get far better training than was available in the 70s. Under most conditions, a good standard velocity SWC is a perfectly acceptable choice if one carries a .38.

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NHI, 10-8.