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  #151  
Old 03-02-2021, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ElectroMotive View Post
Self-outting poster. You are indeed.

Allow me to reply

He never said anything, ANYTHING, about "train with what you carry". He did say that a BB gun will help with trigger pull and sight alignment. He is correct. You are the one that took his point to absurdity by injecting the comment about him using a BB gun for self defense.

And I reply simply by using your own comments...

You are stuck in the past, and not reading enough. There are BB and airsoft guns that do use compressed air to simulate recoil. While they dont mimic the recoil of a particular firearm 100%, they do it enough. With regards to airsoft weapons and some BB guns, they actually do replicate the controls and the use of them. They do these things well enough that instructors all over the US, including in LEAs, use them for fam-fire and indoor training. They really arent that much different from .22LR conversions, but they are far less expensive to purchase and operate.

That said, the poster you tried to go after didnt mention shooting them to simulate a powder burning, centerfire pistol. He mentioned it as a means to improve sight alignment and trigger pull. While its true that they may not offer a similar trigger pull to firearm, any trigger manipulation is better than none.

Nobody is arguing that. You are merely trying to make an argument that isnt there, or padding your post to make to make it look like it was something of substance. Its not. You can stop now.
Sorry, but I decide when I stop - you don't get to silence people because they disagree. This board isn't part of the cancel culture.

Let me clarify since a lot of what I said apparently went over your head.

My question about the philosophy of "training with what you carry" is in regards to a topic with a long history on this forum. It wasn't a direct reference to anything the other poster said. It was a reference to a universally accepted principle of self defensive carry. Again, if you read what I said I specifically referred to it as a PRINCIPLE. If you don't know what that word means in this context, I suggest you look it up. Obviously it is a principle that you appear to be unfamiliar with.

The rhetorical question that followed my statement about "training with the gun you are going to use for self defense" is a reference to the fact that training with a BB gun only fits with that principle IF you plan to use a BB gun for self defense. Obviously no one does - that is what made the question rhetorical. It amazes me that something so simple has to be so exhaustively explained for you to "get" it, but there it is.

The whole theme of what I have been TRYING to get you to understand is that the 8 million new gun owners in this country need to put a significant number of rounds downrange in order to become proficient with their new gun. Especially since the vast majority of them bought their first gun SPECIFICALLY for self defense, because they are concerned about what has been going on across the country. NOT getting that practice means they aren't really prepared and maybe even unsafe. Practicing with a BB gun will improve some fundamentals of marksmanship, but it hardly prepares a person for self defense with a real gun. For that purpose THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR LIVE FIRE.

These statements are generally universally accepted by anyone who knows which end of the gun a bullet comes out of. Not sure why you have such an issue with what I have been trying to say.

The thing that started the whole discussion is my statement that with the current price of ammo, many new gun owners cannot afford the ammo for the amount of practice and training they need to become proficient. I believe the "scalpers" or "profiteers" or whatever you want to call them are largely responsible for that fact. If that hits too close to home for you, oh well...

BTW I know all about "realistic" airsofts. I have one with the recoiling action you talk about. I'm attaching a couple of photos of it below. It is a full-size replica of a Sig P226 that uses green gas. It weighs about 1/2 to 2/3 as much as the real thing, and the slide reciprocates "just like the real thing" - except that it is nothing like shooting the real thing. The slide is the part that makes it so much lighter than a real gun - it has to be lighter for the gas pressure to make it reciprocate. This one - even being full size - has less recoil than even a 22LR or 25ACP. Plus the trigger has WAY less resistance than a real DA trigger.

So I'm sorry, but I am not convinced that practicing with one of these is sufficient preparation for self defense. Is the trigger and sight alignment practice better than no practice at all? Sure. Is it "realistic" practice/preparation - not even close.
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  #152  
Old 03-02-2021, 07:13 PM
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One concern I have with all these late arrival new shooters is that unless they have just recently turned legal age, they have been sitting back in relative happy ignorance of the world around them.

So what happens if a real SHTF scenario arrives, which is the only reason many are now thinking about getting a firearm?

I would really hate it to end up being shot with my own ammo.
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  #153  
Old 03-02-2021, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AManWearingAHat View Post
Glad you're managing to find some ammo. I personally don't have the time or the patience to be camping out big box stores, so I've shelved almost everything but air guns. Lots of fishing this summer It's important to have other hobbies.
Lol hardly camping out. I can arrive approximately 9:05 and hit a couple stores and be done by 9:20
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  #154  
Old 03-02-2021, 07:36 PM
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Sure, you need to put rounds through your carry gun. Get to know your gun, make sure it’s reliable...of course.

Shooting rounds at paper is not going to prepare you for a real SD situation though. A majority of those are bad breath close and you won’t even be looking at sights.

You could have 1000 rounds through a gun, shooting at paper, it’s not going to help in a SD situation. The only thing that fixes that is real training and yes, they do that with BB guns.

Put in the time searching or pay high prices...that’s the ammo world right now. No one owes you anything. The entitlement in this thread is scary.
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  #155  
Old 03-02-2021, 07:51 PM
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Sure, you need to put rounds through your carry gun. Get to know your gun, make sure it’s reliable...of course.
Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Rob613 View Post
Shooting rounds at paper is not going to prepare you for a real SD situation though. A majority of those are bad breath close and you won’t even be looking at sights. You could have 1000 rounds through a gun, shooting at paper, it’s not going to help in a SD situation.
LOL, 1000 rounds will help a lot more than zero - or 10, or even 50. It will prepare you a hell of a lot more than putting the same holes in paper with a BB gun

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The only thing that fixes that is real training and yes, they do that with BB guns.
SOME places do SOME of their training that way. There may even be some that do all their training that way. The local training facility I most frequent teaches a lot of their defensive shooting classes with live fire.

Here's a link to their classes.
Center Target Sports - Education

If I'm choosing SD training, guess which one I'm gonna choose - BB gun or live fire?
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  #156  
Old 03-02-2021, 08:27 PM
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The best way to deal with scalpers is to not deal with them at all.

If nobody bought anything from scalpers on principle, regardless of the perceived necessity, then they would be unsuccessful and thus would be extremely scarce because their financial investment would go completely to waste. They'd be sitting on piles of ammo that they blew all of their money on, eventually forced to sell it off at a loss.

I can honestly say that I haven't purchased a single round from any scalpers, and I never will. I could honestly be completely without ammo and would sooner make due with melee weapons until I could buy ammo from a legitimate business charging the current market price than give one of those low-life crooks any money. It'll hurt them far worse than it will hurt me because I'm not the greedy fool who blew all his money on ammo hoping to turn a profit.
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  #157  
Old 03-02-2021, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tops View Post
Are those the only pistols they have? If so, Why?
Yep. Not "gun people." Live paycheck to paycheck. Moving up from .380 to 9mm ain't happening, $$$$$ again. Saw LGS "counter guy" a couple hours ago, they have .380 ball for $60/ box 50. I'll pass the info tomorrow. I help out folks that are "enthusiastic." Those that "want a gun in the house just in case", but don't go beyond that mindset, move lower on the list. Joe
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  #158  
Old 03-02-2021, 08:58 PM
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If they're feeding their family off what they're making scalping ammo, they might be better served spending that time looking for a job. Of course most of those scalpers in my area don't work because they don't want to. Most have scammed their way into disability checks so they can hunt and fish full time.
Best answer in whole post. Your post should put this to bed.
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  #159  
Old 03-02-2021, 09:27 PM
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This thread is so entertaining. I love it.
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Old 03-02-2021, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Forte Smitten Wesson View Post
The best way to deal with scalpers is to not deal with them at all.

If nobody bought anything from scalpers on principle, regardless of the perceived necessity, then they would be unsuccessful and thus would be extremely scarce because their financial investment would go completely to waste. They'd be sitting on piles of ammo that they blew all of their money on, eventually forced to sell it off at a loss.

I can honestly say that I haven't purchased a single round from any scalpers, and I never will. I could honestly be completely without ammo and would sooner make due with melee weapons until I could buy ammo from a legitimate business charging the current market price than give one of those low-life crooks any money. It'll hurt them far worse than it will hurt me because I'm not the greedy fool who blew all his money on ammo hoping to turn a profit.
Do you really believe some guy that bought ammo at the local Wal-Mart or whatever is going to LOSE money. They will never lose money. Wal-Mart retail is cheaper than dealer wholesale.
You act like a ‘scalper’ has mortgaged their house to buy 3-4 boxes of ammo at Wal-Mart. Dude seriously if they can go make the rounds everyday they are financially secure I promise you let alone what they have been turning for a profit all along.
You are seriously full of yourself and have no clue what you are talking about.
The only one hurt is your ego.
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Old 03-03-2021, 03:20 AM
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That's exactly right. And they are accepting! What irks me is that I am a reloader and I cannot get components because all the people who, despite the lessons of the post-Sandy Hook ammo panic and other recent event, lacked the foresight to be prepared and they have depleted the market of everything ammo. Let me say it another way. The only reason people like us cannot get ammo and components...is because of the people who didn't prepare
Just human nature. It would be great if everyone did as they should. But they don't. And won't.
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  #162  
Old 03-03-2021, 10:04 AM
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Just human nature. It would be great if everyone did as they should. But they don't. And won't.
From what I’ve gathered this week, the Academy/WalMart scalpers are a coordinated group of retirees. Even if they score 2 boxes of 9mm/.380/.38spl/.45acp@$25 a box 50, They can flip it TODAY for $75 and pocket a Benjamin. Most see it as “social club.” I’m almost sympathetic; some retirees live on $1K-$1.5K/ no. With all the “bilious bloviating” about a $15hr minimum wage (about $2500/mo) why ain’t that the MINIMUM SS check? Joe
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Old 03-03-2021, 11:36 AM
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Why don't ya'll leave this post and go pull the handles on ya MEC's and Dillons if ya want ammo?
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  #164  
Old 03-03-2021, 11:37 AM
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That's exactly right. And they are accepting! What irks me is that I am a reloader and I cannot get components because all the people who, despite the lessons of the post-Sandy Hook ammo panic and other recent event, lacked the foresight to be prepared and they have depleted the market of everything ammo. Let me say it another way. The only reason people like us cannot get ammo and components...is because of the people who didn't prepare
So you are irked because other people that didn't learn from the past are making it more difficult or expensive for you, who apparently did learn from the past but chose to ignore it anyway, to buy your ammo and /or components because you did not prepare and that is their fault because they were smarter than you were.

My guess is that some of them are likewise irked that they cannot buy certain old used revolvers because there are people that feel they must own dozens or hundreds of them and make them unavailable or overpriced for them to purchase for their own use.
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Old 03-03-2021, 11:55 AM
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So you are irked because other people that didn't learn from the past are making it more difficult or expensive for you, who apparently did learn from the past but chose to ignore it anyway, to buy your ammo and /or components because you did not prepare and that is their fault because they were smarter than you were.

My guess is that some of them are likewise irked that they cannot buy certain old used revolvers because there are people that feel they must own dozens or hundreds of them and make them unavailable or overpriced for them to purchase for their own use.
The irony is palpable.
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Old 03-03-2021, 01:28 PM
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Went back to Wal-Mart this morning at 9:02 while most are calling on the phone from their couch bitching after dropping my son off at school and picked these boxes of 17HMR for $9 ea. No I don’t even own a 17HMR.
Once again go everyday and you will find something to shoot, trade, or sell.
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Old 03-03-2021, 01:52 PM
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Went back to Wal-Mart this morning at 9:02 while most are calling on the phone from their couch bitching after dropping my son off at school and picked these boxes of 17HMR for $9 ea. No I don’t even own a 17HMR.
Once again go everyday and you will find something to shoot, trade, or sell.
I'm stocking up on .455 Webley for the day I buy a Webley revolver, always a good idea to pre buy ammo when you find it at a good price....
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Old 03-03-2021, 02:43 PM
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I'm stocking up on .455 Webley for the day I buy a Webley revolver, always a good idea to pre buy ammo when you find it at a good price....
I like the way you think.
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Old 03-03-2021, 10:32 PM
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This thread is great! Would love some of the folks who bought Smith's and Colt's in the 60's and 70's, to PM me and sell them to me at their purchase price back then!! Hell, how about cabin owners and land owners too, farmers?? How bout sell me that land you paid $30 bucks an acre for?? Why not? It's the right thing to do. Or how about the bazillion people that inherited guns or land? Those evil *******s, selling for profit!! How dare they!!
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Old 03-03-2021, 10:38 PM
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This thread is great! Would love some of the folks who bought Smith's and Colt's in the 60's and 70's, to PM me and sell them to me at their purchase price back then!! Hell, how about cabin owners and land owners too, farmers?? How bout sell me that land you paid $30 bucks an acre for?? Why not? It's the right thing to do. Or how about the bazillion people that inherited guns or land? Those evil *******s, selling for profit!! How dare they!!
This place is loaded with hypocrites. They cry about a $100 box of ammo but when I look in the classified section they want $1400 for a gun they paid $200 for.
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Old 03-04-2021, 01:00 AM
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Read post #27
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Old 03-04-2021, 07:44 AM
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Read post #27
It’s the same thing. If you sleep good at night ripping someone off selling them a handgun 7x more than you paid for, only wiping it down a few times in 30 years you are worse than an ammo scalper because they are only selling at 2-3x what they paid for it.
As I said it’s not Capitalism if I don’t like what your doing around here. That seems to be the motto.
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Old 03-04-2021, 10:02 AM
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It’s the same thing. If you sleep good at night ripping someone off selling them a handgun 7x more than you paid for, only wiping it down a few times in 30 years you are worse than an ammo scalper because they are only selling at 2-3x what they paid for it.
As I said it’s not Capitalism if I don’t like what your doing around here. That seems to be the motto.
I’m beginning to think that after sleeping for 8 years somebody’s account got hijacked. Joe
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Old 03-04-2021, 10:38 AM
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This thread is great! Would love some of the folks who bought Smith's and Colt's in the 60's and 70's, to PM me and sell them to me at their purchase price back then!! Hell, how about cabin owners and land owners too, farmers?? How bout sell me that land you paid $30 bucks an acre for?? Why not? It's the right thing to do. Or how about the bazillion people that inherited guns or land? Those evil *******s, selling for profit!! How dare they!!
OK good...I call 2nds! Glad I got in this line...LOL
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Old 03-04-2021, 10:49 AM
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No ammo at Wal-Mart for me this morning but went across the street to Dunhams and picked these up at 9:05 this morning.
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Old 03-04-2021, 11:49 AM
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It’s the same thing. If you sleep good at night ripping someone off selling them a handgun 7x more than you paid for, only wiping it down a few times in 30 years you are worse than an ammo scalper because they are only selling at 2-3x what they paid for it.
As I said it’s not Capitalism if I don’t like what your doing around here. That seems to be the motto.
OK, so price adjustment for 30 years of inflation (guns), and for 30 years of inflation AND ongoing investment (homes) are the same thing as cleaning out the ammo shelves today (so others don't get any) so you can sell it to other gun owners tomorrow for a 400% profit are the exact same thing. Sure they are
There is a reason why PROFITEERING and GOUGING and SCALPING have been defined words in the English dictionary for decades if not centuries.
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Old 03-04-2021, 11:52 AM
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I’m beginning to think that after sleeping for 8 years somebody’s account got hijacked. Joe
I'm seeing a lot of posts from accounts like that here and on other gun forums, and SURPRISE they all seem to be folks defending scalping ammo.

Makes you wonder how many of them are just profiteers who really have little or no interest in guns - they just pop up on the boards whenever there is a shortage. The timing sure looks suspicious since the last shortage was right about 8 years ago.

They are in the same category as the folks at CTD in my book.
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:11 PM
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Back when basic ARs were going for $1200.00 & up, I bought a Mini-14 for $607.00 @ WalMart. Bought a bunch of Monarch steel-cased ammo for $4.99/box of 20 @ Academy. Collected magazines and goodies over time.

Now, I've promised it to my granddaughter when she gets out of the Marines this summer.

Gonna have to get the Mosin-Nagant M38 out, dust it off and open that can of 440 rounds of 7.62x54R.

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Old 03-04-2021, 12:29 PM
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Makes you wonder how many of them are just profiteers who really have little or no interest in guns - they just pop up on the boards whenever there is a shortage. The timing sure looks suspicious since the last shortage was right about 8 years ago.
Ammunition is a volatile commodity like anything else. The markets don't care. You think everyone who owns stock in Ford has an F150 in their driveway? When there is money to be made due to demand spikes, people will flock to it. It doesn't matter if it is ammunition or stock in a company. Some will make a lot of money and others will get burned when the price finds its new equilibrium. This has been going on forever. There has never been any "morality" in markets. It's just convenient to blame the other side as "profiteers" when you're on the losing end of a trade.
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Old 03-04-2021, 01:02 PM
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Willing Buyer and Willing Seller b viva La Free Market .

It's not just about " People like Us" . There are 5-7 million and growing new gunowners , who previously didn't own guns . Multiply by 100 rounds per gun b and that's a big chunk of the average annual production of centerfire ammunition . And brand new owners with any degree of Reason & Prudence will also seek sufficient additional ammo to gain sufficient familarization and handling to not be a danger to themselves , and have an inkling of being able to use for its intended ppurpose .

Additionally , there is proposed legislation Nationally , and recently passed and currently being debated z
State restrictions on the buying of ammo . Particularly in those jurisdictions , it is a factor for mental calculus about better to have additional Now , while you still Can even if higher prices , than later either not be able to , or face Draconian Restrictions .

There are two catagories of LGS now : Those who have ammo priced to reflect their wholesale cost and/ or current Replacement Cost , and those with empty shelves , who just shrug when asked about future availability .

And those of us with certain stashes ok f ammo on hand ? It's your Free Will decision to : Suspend disbelief , and use at pre p anic levels, trusting that supply and demand will stabilize within n 50% of historical point before you use up your stash on hand .

Or still shoot at rediced volumes, but with more dryfire and less live fire .
. Or essentially put shooting on indefinite hold , other than actual defensive , or actually at a critter you will eat , with bare minimum of sigthing in/ verification .

Which is the Wise approach ? I dunno , my Crystal Ball is in the shop .
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Old 03-04-2021, 01:58 PM
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Couple of guy's here got on the news about a year ago for buying up hand sanitizer,wipes and selling online for crazy amounts.Think they ended up saying they gave rest to charity.People weren't happy with them news people trying to talk to them didn't go good for them.Don't know if they broke any laws but nobody tried to hurt their feelings calling them capitalists or defended them calling them capitalist.Don't know whole story i was busy hunting toilet paper back then.
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Old 03-04-2021, 02:28 PM
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Ammunition is a volatile commodity like anything else. The markets don't care. You think everyone who owns stock in Ford has an F150 in their driveway? When there is money to be made due to demand spikes, people will flock to it. It doesn't matter if it is ammunition or stock in a company. Some will make a lot of money and others will get burned when the price finds its new equilibrium. This has been going on forever. There has never been any "morality" in markets. It's just convenient to blame the other side as "profiteers" when you're on the losing end of a trade.
I just LOL’d at the “You are here”.
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Old 03-04-2021, 02:49 PM
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OK, so price adjustment for 30 years of inflation (guns), and for 30 years of inflation AND ongoing investment (homes) are the same thing as cleaning out the ammo shelves today (so others don't get any) so you can sell it to other gun owners tomorrow for a 400% profit are the exact same thing. Sure they are
There is a reason why PROFITEERING and GOUGING and SCALPING have been defined words in the English dictionary for decades if not centuries.
Says you it’s different but its the same. Maybe the ammo scalper is smarter in the fact that he or she turns their profit quicker?
Once again no one is forcing anyone to buy anything. Marketing 101 what the market will bear.
I have never been that greedy for a 400% profit. I try to help others and keep it at a minuscule 50-75% margin unlike the 400-500% profiteers and gougers here selling handguns.
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Old 03-04-2021, 03:04 PM
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Took my wife and son to a hockey last sat. night. Its like for pre college or something, (i dont follow any sort of sports, so dont know the terminology) anyhow, got upstairs to our seats, and little man wanted a cheeseburger. I wanted a beer. His cheeseburger was $7 and half the size of a $1 one at mcdonalds. My 16 oz tap beer (bud light) was $10. Is that fair? 16 oz tap beer at my local bar is $3. Don't see government agencies trying to shut them down. Attendance was 2500, man did they sell alot of beer!! My choice to spend $17 on something i could have got elsewhere for $4. Damn beer and cheeseburger scalpers!! Ridiculous.
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Old 03-04-2021, 03:42 PM
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Took my wife and son to a hockey last sat. night. Its like for pre college or something, (i dont follow any sort of sports, so dont know the terminology) anyhow, got upstairs to our seats, and little man wanted a cheeseburger. I wanted a beer. His cheeseburger was $7 and half the size of a $1 one at mcdonalds. My 16 oz tap beer (bud light) was $10. Is that fair? 16 oz tap beer at my local bar is $3. Don't see government agencies trying to shut them down. Attendance was 2500, man did they sell alot of beer!! My choice to spend $17 on something i could have got elsewhere for $4. Damn beer and cheeseburger scalpers!! Ridiculous.
But, but, but thats ok because its not ammunition or MY hobby lol!
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Old 03-04-2021, 04:52 PM
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D'oh, my bad!! What was I thinking? Lol.
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Old 03-04-2021, 05:59 PM
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I'm seeing a lot of posts from accounts like that here and on other gun forums, and SURPRISE they all seem to be folks defending scalping ammo.

Makes you wonder how many of them are just profiteers who really have little or no interest in guns - they just pop up on the boards whenever there is a shortage. The timing sure looks suspicious since the last shortage was right about 8 years ago.

They are in the same category as the folks at CTD in my book.
Boo hoo. I’m sure those with differing opinions from you will lose sleep over your opinion.


Some people seriously don’t seem to understand how the internet works. LOL
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Old 03-04-2021, 06:35 PM
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I am not as much defending people buying low and selling high, which is what any of us would do whether guns, ammo, stocks, real estate, or what have you, as I am defending a free market system.

Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't, but that is the inherent risk and reward of a capitalistic system, or as close to it as the government allows us to have.

While I have seen some complaining about flippers and gougers, what alternatives are you recommending? Price controls? Regulated transactions? Government allocation based on need?

All of those have been tried in the past and have failed miserably, typically resulting in hyper inflation and even more severe shortages than we see in the current ammo market. How much do you think a round, much less a box, of ammo goes for in Venezuela if you can find the black market seller that has it?

I was at a local gun show last weekend and there was no apparent shortage of ammunition from .22LR to .50 BMG and everything in between. These were not stand in line for the truck sellers but larger vendors that I see at every gun show and their prices were in line with what many of those shelf clearers being ridiculed here charge.

So spare me your moral outrage because your chosen hobby now cost a few bucks more or those that finally pulled their heads out of... the sand are paying more for their procrastination.
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Old 03-04-2021, 06:52 PM
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I am not as much defending people buying low and selling high, which is what any of us would do whether guns, ammo, stocks, real estate, or what have you, as I am defending a free market system.

Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't, but that is the inherent risk and reward of a capitalistic system, or as close to it as the government allows us to have.

While I have seen some complaining about flippers and gougers, what alternatives are you recommending? Price controls? Regulated transactions? Government allocation based on need?

All of those have been tried in the past and have failed miserably, typically resulting in hyper inflation and even more severe shortages than we see in the current ammo market. How much do you think a round, much less a box, of ammo goes for in Venezuela if you can find the black market seller that has it?

I was at a local gun show last weekend and there was no apparent shortage of ammunition from .22LR to .50 BMG and everything in between. These were not stand in line for the truck sellers but larger vendors that I see at every gun show and their prices were in line with what many of those shelf clearers being ridiculed here charge.

So spare me your moral outrage because your chosen hobby now cost a few bucks more or those that finally pulled their heads out of... the sand are paying more for their procrastination.

Brilliantly stated. Thank You.

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Old 03-04-2021, 07:20 PM
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One of the reason I am one of those low post members is that in most other areas of this board I don't have a lot to add to the discussion that has not already been said or that I can share qualified knowledge let alone any degree of expertise.

I have 6 S&W handguns (2 64-3, 2 late 3rd gen 6906 and 2 late model BG .380 (2 is one and 1 is none) and 1 long gun (Sport II), none of which are particularly noteworthy and certainly not what anyone would consider collectible. While I like looking when people post pics, I don't feel I have to pad my post count by posting every time someone shares their most recent acquisition, comment that it was a good or bad deal, tell them how I did better or worse, advise them that they should or should not shoot a LNIB Model XX revolver, or feel qualified to provide technical advise on things I know little to nothing about.

My guns are tools acquired to perform functions or fill needs as I, and I alone see them. I am cheap so the idea of paying high 3 low 4 figure prices for 1, 3, 5, or 20 of this or that anything just to sit around or pull out to look at occasionally isn't my particular idea of financial security and whether it is or isn't for others, or their motivation is not for me to be concerned over. Mine go boom when I want and hit relatively close to where I want, so that is good enough for me.

So if someone, as one poster did, has a question about a 1980's era 64-3 DAO police turn in similar to mine, I may have something to say. If the discussion is relative merits, cost, finishes of a nickel, stainless, or blue .44 mag, no clue. M&P 1.0 vs 2.0? don't have one and likely never will.
Trigger pull on my BG? Little long and stiff, but I know it like a 2 stage trigger, where and when it will break and don't have to worry if I pass gas with my finger on the trigger that it will go off, but not a lot of posts about them in that section.

But I still have more than enough cheap ammo to keep them all running, don't have to buy more at current prices, and don't care that others chose or think differently.
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Old 03-04-2021, 07:46 PM
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No ammo at Wal-Mart for me this morning but went across the street to Dunhams and picked these up at 9:05 this morning.
Flint Dunhams this afternoon...
150gr / 170gr 30-06 Remington CoreLokt - $25.99 / 20 10-12 boxes on shelf
.300 Win Mag 8-10 boxes
.220 swift 6-10 boxes
.17 whatever .17 is maybe 20 boxes
12 gauge Pheasant (Rem) 15.99/25 30-40 boxes
12 gauge other (3 1/2, 3 turkey, some slugs) maybe 40 total
.300 Blackout a bunch
Some other miscellaneous stuff I don't shoot either.

Only priced the 30-06 because I shoot it, but not at that price when I have ~25 boxes at $0.40-$0.60 cpr after rebate and about 1K Lake City M2 Ball surplus and the 12 gauge since it used to be 8.99 and on sale for 6.99 almost every week.

No handgun ammo, some Pyrodex and 777 pellets.

Some handguns, a few rifles and a bunch of AR style scary black shotguns at normal (for them) prices.

I must not be much of a scalper or gouger since I walked on by and didn't even think about buying anything.
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Old 03-05-2021, 02:39 AM
ElectroMotive ElectroMotive is offline
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Sorry, but I decide when I stop - you don't get to silence people because they disagree. This board isn't part of the cancel culture.
Nobody is trying to silence you. The suggestion for you to stop was made because you are destroying any credibility you may have, or think you may have, on this board. Nobody said this board was cancel culture, though the staff here have removed posts condemning a previous poster's comments about online ammo sales.

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Let me clarify since a lot of what I said apparently went over your head.

My question about the philosophy of "training with what you carry" is in regards to a topic with a long history on this forum. It wasn't a direct reference to anything the other poster said. It was a reference to a universally accepted principle of self defensive carry. Again, if you read what I said I specifically referred to it as a PRINCIPLE. If you don't know what that word means in this context, I suggest you look it up. Obviously it is a principle that you appear to be unfamiliar with.
I am going to quote you verbatim

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How's that fit with the "train with what you carry" philosophy? Do you not believe in that principle, or are you going to carry a BB gun for self defense?
Obviously most normal people arent going to train with what they carry. Hell, federal LEAs arent practicing solely with JHPs anymore.

But direct to the point, the comment you responded to was strictly about "Practice is just trigger pull and sight alignment and a BB gun will do that just as good as a center fire gun and a lot cheaper."

While I do not agree with the poster that BB or airsoft guns are "just as good as a centerfire", I do believe they have merit.

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The rhetorical question that followed my statement about "training with the gun you are going to use for self defense" is a reference to the fact that training with a BB gun only fits with that principle IF you plan to use a BB gun for self defense. Obviously no one does - that is what made the question rhetorical. It amazes me that something so simple has to be so exhaustively explained for you to "get" it, but there it is.
You can continue on, blithering about about about how doing basic trigger manipulation, sight alignment , and even overall manipulation of a weapon can be done with a BB gun or airsoft. Using a BB gun or airsoft isnt exclusive to someone carrying said weapons for defensive purposes. To think otherwise is the spiel of someone so misinformed, uninformed, and deluded on the subject of training. It saddens me that this has to rehashed to an unhealthy level for you.

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The whole theme of what I have been TRYING to get you to understand is that the 8 million new gun owners in this country need to put a significant number of rounds downrange in order to become proficient with their new gun. Especially since the vast majority of them bought their first gun SPECIFICALLY for self defense, because they are concerned about what has been going on across the country. NOT getting that practice means they aren't really prepared and maybe even unsafe. Practicing with a BB gun will improve some fundamentals of marksmanship, but it hardly prepares a person for self defense with a real gun. For that purpose THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR LIVE FIRE.
Nobody is saying there is a SUBSTITUTE FOR LIVE FIRE. What we're saying is you can get certain things done with a BB or airsoft replica of the pistol you choose to carry. Good work can be done with these devices. Are they perfect? Nope. But nobody ever said they are or were. To quote a flash-in-the-pan Youtube personality, "...but it helps". Thats it. They help.

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These statements are generally universally accepted by anyone who knows which end of the gun a bullet comes out of. Not sure why you have such an issue with what I have been trying to say.
The only one lacking any comprehension on the subject is you. You are blithering on as if you're an expert on training and tactics, and as if you are somehow the moral beacon in the sea of ammunition inequity. You arent any of those, and I feel like that's been readily established here.

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The thing that started the whole discussion is my statement that with the current price of ammo, many new gun owners cannot afford the ammo for the amount of practice and training they need to become proficient. I believe the "scalpers" or "profiteers" or whatever you want to call them are largely responsible for that fact. If that hits too close to home for you, oh well...
Supply and demand. Low supply and high demand drive the prices, not scalpers or profiteers. There are far more facets to this issue than people who hit up the local big box store every morning for a few boxes of ammo to possibly flip. There is a pandemic that hampered supply chains (which still havent caught up). One of the major ammunition suppliers ceasing ops altogether for financial reasons, getting sold at auction, and only recently restarting ops under a new corporate entity. Then you can bring in the estimated 8M new shooters, and use the conservative 100/per new shooter, thats 80M rounds of ammo that went to new shooters. You, me, we are dealing with a literal perfect storm in this ammo crunch.

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BTW I know all about "realistic" airsofts. I have one with the recoiling action you talk about. I'm attaching a couple of photos of it below. It is a full-size replica of a Sig P226 that uses green gas. It weighs about 1/2 to 2/3 as much as the real thing, and the slide reciprocates "just like the real thing" - except that it is nothing like shooting the real thing. The slide is the part that makes it so much lighter than a real gun - it has to be lighter for the gas pressure to make it reciprocate. This one - even being full size - has less recoil than even a 22LR or 25ACP. Plus the trigger has WAY less resistance than a real DA trigger.

So I'm sorry, but I am not convinced that practicing with one of these is sufficient preparation for self defense. Is the trigger and sight alignment practice better than no practice at all? Sure. Is it "realistic" practice/preparation - not even close.
Again.... Nobody is saying it has to be on par with a centerfire counterpart. The issue is lack of ammo means no training of anykind, whereas a BB gun or airsoft provides some form of training. It doesnt matter how light the BB gun or airsoft gun is. It doesnt matter how light the recoil is. It doesnt even matter what the trigger is like. Doing SOMETHING is better than NOTHING. Sitting at home digging splinters out of your dumper while pining for ammunition isnt going to help you in a self defense situation.

Also, one last tidbit from instructor Claude Werner. On his page he frequently posts articles regarding self defense shootings. He finds that most involved in SD shootings have never attended a training course, much less fired their weapon 1,000 rounds. And yet these Joe/Jane Schmoe types still manage to come out on top more often than not. I am no way advocating that anyone not attend a course, or get quality trigger time and fam fire, they absolutely are a positive and help to further increase the odds in the good guy's favor.
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Old 03-05-2021, 07:22 PM
wetdog1911 wetdog1911 is offline
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The first time I witnessed price gouging was right after the Clinton ban in 1994.
The same thing happened during Y2K.
Then again in 2008 and 2012
They spiked again in 2016 because most people thought Hillary would win.
And now it is happening again.

So unless you are a teenager, how can you let yourself be caught with your pants down.
Forgetting that VERY old saw that "history repeats itself"?

The Clinton ban was enough for me, even though I was ready for that with a few pre-ban purchases.

The wild thing though, was right after Y2K, it seemed that ammo prices really cratered and I concentrated on case lots instead of any guns. Right after the AWB sunsetted in 2004, ammo prices rose in a hurry. Didn't matter though, by then, it was bought cheap and stacked deep. Still is.

A little imagination and foresight goes a long way to avoid panic buying.

It WILL happen again, so don't act surprised when it does, just Be Prepared.

Rob
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Old 03-06-2021, 12:03 PM
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On the lighter side...
(Yes, I shoot better than I photoshop)

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