38spl Ammo...Why So Much Junk?

[amd6547]

Seems like all the big manufacturers spend their production resources making 38spl ammo that is good for range only...I see tons of 158gn RNL, and 130gn FMJ. The FBI-type LSWCHP +P is hard to find, and overpriced when I do find it...
About the only reasonably priced SD ammo is the Winchester 125gn JHP +P as sold by Walmart.
While the new-tech JHP's at a dollar or more a round have their adherants, the FBI load is favored by many 38spl fans.
I can't believe one of the big manufacturers can't produce the FBI-type load for a more reasonable price.

[flop-shank]

This will likely stir some people up, but I'm going to say it anyway. Big ammo is a rip off. I carry handloads in several of my guns and eventually will faze out factory ammo altogether. I trust my ammo more than theirs and it's a lot less expensive. YMMV.

Obviously you've figured it out. A dollar a shot FBI load ammo is a world class price gouge. To top it off many of these makers will charge thirty + bucks for a box of twenty and not even have the courtesy to drop the bullet into a nickel plated case.

[Mod27]

Originally Posted by amd6547

Seems like all the big manufacturers spend their production resources making 38spl ammo that is good for range only...I see tons of 158gn RNL, and 130gn FMJ. The FBI-type LSWCHP +P is hard to find, and overpriced when I do find it...
About the only reasonably priced SD ammo is the Winchester 125gn JHP +P as sold by Walmart.
While the new-tech JHP's at a dollar or more a round have their adherants, the FBI load is favored by many 38spl fans.
I can't believe one of the big manufacturers can't produce the FBI-type load for a more reasonable price.

I just bought 250 rounds of Rem. GS 125 gr. 38+p and 120 rounds of Speer 135 gr. gold dot HP 38+p.

That any good for you? It's all pretty expensive nowadays. But what can you do if you don't reload?

[cp1969]

I haven't bought any factory centerfire ammo for so long I can't even remember the last time.

When you reload, you can make better ammo, FAR cheaper....it's not much of a decision to make.

[Mod27]

Originally Posted by flop-shank

This will likely stir some people up, but I'm going to say it anyway. Big ammo is a rip off. I carry handloads in several of my guns and eventually will faze out factory ammo altogether. I trust my ammo more than theirs and it's a lot less expensive. YMMV.

Obviously you've figured it out. A dollar a shot FBI load ammo is a world class price gouge. To top it off many of these makers will charge thirty + bucks for a box of twenty and not even have the courtesy to drop the bullet into a nickel plated case.

I agree with you that commercial ammo is a rip-off. But it's all relative to the cost of living today IMHO. What do you purchase today that you don't think you're being gouged on?

I know for me, there's not much. What's a new Chevy Suburban cost? About 55K with a few extras before T&L.

A six pack of micro-brew beer at Safeway,- 8 to 9 bucks. Etc, etc. I complain but, I hand over my money 'cause I refuse to buy cheap stuff, even though I feel like I'm being gouged.

Everything just continues to go up, up, up.

[amd6547]

I have reloaded for 44 mag, and am buying dies for 38/357.
But, my point is, who wants all that 38spl FMJ and round nose lead?
If I am put in charge of Winchester ammo production, my first move is to cut production of those two loads by half and replace it with the FBI load....Why bother making so much of the old RNL and FMJ load?
If a decent manufacturer were to produce the FBI load for $25 a box of 50, they would sell all they could make.
As far as magic bullets that sell for a dollar or more a shot and come in tiny 20rd boxes...they can keep them.

[Dragon88]

Originally Posted by amd6547

Why bother making so much of the old RNL and FMJ load?

Because people shoot far more practice ammunition each year than self defense ammunition. It's the same for all the calibers, I see 100 rounds of practice ammo on the shelf for every 10 rounds of SD ammo.

The FBI load is old and outdated. It's name might still mean something to some people, but the trend today is all about fast, light JHPs. The ammunition companies make what sells and they do a pretty good job of it. If you want some old load then handload it yourself.

[nicky4968]

My self-defense ammo is my practice ammo. 158 gr rnl over 4.3 grains of Unique. Don't mean to start a flame war here, but I wouldn't want to get in front of it. It works every time. I can hit things with it. While I would love to have a Colt in .38 super, or a Model 29, or a Rigby rifle in .375/575 Vatderjelvasdot, the Model 10 is what I've got.
You've got to dance with the gal you brung.

[amd6547]

The trend of the hype may be fast and light (and unreasonably expensive) JHP's, but I'll take a nice soft lead 158gn LSWCHP at 900-1000fps any day.

[bmcgilvray]

Originally Posted by Dragon88

The FBI load is old and outdated. It's name might still mean something to some people, but the trend today is all about fast, light JHPs. The ammunition companies make what sells and they do a pretty good job of it. If you want some old load then handload it yourself.

Nope. It isn't.

The +P 158 grain SWC is a viable and very effective alternative to the boutique "ammunition du jour" which is nothing more than faddish marketing. Self defense isn't about being trendy. At least it isn't in the minds of thoughtful handgunners. The ammunition companies may make what sells but they also do an excellent job of advertising, influencing the minds of their market. Just because it sells doesn't mean that it is necessarily best or that its buyers are all that knowledgeable.

Many years of field use of +P 158 grain .38 Special ammunition or its handloaded equivalent has convinced me that the "FBI load" is about as good as it gets in .38 Special guns of all barrel lengths. Lightweight bullets may be reserved for lesser cartridges like .380. At velocities attainable in 38 Special handguns, fast light JHPs are overrated.

[bsms]

I cheerfully use the FBI load for self defense. If sectional density is good for penetration in hunting game, it probably works on humans. The load has a history of working well, and humans haven't evolved a lot in the last 20 years. I suspect modern SD ammo works fine too, I just don't feel the need for it.

For practice, I buy the heavier bullets as cheap as I can find them in +P. I don't care what they are made of, just that they go roughly on the same path and produce roughly the same kick.

I'd like to reload someday, but haven't yet. For SD ammo, I won't ever reload. A box of 20 rounds should last me several years, and I'll only shoot it then because I don't want to keep it forever. That said, I shot some 15 year old 45 ammo recently and it all worked fine...

[amd6547]

"The ammo companies make what sells..." They also do a fine job of selling what they make. I wonder what the real cost of producing those dollar a round magic bullets is?
I would be happy with just two loads for all my 38spl needs, and a lot of my 357mag needs as well:
A reasonably priced 158gn LSWCHP +P and-
A hardcast 158gn LSWC loaded to the same velocity.
Those two would be all I need for my Model 15-3 and my Bodyguard snub.

[dkp9782]

Agreed, plus most fixed sight revolvers are STILL regulated for the 158 grain bullet...hmmmm. 37 years of law enforcement in big cities and small towns proved to me the effectiveness of the "old" FBI load. NEVER but NEVER use reloads as self-defense ammo. They will rip you apart in court if you have to use one.

[nicky4968]

I don't mean to hijack the thread. Nor do I wish to start a flame war. My alternative to carrying reloads would be to carry somebody's factory ammunition. That would be one box. It probably would only be a package of 20 rounds of somebody's highly touted SD ammunition.
It would be more likely, if called into court, I would be hauled over the coals for carrying ammunition, "designed for murder," of which I only ever purchased 20 rounds, as opposed to one of tens thousands of rounds of 158 gr rnl I have cast and shot.
Actually, after 31 years in court, I have never had the ammunition brought into question by a hyperventilating lawyer. The actual firearm, yes; the ammunition, no.

[Pisgah]

For those who feel all factory ammo is overpriced -- well, I would agree that some of it probably is. But before you make a blanket judgement, I would invite you to go out and get the licensing needed, buy the insurance, pay for the compnents, hire the help you'll need, book the advertising, arrange for the storage, transportation and distribution -- then show me how you can do it cheaper and still stay in business.

[Jellybean]

I don't think the cheap plinking ammo is all the companies are making, it's just what all the ammo hoarders are leaving behind. And when some magazine writer puts out an article saying that the cheap stuff is better than the expensive "designer" ammo, it won't be cheap anymore either.

[APS]

Check out the local gunshows if there are any close to you. I often find Speer 135gr +P Gold Dots there in the LE packaging for $25/50rnds. That usually beats the FBI load by about $10/50rnds.

[cp1969]

Originally Posted by nicky4968

Actually, after 31 years in court, I have never had the ammunition brought into question by a hyperventilating lawyer. The actual firearm, yes; the ammunition, no.

Exactly. If you're justified in shooting, it makes no difference what you use.

I see this "don't use reloads in SD guns" come up over and over, yet I never see anyone make the same warning about a gun that is "customized" for self defense.

On topic: The bullet itself is such a distant second place finisher to bullet placement that it's not even worth worrying about.

[desi2358]

One other thing to consider is that many buyers only buy the less expensive target type ammo. I sell a lot of ammo at gunshows and most of the people buying could not care less about whatever is hyped up as the "greatest defensive ammo on the market". They don't read the reviews, hang out on forums or worry much about what they loaded in the gun.
I sell 10 to 20 boxes of target type ammo for every box of defense type ammo. Many of those who do buy defense loads want the cheapest box they can find and they probably never shoot any of it. Very often when someone offers a gun for a trade they still have a full box of defense ammo with it.
Maybe if the defense ammo was as cheap as target ammo more people would buy it and actually shoot it but I don't think that's likely to happen.

[Black_Sheep]

It's unusual to find 158 LSWC in any of the local gunshops or retail outlets, that's why I "roll my own". Last time I calculated the cost it came out to about $6.50 per box (50) not including my single stage press and reloading dies...

[CALREB]

The big problem with finding any of that FBI type ammo is no major,and few minor agencies /military/ or anybody uses it, or much of it. They could sell some to the civilian market,and LE for back-up or off duty guns, but its all ammo for semi auto now,with a very small amount of revolver practice and service ammo used. Its like the other members said marketing whats in demand,most ammo companies are fat nowdays with military contracts and the ammo scare from the last couple years.The fact that people were paying about any price didnt help us either.Now most people wont spend 25-30 or more for any box of handgun ammo so they buy the cheapest stuff, so the ammo manufacturers make 20 different HP rounds and bonded not bonded etc. No one wants to hear about bullet placement.Heck I want to buy a cellphone that just makes and takes calls but that nearly impossible.Handloading is definitely cheaper and you can custom make for what you want so its a great idea if you have the capabilities and time. Here in CA who knows whats going to occur in the near future probably DNA test and $20.00 a round + 32 % state tax. I wish I was joking, Bob

[bmcgilvray]

"...I want to buy a cellphone that just makes and takes calls but that nearly impossible."

What a novel idea! A simple cell phone that doesn't complete nuclear fission while giving out the Billboard Top Ten tunes for the week.

Naah... it is probably beyond the capabilities of modern man to design something so simple and useful that doesn't do all our "thinking" for us.

[photoman]

Bullet technology has come a long way since the days of the old LHP+P. Marketing or not, the new bullets are performing much better. The Barnes X bullet is a perfect example. Expansion after barrier penetration is almost as good as expansion with no barrier penetration. That doesn't happen with the LHP.

The LHP+P load is a fine load and I wouldn't feel unarmed if I had to use it, but it's not accurate to say it's just as good as the new bonded or solid copper bullets.

Reloads for self defense? You're the one that will have to deal with the legal system. Use what you think will give you the best advantage in the court room.

[WR Moore]

Besides being one of the old, covered with cobwebs standards, the ol' 158 RNL is a load that gets sold on price point. Granted, a LSWC probably would be the same price, but there's tradition. Not to mention that ol' load has killed a slew of folks over the years.

[Splittinghairs]

They can produce for a better price! I reload the subject round at $10.50/50 MSRP, what do you think they can produce it for?

Quit buying it at the high cost and it will come down.

[captainjohnsofd]

Keep in mind the genuisses in Trenton have banned hollow/soft point ammo for civilian use since 1990. There is no other choice in NJ, including retired LEO's who carry. Criminals care not one whit about the ban. Guess what I am going to do when I retire next year.

[jmoln]

Is this what you are looking for? Available as factory new and as reloads from Georgia Arms. I practice and carry this in my 2.5" while the 135gr Speer goes in my J frame.

.38 Special 158gr Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point +P "NEW" 50pk
Your Price: $14.50

.38 Special 158gr Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point +P 50pk
Your Price: $11.50

.38 Special 158gr Lead Semi-Wadcutter "NEW" 50pk
Your Price: $14.50

.38 Special 158gr Lead Semi-Wadcutter 50pk
Your Price: $11.50

[BreakerDan]

I am tired of junk ammo in general.
I wish the big three would make not only
reasonable FBI 38s and JHP ammo,
but I would also like to see more of
the "premium" ball ammo like they used
to make. I prefer ball in my 1911 and
therefore really dont like to carry the
cheap junk ammo that is made right now.
Good ball would have a nickel case with
a crimp behind the bullet to prevent setback like
it used to have.

A good NICKEL cased 38 Special +P with a
158gr semi wad non HP would not be too much to
ask either. They are great field loads. I also still
buy a good bit of the old Remington Express
38 158gr LRN police load. Having used that
load hunting and trapping hogs (penetration),
it is not that bad for that purpose.
Seems like the nickel cases in general are becoming a thing
of the past.

[bmcgilvray]

"I also still
buy a good bit of the old Remington Express
38 158gr LRN police load. Having used that
load hunting and trapping hogs (penetration),
it is not that bad for that purpose."

I've wondered if the lead round nose 158 grain load was really as bad as some suggest.

I went through a phase for a couple of years of shooting 158 grain round nose bullets at a velocity of 860 fps. I had a cheap source for the bullets and used them extensively. In field use, all sorts of critters large and small fell to these bullets. Amazingly enough they went down for the count each and every time with good hits. Along about this same time (early 1980s) a very popular gun writer said in print that the load couldn't be depended on to stop a cottontail rabbit which "might run off and die." They must have had tougher cottontails in Wyoming where he lived than here in Texas. It was so much malarkey.

Of course I never had to employ the use of round nose lead to stop a human assailant so can't say for certain.

[tpd223]

Originally Posted by captainjohnsofd

Keep in mind the genuisses in Trenton have banned hollow/soft point ammo for civilian use since 1990. There is no other choice in NJ, including retired LEO's who carry. Criminals care not one whit about the ban. Guess what I am going to do when I retire next year.

I was traveling to NJ back in March, so I talked to the NJSP Firearms unit about the legalities since I knew as an out of state LEO I still had to abide by the ammo laws there.

Federal EFMJ, Cor Bon PowerBall, and Hornady Critical defense are all legal expanding rounds for use there, since they are not hollow points.

I felt well armed with a my Glock 19 (couldn't take my 17 since the mags are over 15 round capacity) loaded with 124gr +P EFMJ and my S&W 638 loaded with Buffalo Bore wadcutters.


Personally I wouldn't hunt with RNL or RNFMJ either, as I have seen solidly hit rabbits go quite a ways after being hit with these bullets in both .32 and .38 calibers. Wadcutters and SWCs flattened them with much more authority and no more loss of meat.

I know first hand of several officer involved shootings that went poorly due to the old RNL loadings not getting the job done on bad guys that were very well hit.

[bmcgilvray]

Texas has wimpy rabbits. They eat good though.

[amd6547]

JMOLN mentioned Georgia Arms...Are any of those loads available? Their home page states that 38spl is one of the rounds they are having a hard time getting components for.

[jmoln]

I just went to their website to pull that info. They are local to me so I just drive out to get what I need. They don't always have everything in stock every day due to their show schedule so I usually give them a call first. But if they are out for any length of time they will say so on the website.

[LuddhaBuddha]

I personally wouldn't want to use any kind of HP in a .38, I load a 158gr. hard cast LSWC over 6.2gr of AA #5 it's very accurate, controllable, and I feel that it will provide enough penetration to get the job done.

[cp1969]

Originally Posted by bmcgilvray

Along about this same time (early 1980s) a very popular gun writer said in print that the load couldn't be depended on to stop a cottontail rabbit which "might run off and die." They must have had tougher cottontails in Wyoming where he lived than here in Texas. It was so much malarkey.

I'm going to bet that was the same Bob Milek who, in one of his anti-cast bullet babblings, wrote that he once bounced six lead wadcutters off a bear's skull.

[bmcgilvray]

Originally Posted by cp1969

I'm going to bet that was the same Bob Milek who, in one of his anti-cast bullet babblings, wrote that he once bounced six lead wadcutters off a bear's skull.

You are perceptive and have good powers of recall.

[Krull]

I look at it this way:I'll use whatever I can find as long as it says "JHP" on the side,my 642 is currently loaded with some aluminum Blazer 125gr +P JHP and I feel fine about it,my 4506 has some 230gr Winchester white box "Self Defense" loads in JHP flavor.

All I know is a lot of these bargain JHP's are actually old tech stuff from the last twenty years,yes they are outdated but I suspect they can still kill you quite dead.

[Rob1109]

Originally Posted by bmcgilvray

Nope. It isn't.

The +P 158 grain SWC is a viable and very effective alternative to the boutique "ammunition du jour" which is nothing more than faddish marketing. Self defense isn't about being trendy. At least it isn't in the minds of thoughtful handgunners. The ammunition companies may make what sells but they also do an excellent job of advertising, influencing the minds of their market. Just because it sells doesn't mean that it is necessarily best or that its buyers are all that knowledgeable.

Many years of field use of +P 158 grain .38 Special ammunition or its handloaded equivalent has convinced me that the "FBI load" is about as good as it gets in .38 Special guns of all barrel lengths. Lightweight bullets may be reserved for lesser cartridges like .380. At velocities attainable in 38 Special handguns, fast light JHPs are overrated.

+1. The lightest I carry is Speer GD Short Barrel. But, mostly 158Gr SWCHP +P or Std. Bullets are like...well, you know, bigger IS better!

[336A]

Originally Posted by bmcgilvray

"I also still
buy a good bit of the old Remington Express
38 158gr LRN police load. Having used that
load hunting and trapping hogs (penetration),
it is not that bad for that purpose."

I've wondered if the lead round nose 158 grain load was really as bad as some suggest.

I went through a phase for a couple of years of shooting 158 grain round nose bullets at a velocity of 860 fps. I had a cheap source for the bullets and used them extensively. In field use, all sorts of critters large and small fell to these bullets. Amazingly enough they went down for the count each and every time with good hits. Along about this same time (early 1980s) a very popular gun writer said in print that the load couldn't be depended on to stop a cottontail rabbit which "might run off and die." They must have had tougher cottontails in Wyoming where he lived than here in Texas. It was so much malarkey.

Of course I never had to employ the use of round nose lead to stop a human assailant so can't say for certain.

bmcgilvray you definetly have my undivided attentetion at this point. Could you articulate for us on the terminal performance as well as details about shot placement, and range if the hogs were not trapped.

[bmcgilvray]

Hi 336A;

I haven't shot hogs with the 158 grain lead round nose load but only quoted another member's post. It apparently has been deleted because, in going back through the thread, I can't find the post from which I copied. There's no reason to think that a trapped hog, well hit at point blank range with an adequately penetrating 158 grain lead round nose .38 Special bullet, wouldn't expire immediately.

Now, hunting hogs with the .38 Special, or most any other handgun, is another matter. I hit a large one (field dressed 304 lbs.) hard through the heart/lung area at short yardage with a hot-loaded 150 grain bullet from a .30-06 once and he stayed on his feet for several minutes, first running 50 yards into a thicket, then another 100 yards or so into a creek. Whitetail deer, by comparison, have always collapsed for me when struck in such a manner by that .30-06 load at ranges less than 150 yards.

I have shot the usual run of Texas critters with the 158 grain round nose lead bullet in the .38 Special, up to and including largish feral dogs and they tended to understand that they'd been shot, they remained shot, they didn't continue on with much enthusiasm after being shot, and they gave up the ghost after being shot. After perhaps a couple of years of using 158 grain lead round nose bullets for my handloads I lost the inexpensive source so went back to lead SWCs. I didn't notice a marked difference in killing power between the two styles of bullets (there was a lot less difference than I would like to think there was) and a bunch of critters were hammered by the .38 Special during those years of tromping in the hinterlands. I still like the notion of the sharp-shouldered semi-wadcutter design best but the round nosed bullet does the business WITH GOOD HITS. No design really works well with bad hits.

I never had to stop drug-crazed criminals with either round nose or SWC bullets in the .38 Special and, with any luck, won't be called on to do so.

Conventional wisdom has condemned the 158 grain round nose lead bullet which may not be the "best in the west" but it also may have taken a lot of the blame over the years for a poor performance when poor shooting was the real culprit.

[cp1969]

Originally Posted by bmcgilvray

Conventional wisdom has condemned the 158 grain round nose lead bullet which may not be the "best in the west" but it also may have taken a lot of the blame over the years for a poor performance when poor shooting was the real culprit.

So very true. Bullet placement is many times more important than bullet shape or construction.

[tpd223]

I know of several cases where perfect placement with the 158gr and 200gr RNL rounds didn't do the job.

A former Chief here bounced two, I say again two, RNL bullets off of a bad guy's face without any effect.

They also tend to ricochet off of barriers, like windshields.

I wouldn't use RNL for anything but paper-punching, by choice that is.

[cp1969]

That must have been one hell of a hard face. I don't think even my mother-in-law's mug could repel a 158 gr. RN. The only one I can think of that might would be the latest Supreme Court nominee.

Also, FWIW, the 'face' is not "perfect placement."

[tpd223]

Originally Posted by cp1969

Also, FWIW, the 'face' is not "perfect placement."

It is when you are aiming for it.


It is common for the RNL bullets to glance off of skulls, I know of two suicide attempts that didn't work, even with a contact shot, due to RNL being launched from a snub.

[flop-shank]

Jim Cirillo wrote about two stakeout cops who grabbed an armed robber by the collar and emptied their snubs in his face at point blank range. None of the 158 gr. RNL made it into the guys cranial vault. As the perp awoke from being cold cocked by the bullets, he asked for a hanky. He blew his nose and a bloody bullet came out.

Some of you guys can act like every bullet/cartridge is equal, but street cops who see multiple shootings usually think otherwise. I'll listen to the Cirillos of the world when they say that 158 gr. RNL sucks.

As cartridges get harder hitting shots to the face and cranial vault ought to increase in effectiveness. There is going to be a world of difference between a 125 gr. .357 JHP and .38 RNL.

[tpd223]

That guy wasn't knocked out by the bullets, he fainted in surprise from running into the cops and then getting shot, apparently this wasn't part of his robbery plan.

Seriously. I personally talked to Jim about that shooting at a training class I attended that he was teaching.

... and that was 11, as in eleven, hits to the face on that bad guy, without effect (I don't count fainting as an effect).

[cp1969]

Originally Posted by tpd223

It is when you are aiming for it.

No, it is not. Aiming at someone's face, or toe for that matter, and hitting it, then blaming the bullet for not stopping the target is not "perfect placement." It isn't the bullet's fault if the shooter doesn't have a clue where to place it.

It is common for the RNL bullets to glance off of skulls, I know of two suicide attempts that didn't work, even with a contact shot, due to RNL being launched from a snub.

I swear, Bob Milek must have risen from the dead.

There have been SHOTGUN suicide attempts that have failed...care to blame that on the pellets?

[bmcgilvray]

"Glance" may be the key word here. What about the angle involved?

Never heard the story of the guy receiving 11 hits to the face with .38 Special round nose lead but fainting, at the very least, would be a plausible reaction to such trauma.

[tpd223]

Originally Posted by cp1969

No, it is not. Aiming at someone's face, or toe for that matter, and hitting it, then blaming the bullet for not stopping the target is not "perfect placement." It isn't the bullet's fault if the shooter doesn't have a clue where to place it.


I swear, Bob Milek must have risen from the dead.

There have been SHOTGUN suicide attempts that have failed...care to blame that on the pellets?

First, in a gunfight you might have to shoot at what you have available, in this case the bad guy was using a car for cover, so the face was the best "center of available mass" available. Shooting for this target and hitting it two out of three rounds during the course of an actual gunfight is pretty damn good shooting.

As to what you would think is "perfect" placement, I have no idea. I know from observation that shooting bad guys in the face is a pretty good spot to pick if you have to put someone down right now.

If you are talking upper chest type "center mass" shooting, well then I know of several cases where RNL and RNFMJ bullets have glanced off of sternums and ribs, thus not getting deep enough to do the job.



... and, I have seen suicide attempts where birdshot was used without success, rare but it happens. Birdshot is for birds, not defense against people, I won't comment on munitions choice when one is trying to kill themselves except to note that birdshot may be a poor choice, so yes, I would blame the pellets.


There are not many absolutes when it comes to wound ballistics, but there are definitely trends, and RNL bullets have enough of a well documented very poor track record in actual OISs that no one who examines these sorts of things can come to any other logical conclusion than RNL is a very poor choice for defensive ammunition.

[cp1969]

so yes, I would blame the pellets.

That doesn't surprise me.

Birdshot, at suicide ranges, is every bit as lethal as a slug. It doesn't know that it is only supposed to work on birds.