I shot 2 animals with the 45 ACP. A doe antelope was found with a rear foot shot off. I used Winchester 185 grain Silvertip hollow point ammo to hunt her down. I shot her 9 times to get the job done. The last shot was a mere feet away. A bullet to the neck and she lay down and died. There was virtually zero reaction to every shot. This was maybe a 100# animal. I recovered 6 of the bullets and all expanded well and were in the lung, neck area. Also shot a 28# javalina using hot loaded 200 grain Speer hollow point bullets. At 10 yards a single lung shot caused him to run into the brush, only to return and take a second hit down the throat. Off he ran into the brush and was found @ 50 yards away. And yet I still sleep with a 45 ACP in a holster that is screwed to my bed post, for 40 plus years.

RIP Chicago Police Officer Ella French who was killed last week. Shot one time with a .22LR from a Glock Model 44 illegally purchased in Indiana by a straw purchaser. Her partner, shot 3 times by the same .22 is in critical condition. He lost an eye and has a bullet in his brain. Take from this what you wish.

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SWCA 3255 SWHF 615

And I shot a dehydrated fawn (after Game & Fish approved it via radio) hung in an urban fence with my issue 5906 5 times using issue Hydr-Shok 147 JHP and she just kept kicking and bleating. I tired of torturing the poor animal and dispatched her with one 12 gauge round.

I'd easily killed a few injured sheep, cows, and deer at accident scenes with issue 357 magnum 125 grain JHP all with one shot each.

I shot 3 mule deer doe's with a 357 and 158 grain Remington hollow points. None died rapidly but all were lung shots. I did kill a large buck antelope using the same load and shot placement. He died after a 50 yard death run similar to a rifle shot antelope. In my youth when not much oxygen entered my brain, I did crawl into a bear den with a 357 and used it to dispatch a wounded black bear. Cant recall much about the reaction of the bear as it was DARK in there and when the muzzle of the gun touched bear fur I fired 5 rapid shot, leaving one to use on myself I guess.

From reading self defense articles and posts I understand two things.

1) A shooter can sometimes be shot through the heart and still remain standing and shooting for 10 seconds.

2) To be sure of downing a shooter you need to disrupt the central nervous system, i.e. brain or spinal cord.

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Buy American
Vote Responsibly

I was just about to buy a duty holster for my Beretta Jetfire but all these comments got me thinking…..

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Why is shot placement important for LE/MIL but not for civilian shooters? Do the human body's life support and control systems function differently when the person shooting them is wearing a uniform vs normal clothes?

Just because 9mm got better (they say it has), one should not assume that .45 (or .357, or .40) got worse.

Jim Cirillo , a famous member of the NYPD stakeout unit, was involved in
252 gunfights and personally put down 19 bad guys. He said he only saw
2 one-shot-stops, and he said both of those were shots to the brain. He
said even accurate heart shots were not instant stoppers.

Chicago police sergeant Bob Stasch, a veteran of 14 gunfights said he had
only experienced 1 one-shot-stop. In one incident his partner was attacked
by a perp with a butcher knife. They pumped six .45 Colt rounds into him,
but he didn't go down. Five more hits with a .38 sp. with lead hollow points.
He still didn't go down. Four more shots with .44 magnum Winchester silver tips.
The 4th shot finally put the perp down.

That's why I have slightly modified the Mozambique drill. Instead of 2
too the center of mass and one two the head, I practice 2 to the head
and the third to center of mass.

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In Omnia Paratus

What should be taken from this is that a hit to the CNS from the 22lr will always beat a miss from a 500 Mag. I think what this discussion is dancing around is comparing A to B under different circumstances when we should be talking about how they work under the same conditions. ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, the bigger the hole and the more energy that can be transferred to the target, the faster it will be incapacitated. A 22lr will never equal a 9mm which will never equal a 45 which will never equal a 12ga slug. And none of them will equal a hit to the CNS. The laws of physics are the only laws that can't be broken. At least in this universe.

I carry Glock 17 loaded with Speer G2 Gold Dots.

I feel as though I am well armed.

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

This could be settled once and for all. We now have hundreds of videos of police shootings. All that is missing from most of them is the caliber and the specific load used. If law enforcement wanted to do a real study, all they would have to do is gather that missing information and the autopsy reports and then watch what actually happened in the videos. Their findings would be a lot more credible than a 100 year plus old test on bulls, anecdotes and various unscientific formulas.

Civilian defensive shootings tend to be very short range, where 'shot placement' isn't an option. Center mass or hips are only choices.

LE/MIL, in the discharge of their duties, take longer shots. Longer shots enable aiming.

Civilians have no duty to apprehend. They generally shoot only as a last resort.

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I've still got it made.

My point exactly. Thanks.

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SWCA 3255 SWHF 615

Be careful with even these points. Brain shots are also dependent on hit location, penetration, and bullet direction. HCSO Deputy Ali Salinas was shot in the right forehead with a 9mm 115 grain Federal JHP and was knocked down, but survived a long wait to get medical help and is 95% today. Frontal lobe hits may not kill, nor even completely incapacitate.

And I apologize; there may be similar experiences out there with 40s, 45s, 357 SIGs, etc., but I'm truly not aware of any.

The medical community doesn't refer to the area of the skull above the eyebrows as the "cranial vault" without good reason. Not really a good target if you only have a handgun.

Google Marshall and Sanow

Think we'll see the plasma guns on the surplus market eventually?

I have absolutely no idea where you came up with this idea. Most shootings in general, LE or not, are close in. Being close doesn't mean you can't choose to put your shot in a good place, and indeed can make the shot easier.

If you've decided that being close to a target means you are unable to attempt effective hits in vital areas, you should probably spend a little more time at the range. Nobody is saying that taking a slightly imperfect shot at the center mass will do nothing, but it is absolutely not hard to teach yourself to focus on the a-zone. You're going to be aiming somewhere, why not try to make it somewhere that counts?

If you've decided that they don't matter and just dumping into the shape of your assailant is the best bet, I'd disagree but don't have much more beyond that.

When I was in middle school we had a guy a few years ahead who was involved in the early Iraq war. Dude took a 7.62x39 round through his helmet, through his brain, and out into the other side of the helmet (somehow got trapped in the kevlar between some layers on another side of the helmet). He described realizing something was wrong, raising his rifle to find the threat, then blacking out within around ten seconds. When I saw him after his return he was in remarkably good shape, definitely had some temper issues that weren't there before, but otherwise fine and functional. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't and there's not a good way to account for that.

its hard to imagine a .22lr can cause this much damage. But you bring up a good point that a CNS shot will put a bad guy down faster than a center of mass. But I think .45acp is only good if it can reach vital orgins. It's why I think .45acp using fmj is better

I am familiar with their work.

They had no access to videos back then and their methodology has been challenged by others in the field.

The videos we have now will remove the human error from anecdotal accounts, out of the equation.

Shooting from a close in retention position is also important. But it once again you have to become proficient and be able to do it as second nature.

It’s a different skill set but it’s acquired exactly the same way. start slow, over learning each element, and then - and only then- work on doing it fast.

——

I disagree with you on the three yards or less issue.

First, that’s still 9 feet, well out of arms reach but well within range of an assailant closing to engage you with a knife. With an assailant who might start at 30 ft, 9’ is a reasonable range where you will have the gun up into your line of sight. You don’t have much time to shoot and you absolutely need to shoot accurately and do it as the sight comes on target. The method I described above in my prior post will let you do that.

Your alternative is to shoot badly and *maybe* score a hit or two around the edges, leaving the assailant plenty of time to kill you before he dies.

Second, the Tueller drill established that the average officer could not draw and put a shot on target when an assailant charged the officer from less than 21 ft. That pretty well established a danger zone at over twice the 3 yards you mentioned.

The problem with the drill is that it assumes the officer or armed citizen is dumb enough to just stand there on the X waiting for the assailant to run him over.

If you also develop the ability to draw and shoot as noted in my prior post, it’s just an additional step to learn to do it while sidestepping 90 degrees away from the assailants line of attack. If he’s closing fast enough to stick a knife in you from 20 feet, he is also moving so fast that he can’t quickly change direction. When you side step a away from his line of advance you continue side stepping and continue adjusting that angle as the assailant works against his own inertia to spiral in toward you. You’ll find you have ample time to engage the assailant and if he is still moving he’ll be at almost a full stop before he reaches you.

You should be able to shoot him several times, and the majority of those shots will be from an extended arm position where you should have the front sight on target. If you’ve learned to shoot properly your grip will take care of sight alignment and your shot placement will consistently be center of mass.

The last couple shots, if he continues to close after being hit several times, will probably be done from a close in retention position. Those shots will not be nearly as accurate and if he has not stopped, they’re probably won’t stop him. You’ll be transitioning to open hand techniques to control or deflect what ever weapon he has for the hopefully few seconds of useful consciousness he has left.

The only time getting off the X won’t work is if you’ve let yourself become channelized in a narrow alley or hallway. That’s an SA failure.

——

The idea that all armed citizen shoots will be at three yards or less is statistically accurate but that’s also the range where the shooting starts, not where the assault is initiated. Concluding that shots fired at 3 yards don’t leave time to draw, extend the pistol and put the front sight on target is logical fallacy and if you are teaching that you are doing your students a grave disservice.

I'm aware of exactly one significant (>20, approaching 100 examples), credible data base of private citizen shootings. The average range is 5 yards, extremes are 2 yards and 27 yards. Initially, data was somewhat skewed by most examples being shop keepers, but the average was still 5 yards, but the minimum distance dropped from 3 yards. The figures there were substantiated by police investigations.

What's your source?

In regard to brain injury and incapacitation there is always the true story of Phineas Gage who was a "Tamper" back in the day when blasting was done with black powder. It was his responsibility to compress the powder in the hole using a 1 1/2 inch 6' iron rod to pound the powder down. A charge spontaneously exploded and drove the rod diagonally through his skull where it lodged. He survived and the rod was cut off leaving the imbedded section intact. He lived the rest of his life fully functional with only a minor personality change.
I'm a retired paramedic and my company had a transport contract with an institution that had a custodial adult brain injury unit. Some of their clients were profoundly impaired and some were ambulatory; all had sections of their brains that were non functional. Some certainly were still capable to be in a gun fight.
My point is simply that brain trauma is not necessarily incapacitating; one must transect the spinal column fairly high up to shut the bad guy down. The spinal column is a hard target to hit. If one is close enough to pick a target the area just above the rib cage and below the Adams apple is a viable aim point; there are major blood vessels there and the spine is close to the surface. Good luck to all of us if and when we are called upon to defend ourselves with a gun.

Self-Defense Ranges: What Is Truly "Practical"?

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I've still got it made.

I have had a carry permit for about fifty years now. In all those years I have had to draw my gun a few times to defend my self from being physically assaulted by someone much larger than my rather small stature. The distances were more like arms length than even a few feet. Thankfully I have never had to fire a shot. In my few experiences when someone is intent on doing you bodily harm they INSTANTLY change their mind when they see the muzzle of a gun pointed in their direction. They don’t wait to inquire as to the caliber of your gun.

Lunacy. Absolute lunacy.

I beg to disagree. I watch some of these shows on TV about SD instruction but not very often. I think that they have little relevance for the real world. If suddenly viciously attacked by someone with or without a deadly weapon you may be lucky to even get your gun in a position to fire at your assailant. Your first shot will be the one that you fire at any part of their body you can get in front of your muzzle. Foot, ankle,hand,belly, anything to draw blood and get them off of you. These practice drills shown by the “experts” on tv have more relevance to competition games than saving your life in the real world. What do you think you are going to aim at if you are rushed as you get out of or try to enter your vehicle in a parking lot at night?

after reading many of these replies I always knew pistol rounds of any caliber even with good shot placement may not drop the bad guy like lightning. However I read many accounts of Georgia Highway Patrol reporting the Sig .357 cartridge drops the bad guy like a lightning bolt.

But I think for up close and personal, a .22lr can do more devastation to the bad guy than any other caliber. Statistics also show the .22lr has a higher percentage one shot stop then the 9mm. . The 9mm may have more power but with a MP Compact 22 you can put several rounds into someone's brain at close range where the recoil from a 9mm may make it more diffifuclt if not impossible.

I am going to aim between the nipples and press the trigger until the bad person either stops being bad, or stops being a person.

Practice drawing from concealment isnt some mythical magical thing that only works in games.

Tell me something, when was the last time you practiced drawing a weapon from concealment on a timer? When was the last time you practiced drawing from concealment and engaging a target or multiple targets on a timer? When was the last time you practiced drawing from concealment , engaging a target or multiple targets, from an awkward position on a timer? I've done all of the above. It really i easy to get proficient at all of them. It just takes a modicum of dedication to the craft of carrying a firearm daily.

This is anecdotal, but:

I say: use very-high-velocity hollow points.

I was out shooting with a friend one day. We both had .22 rifles. My rifle was loaded with standard .22 solids. His rifle was loaded with very-high-velocity hollow points (e.g., Stingers).

I shot several doves with my gun. Not much happened.

Frank said, "here, use my gun next time." Okay.

I took Frank's gun and shot a dove sitting on a tree limb. The shot VAPORIZED the dove!! I mean, there was nothing left of him but feathers floating in the air!!! No body. Just feathers. He exploded. Literally.

It was a memorable moment.

Just sayin'. Just sayin'.


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So very Politically Incorrect

I have never practiced any of the above and never will. You’re doing exactly what I’m talking about when people watch these silly scenarios acted out by Jim and his pals on tv. They have NO relevance to the reality of a SD situation for an average Joe going about his normal routine. Multiple targets on a timer? Get real. Aim between the nipples? With what? Your full size .357 Sig auto pulled out of your retention holster under your photographer’s vest to chest level and thrust out at your multiple opponents lined up at 21ft. Wow. What I have practiced for over fifty years and will continue to do is carefully observe the people around me when I’m anywhere there are other people. Be very aware of your surroundings and learn to read body language. If you really feel threatened and can’t get out of the situation the place for your gun is in your hand. I’d like to see you make your practiced quick draw and aim for your two to CM and one for the head if someone gets close enough pin you against your vehicle with the door and sticks a cheap .25 auto to the back of your neck. LEO and civilian SD are two very different realities in the real world. I’ve been in a few situations where I really thought I was going to have to shoot someone after all these years but was very relieved when I was able to avoid doing so. SD for civilians is way more about thinking than stupid thousands of dry firings or shooting at steel targets.

Interesting

For a guaranteed stop I change my phaser setting from stun to kill. As a back up I have my lightsaber and the old Jedi/Sith mind trick to throw them off guard.

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KM
S&WCA 3110 S&WHF 625

Where can I get those? I have shot incoming kamikaze dove at about 15 yards with 12 gauge 8’s, and there was plenty left to wrap in bacon and soak in Italian dressing . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

To translate your wall of skreed:

"I can't be taught. I cannot learn further."

I had this whole response typed up, then I realized you're either trolling the board, or you're at bliss being willfully ignorant and obtuse. Quite frankly we are all dumber for having read your posts.

I get the feeling this discussion is never going to end until the world invents a type of weapon that will truly offer instant immobilization. The truth is that a handgun is a poor choice of weapon to defend yourself with; but its carriable and concealable and much better than nothing. Any handgun has obvious limitations and to survive an encounter depends on good shot placement and a fair amount of luck. If I new ahead of time I'd much rather depend on my 12 gauge with 00 and slugs, and indeed that is my choice for a home defense weapon. ( I'd much prefer a 1928-A1 Thompson but you can't always get what you want as the song goes)

You got to wait until they get out of their car...... !!

Just to add a bit of extra information, here's a link to a presentaion by Sgt Tim Gramins on a shooting he was involved in.


Short form: Violent Criminal Actor had a clean tox screen and despite a total of 16 wounds (including hits to both lungs, liver, right kidney, heart and 2 in the head) from 230 gr .45 Gold Dots, was still in the fight. Resistance ceased with 3rd head shot.

Do not read too much into one shooting.

20210818_085009.jpg

Caliber is dependent upon situation in my opinion. There's a big difference between combat and self defense. For SD I have a .40SW. I use standard fmj flat nose range ammo, either 165gr or 180gr. I don't practice any scenarios. I just practice shooting quickly and efficiently at 10'-30', occasionally I'll go farther. Outside of situational awareness shooting should become second nature. I didn't watch any videos either but one needs to take into consideration that in a life threatening situation the adrenaline rush is intense, there's no practicing or training for that. The biggest trick is to stay calm and collected and if you can't do that then caliber won't make a difference. How fast can you get your knife out? A guy I work with wants to get into shooting just for fun so he ask me what he should get. Never even heald a gun before. I told him get a .22 up to a 9mm. Most importantly is that it is first and foremost comfortable to hold from the start, if it's not comfortable it never will be. I think law enforcement should require so many hours of practice so the officers become more efficient and comfortable with there sidearm. Luck also plays a big part if one was ever to get into a gun fight. I remember asking an old timer years ago for advice if I was ever to get into a gun fight and his response "assuming you know how to shoot don't be the first one to run out of bullets", sound advice if ya ask me. Bottom line, carry whatever your comfortable with because you are responsible for your own life.

So this bad guy could have taken well over 20 nines and would still be in the fight. Good to know!

I remember many years ago at a meeting where two shooting incidents were presented. A small woman was shot with a .44 Magnum, and it didn't slow her down. A very muscular man who lifted weights was shot in the arm with a .22 LR. He instantly fell down and was flopping on the floor like a fish.


My opinion; develop marksmanship skills because your life depends on it. Don't worry so much about the caliber, but be sure to hit the right spot. Deer hunters don't shoot the deer in the butt and expect to kill it.

Are we done yet?

...when the fat lady sings.

One of the things that I stress to my students: nothing works on everybody. There were survivors at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If nuclear weapons don't kill everyone, do you honestly think that there is a handgun/calibre combination that works every single time?

Not yet. Just this last one.

I heard about this guy who got shot in the head 42 times with a 44 Magnum, then 62 times in the chest with a 45-70 guide gun, and finally one 22LR in the leg stopped him from charging.

It took 45 minutes to get him airlifted to the Hospital, and he lived.

WOW! You were actually able to become dumber

Remember, the VICTIM(S) are under the influence too - of fight or flight adrenaline.

FWIW, I routinely carry .380 in a belly gun. It's all about our personal threat assessments. Certainly not the most powerful or accurate weapon available but enough.