When and if that day ever happens............
I am guessing that it will be the straw that breaks the camels back.

I kow nothing !!

Despite anyone's feelings about steel cased (and Russian) ammo, there is no way that this embargo can be seen as something good, except by those who want to ban all guns.

My experience with Russian steel case ammo is limited to around 20 years ago when I bought a considerable quantity of 5.56 at a really great price, like less than a dime per round. It wasn't Wolf, etc. but it was very good quality stuff, and I fired some very tight groups with it, at least as good as any domestic ammo or even my reloads. It's long gone now.

Thanks.....

All this lament at the loss of putins commie ruski ammo. Now finish the job and close the US branch of the chinese government...walmart.

Just a couple of points here. I use the steel-cased Russian stuff in my two CZ 527 carbines and have had no issues with it as the 527 is designed around the use of ComBloc ammo.

Also, Wolf has plants in Ukraine, so they might get around this ban by shipping from there rather than from Russia.

I don't see any reason to panic. It's likey what the Biden administration wants us to do.

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Let's be careful out there

I have used some of the Russian steel case 9mm ammo with mixed results. It is pretty lightly loaded 115 gr FMJ. Their Silver Bear 94 gr .380 is better than the 9mm in my opinion. The best steel case ammo is the 7.62x39 stuff from China and Russia. Not surprising because of all of their experience in making it for themselves. I have Russian and Chinese SKSs and a Poly Tech AK. Accuracy and function is fine in these high quality rifles.

POF in Pakistan produces NATO spec ammo by the ton. I’d buy it. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

Does anyone really believe that the Russians are going to not sell us ammo? They will just ship it to Poland and put it in a different wooden box. The lesson is "buy American". If we did that to begin with instead of trying to save a few pennys, we wouldn't be depending on them now. Of course the panic has started because that is what we do.

When I see people say "buy American", I wonder if they consider this for other brands, too.

S&B= Czech Republic
PPU= Serbia
Fiocchi= Italy
PMC= South Korea
Magtech= Brazil
Aguila= Mexico
MEN= Germany
Geco= German or Swiss
Norma= German
RWS= Hungarian
IMI= Israel
Igman= Bosnia
Mesko= Poland
Armscor= Philipines

There are others, too. Belom is a subset of PPU.

I would only insist on "buying American", if the US made stuff was either A) the best, or B) the cheapest.
In my experience, most of the time it isn't either of those.

The only steel cased I regularly buy and shoot is the 7.62x39 stuff for one of my ARs.
I noticed my LGS had a couple of hundred new brass in that caliber the other day so I guess I'm gonna have to pick some up and find some dies and bullets...

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

I would argue that none of the manufacturers on that list are producing anything that is better than what comes out of Winchester, CCI or Remington. The best you might be able to say is that their product is just as good. Of course I know that there may be some very high level match ammo that comes out of foreign factories but that's not something that is going to make a difference to most of the people who read this forum. As far as price, I like to save money as much as anyone but I don't shoot to save money so I really don't mind paying a little extra knowing that it is creating work for Americans. All things being equal, I will pay more for something made in the USA. I really don't like the idea of supporting governments whose ideals may not align with mine and I certainly don't want to have to depend on their good intentions to supply me with things.

I don't shoot anything but "Merican" ammo in my Japanese, German, Swiss, Czechoslovakian, Turkish, etc. made American guns!

Seriously I hate to see the loss of ammo availability from any country. I want to keep the supply up and price down as much as possible.

Two things. Big one is the value of the dollar. Guys always bragging they paid $100 for something thirty years ago and sold it for $300. They didn’t gain they went in the hole. But the gun retains value that the dollar doesn’t. Number #2, don’t buy anything you can do with out from Communist countries. I guess it’s only fitting for Americans to shoot themselves in the foot with a cheap Commie bullet.

It makes me sick to see members backing an attack on the 2ND Amendment.
It makes me sick to see members backing any administration that is clearly punishing people that didn't vote for them.
Where is the ban on Russian Vodka, diamonds, furs, $1000 small can of Russian caviar and other products?
Where is the outrage about giving the go ahead for the Russian pipeline right after blocking the Alaskan pipeline?

I'll tell you my story about cheap steel case ammo.
I live in a free state and have taken young people out shooting for years.
We start with 22 bolt action and then move to Ruger 10/22's and after that they are able to shoot the SKS or if I feel they are ready they can shoot an AK47.
There are no misfires.. there are no TV'S taken out and shot at... and everything is cleaned up after we are done.

Absolutely! I can't understand how anyone can see the ban on Russian ammo as being anything other than a blatant assault on our Second Amendment. Forget how you feel about Russia as that is not remotely material to this discussion. Consider all the other stuff (mainly minerals) the US imports from Russia that we would have a very difficult time replacing if they were also stopped.

Russia is Russia and always will be. I just cannot understand the idea that Putin should run his country in a way that best serves the interests of the US. Is that how we do things? We put Russia’s interests before our own? Russia is never going to try to be a copy of the US. It is in the best interests of both countries that we have the best relationship that we can.

We're just going to have to disagree on this one, I'm afraid.

I would trust Wolf 9mm before I would trust Winchester White Box, and definitely before Remington UMC.
People tell me the Wolf is junk; the only "junk" I've ever come across has been from those two brands. Those are the only brands I've ever had squibs from.
Winchester is dealing with a recall right now.

If I can buy any FMJ at the same price, I am getting S&B or MEN. Fiocchi is next on my list. PPU is probably the next one, followed by PMC, before I get to something like American Eagle.

Blazer Brass is ok for guns you don't want to stress, since it's a soft load.

I'd like to try out the Polish Mesko, since I suspect it's as good a quality as the MEN or S&B.

For a caliber such as .32 ACP, I stick to Fiocchi, PPU or GECO, with Blazer next. I tried one box of WWB, and it was total junk in my opinion.

None of my preferences are based on patriotism or duty; it's based on several decades of shooting experience. I have found what my guns like.

Here's an interesting article from Pew Tactical that talks about the ban. It looks like there shouldn't be much of an interruption in the flow for at least two years, if at all. Apparently this was anticipated and most of the big manufacturers, the article mentions Barnaul, Red Army and Wolf, just renewed their import licenses which must be honored for two years. So it looks like this is just some hot air coming out of the White House. So hold off for now on getting a second mortgage to buy ammo for your stash.

U.S. State Dept. Bans Russian Ammo Imports - Pew Pew Tactical

I'm really not too upset about the US government taking a principled stand against Russian aggression and I don't doubt the oligarchs owning the ammo plants don't exactly have the interests of the USA at heart.
Is it inconvenient, sure it is. One silver lining is it might help out Remington, just freshly emerged from bankruptcy. Another is it might help incentivize US manufacturing of ammo in general. Even if the Remingtons and Winchesters in the country decide not to build out another line, you can be sure there will be mom and pop operations that will see a boost from this.

Well, the issue remains; whether the import ban starts tomorrow or 2 years from now, that is in place. If you look at the conditions to lift, there are 2 I doubt the Russians will do, ever. I don't think they make restitution to a guy they have in jail, and I don't think they allow international inspectors into sensitive areas.
On the other hand, it is an Executive Order, so I presume the next guy in office can simply cancel it. I dunno...

Here's objectively what I think the long term effects will be...

• Russian steel-cased 7.62.39 is the cheapest centerfire ammo around. Before the panic, it was the same price as range-load 9mm. Brass PPU or whatever else comes down the pipe, won't be... it will be about the same price as 30-30 etc. So the AK is getting pushed out of the "fun, shoot-a-bunch without worries" category. So are the 7.62x39 ARs.
• Russian steel-cased has set the basement price for common calibers, as long as I've been watching. Things like 9mm etc, "cheap" brass has had to stay within shouting distance; I and many others will pay SOME more, but not double. That basement is going away, today or in 2 years.
• Looks like the AK-74 and other 5.45 rifles are now relegated to the safe trophy category. Whatever benefits people saw in that caliber, it's about to become unobtanium.

I think the x54R guns will fare better. If it's a Mosin, then 'cheap' PPU isn't that expensive to prevent shooting an occasional box. You don't usually shoot 100 rds at a time from one of those.
If it's a PSL or similar, I'd have to think, by the very nature of the gun, you would want something higher in quality.

The ban on Chinese ammo has been in place since 1993. When the current import licenses expire we will have seen the last of the Russian ammo. Hopefully, 2 years is long enough for some companies to build some more factories to take up the slack. I would prefer to see more ammo produced here in the US but if it comes from Mexico, India or some other friendly country that would be good enough.

But for now the ammo shortage just got worse. This is going to cause even more panic buying and it will take longer for prices to come back down.

I always paid extra to get brass case ammo. But all the steel case imports still helped me by exerting a lot of price pressure on brass cased ammo. Even though I rarely shot it I am still sad to see it go.

I think we should write letters to the Russian Gov't asking that Hunter be appointed to the boards of the ammo companies.

Two years is forever in the geopolitical sphere. The only thing that is going to screw things up is if people come off the rails again and panic, buying every piece of ammo they see at any price. Russian ammo isn't going anywhere unless people start buying it like they are never going to make it again.

The bubble has already burst; steel x39 has jumped from 27 cents a rd, to over 50 cents already.
I was able to get in on some 308 at that price; relative to pre-panic prices that's not too awful bad. But now it's climbing up past 70 cents in a lot of places. I hit the 308 while the x39 guys were scrambling.

This will affect a lot of unexpected calibers, I suspect.
There is a HUGE x39 market, I suspect it's pretty close in size to the 223 market. And you can't swap barrels or uppers on an AK or SKS.
Now the question may become- will Winchester make a run of 300BO, or will they tool up in x39 to cater to this new crowd?

Good Lord People!!!!!

Russian ammo has NOT been banned. Applications for their commercial importation won't be approved for the next year, possibly longer. Nothing about this is remotely "banning" Any current import licenses will be honored as long as they are valid. They usually are good for 2 years. Anything in the pipeline, or anything covered by already issued licenses will still be perfectly legal to import, and will be allowed in.

Since there are numerous import licenses already, and they might start issuing them again in a year, there might not even be a noticeable difference in supply.

Am not really a fan of Rusian product, I wasn't aware of the ban !

This excerpt was in my email yesterday. What it tells me is when the US ammunition makers take up the slack from the Russian import ban, the availability of popular stuff will go down and prices will jump.

When folks say they are glad Russian ammunition is gone think of them when you shoot. The gun control ratchet clicked a few times tighter.

From Sam Gabbert, Owner of SG AMMO:

"There has been a lot of people asking me about the sanctions on Russian ammo imports put in place by the US state department this past week and what it means for the future of ammunition supplies. There will be more clarity in several weeks when we can see the publication of a Federal Register notice expected on September 7, 2021. The state department announcement can be seen at this page - Fact Sheet: United States Imposes Additional Costs on Russia for the Poisoning of Aleksey Navalny - United States Department of State

My Russian Ammo Sanction Opinion - First, I hope you don't 'shoot the messenger' and I'd like to pat everyone on the back and tell them things are going to be okay but that wouldn't be truthful. In my opinion the sanctions are a major game-changer in the ammunition supply chain that is already strained. For the time being and based on what we can see so far, we believe that this will be the effective end of Russian made ammo in the USA as it plays out over the next year or so as import permits expire or are filled to the quantity limits, and in doing so eliminate supply of a huge portion of the ammo in the US commercial market. From what I understand, the USA commercial market consumes around 800,000,000 rounds of ammunition from Russia every year, roughly 800 semi truck trailers worth in a mix of the most popular calibers. For the immediate short term we expect ammo to keep coming in from Russia but I expect the importers to raise prices substantially which is understandable to me given its the end of the lifespan for their business model. The calibers we believe will be most effected are soviet metric calibers like 7.62x39, 5.45x39, and 7.62x54R because there is almost zero available manufacturing capacity for these calibers outside of Russia and what little exists will not make a significant impact in filling the needs of the USA commercial market without Russian ammo absorbing the lion's share. In addition to these calibers, I estimate that the Russians supplied 30% to 40% of the 223 Rem / 5.56 and 9mm Luger consumed at the shooting ranges across this country, and large portions of the 45 auto, 9x18 Makarov, 30 carbine, 308 Winchester / 762x51, 380 Auto, 300 Blackout and 6.5 Grendel. I see this as a potentially devastating blow to the supply for of 223 Rem / 5.56 and 9mm Luger, where the reduction in supply from Russia will be difficult to make up in the short term for other manufacturers who have already been unable to keep up with demand this past year. Consumers who have used Russian ammo regularly will have to move on from Russian made ammo to those other products made elsewhere and in doing so absorb the supply and prolong recent shortages. Again this is my opinion, based on my knowledge of the industry after 20+ years experience, and how things play out over time could be different. For me, selling Russian made ammo is about 40% of my business, and while we plan to source as much supply as we can from other sources, we do expect this to have a major negative impact on supply for 7.62x39, 7.62x54R, 5.45x39, 9mm Makarov, 9mm Luger, 223 Rem / 5.56 NATO, as well as the other mentioned calibers."

If you listen you can hear the ratchet click.

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never get out of the boat

I'm not going to get into an argument with you, but did you read the wording of this?

While it does not implement an immediate ban, there will be no further permits issued for a minimum of 12 months, and they place 4 conditions on Russia before allowing a resumption.
Without plowing into the politics and getting this thread banned- something I want to avoid- 2 of those conditions are highly unlikely to occur.

Also without going into politics; although this is an EO and thus could probably be revoked by the next administration, "cooperating with Russia" seems to be taboo in our politics, and revoking such a restriction would likely be toxic, and thus unlikely to occur.

We understand there's a two year window in place (running from the date of the most recent permit), but some of these calibers are what you'd call "bulk usage". 7x62x39 in an AK, that's some something the average AK owner shoots a box of during hunting season... it's something people shoot hundreds of in a single session. Same applies to the cheaper steel 223, and certainly 5.45 will become an orphan caliber if access to further new ammo is denied.
It may not be your preferred manner of range use, but to act as though it's inconsequential- there are a LOT of folks who do this, it's legal, they like it, and it's in their rights to do it.

Now, something else is in this, which seems to be getting overlooked.
They refer to "firearms and ammunition", "manufactured and stored".
No new-manufactured firearms are allowed anyway, people ignore that.

But- "stored firearms"... THIS could be a serious blow to the Milsurp collecting. The Russians did not destroy opposing arms, they took them, ran them through a quick refurb (sometimes shoddy), dunked them in cosmoline, and stored them in large quantities in warehouses. Lots of WW2 German or other Axis weapons (such as the Star Model B's in 9mm), come from Russia.
Per this rule, that's about to shut, too.

I agree with your observations. Mr Gabbert also says wait and see. My worry is when the licenses expire then US production capability won't be up to it.
They haven't been to this point.

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never get out of the boat

Absolutely my concern, too.

I never bought steel 9mm for 14 cents, when I could get brass for 16-18 cents.
Steel 7.62x39 hovered around 19-20 cents a rd. If brass (new, boxer primed, not corrosive berdan surplus) were close, I'd probably have treated my SKS to that. I certainly would rather the brass in ARs.
Now, the C308 is a different beast, it runs smoother with steel. So it's both cheaper, and more reliable with that. I've made some effort to ensure I have plenty, will watch for more at the right price. I guess I'm really only competing with other C308, and PTR owners for that.

I don't foresee any domestic steel production; maybe we get some Ukrainian. Red Army Standard seems to have been Ukraine at times. But avoiding political details again, I don't know if Ukraine will be sending extra ammo away; odds are they will stockpile it.

My SKS carbine didn't mind the stuff, but the SKS's were MADE, I believe, for it Once, many years ago, I insulted my Browning Hi-power by trying a box of the Russian steel through it, just to see if it would work. I don't recall any issues except the cr*p was DIRTY. It was supposed to be non-corrosive, but I cleaned the pistol as though it wasn't.

If Russian ammo accounts for 30-40% of ammo bought then it seems to me non Russian manufactures can make a killing by stepping into the void. We always hear about them not wanting to invest in more production if the demand isn’t going to be permanent, but with this Russian issue seems like the demand isn’t going to go away.

There’s a major demand for the product. Time to ramp up production.

Someone is making a killing, but I don't think it's the Russian manufacturers.
I've bought some steel cased in the last year, because it was the only thing remotely affordable. Not all of it came in brand-new boxes.

Here's the baseline that I seem to remember, for such stuff before the panic:
9mm Luger, probably 14-15 cents/rd
7x62x39, about 20 cents/rd
223, maybe about the same, maybe around 23-25 cents a rd (I don't know as much on that)
9x18 Mak, 19-21 cents a rd
308, 35-40 cents a rd

Now, this stuff remained the bottom tier of the prices during the panic, and there was a bunch available (outside of Mak).
Last I remember before the announcement, it had come DOWN to
9mm, 30-35 cents a rd.
7.62x39, 27 cents a rd
223, 33 cents a rd.
308 was 50 cents a rd

And then go ahead and figure in brass, before and now:
9mm, 18 cts/40-45 cents
7.62x39... ? haven't seen or priced brass
223, was around 30 cents as a good price. Probably around 50 cents on average now.
308, wanna say bulk fmj was somewhere around 70 cents a rd. Over a dollar now.

In general, if the ammo will run, I will go with steel if I save around 15% or more.

The Russians are going to hoard the stuff for themselves anyway since they'll need it to deal with the new wave of terrorists that will simultaneously be attempting to attack them while attacking on American soil as well. Plus, Biden wants to ensure his buds in the Taliban don't have any market competition for all that Lake City and Redstone stuff they were just gifted.

I went to the LAX Ammo site today because they emailed me an ad.
Not one single round of 7.62 x 39 to be had. EVERY brand/type/bullet weight, regardless of brass or steel case was marked SOLD OUT.
I think things like this move against importing Russian ammo going are going to exceed all the previous actions that inadvertently promoted more gun and ammo sales. The law of unintended consequences at its finest.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

Guess those 500 rounds of Wolf 7.62x39 I bought on the cheap many years ago is about to become valuable.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Really, to me the biggest thing out this, is the incredibly poor timing. Just a total like of awareness.

First surge was fueled by the Covid outbreak, and then the riots and looting.
Things seemed to be easing back down, and then we suddenly get a new wave of Covid exploding in the country... that's what prompted me to make a recent purchase. And that purchase was due to the cheap Russian steel; THAT at least had creeped back down to the tolerable level as far as pricing. I would gladly have added some brass 223 instead, but the day I bought, it was $350 vs $550. And a few days later, it had dropped to $325. I almost cancelled and reordered, but decided to not mess with potential mayhem on the store's side of the deal.

It's almost like those lower prices are what prompted this decision....

Ah, all that being said; I have enough for various impending disasters. I wanted to get back to regular shooting for fun in earnest, but it looks like it's gonna be awhile before that returns.

Added- steel served it's purpose for me.
I didn't get into ARs until 2020, was able to get 1 case of IMI for not too crazy a price. But I wanted to have a little something tucked away, just in case prices don't come back down for a few years.

And I couldn't just get ONE AR; I have a college-aged son living with me, who eyeballed that gun. He's my shooting buddy, it's our quality time and a passion for him as much as it is for me. So I found another, so we'd both be able to have one.
And then as they say...

• "hey, I can put a pistol together for under XX amount. Maybe I should before they change the laws..."
• "hey, I can buy 7.62x39 for a lot cheaper, and Bear Creek has crazy prices on their uppers"
• "hey, I can just get a cheap lower and make that a dedicated rifle"

All of which, the prudent owner understands- you best have ammo for your guns.
And a case of steel now is worth 2 cases of brass sometime down the road...

In the absence of competition, as well as supply, from inexpensive Russian ammunition, going forward they will make a killing without stepping into the void, since they’ll be able to sell every round they can produce at inflated prices.

Oh it pains me sooo much to say this but during the last few years when supplies were good and prices were cheap some of us stocked up Brass cased, steel cased, all calibers, so much ammo so little space

Well, the worries about affecting current shortages are one thing. I'm also set for quite a long while.

But concerns about PERMANENTLY LOSING access to a particular category or caliber: inexpensive steel-cased 7.62x39, or really ANY 5.45, that's a different beast. For those, it's not "do you have a lot", it's "do you have a lifetime supply"?
Because that's what people are looking at.

I don't know if anyone domestic makes 5.45, and buying x39 for the cost of 30-30 isn't comforting.

PERMANENTLY LOSING? Not likely. Panic is irrational. One way or another steel cased ammo will continue to be available. Where there’s a market there’s going to be someone somewhere willing to meet that demand. As said above steel cased ammo is made in other places beside Russia. And of course nothing is permanent in our system of policy makers.

I think it was mentioned earlier, but a couple of weeks or so ago, I took delivery of a case of Tula 7.62 x39 for $350 plus tax.

Now, the same site does not have any steel-cased stuff at all and the brass-cased is more than double what I paid for the Tula

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Let's be careful out there

I *JUST* saw that last night on some website for 700, and Wolf 223 Steel was less at 685! I came across it by accident.

Where are all the guys who said everything was getting back to normal... Yeah, meet the new normal.

Just looking at the inflation numbers, if the stocks of ammo came back to pre pandemic levels, it would be a lot higher.

The "Good ole days" are gone, folks!

Don't forget the possible effect of the Russian embargo on primers. The lack of Russian ammo will put pressure on other sources to increase ammo production. I have understood that one of the principal reasons for the current squeeze on primers is that the domestic ammo manufacturers are using up most of their primer manufacturing capacity for in-house ammunitiion production. So when the Russian ammo supply goes away, it will probably increase domestic ammo production, and, at least in the short run, there may be little excess production capacity to make primers for reloaders.

Tariff and import bans are a crude, blunt instrument. The ammo ban is but a pin prick. Consider our enlightened State and Commerce Departments sanctioning and facilitating purchase of Russian RD-180 rocket engines since 1998. How many hundreds of million of $'s did this drain from the U.S. economy, let alone leave NASA and the Air Force without a U.S. made launch vehicle engine?? Not to worry. Pratt & Witney Rocketdyne owned 50% of the venture that made and sold the RD-180's to NASA and the Air Force. Follow the money. Doesn't the bureaucracy protect us from conflicts of interest and corruption like this? Sorry moderators. Too political. I respectfully retract. I'm glad the State Department caught the murdering Russians that tried to poison Novichok even if they did reveal source intelligence to do so.

Titanium. A very important material in aircraft manufacture.

And quite a few rare earths of high strategic importance. We get even more of those from China.

This frees up Russian ammo production so they can trade steel cased ammo to Afghanistan for lithium.

I’ve been calling BS almost since day one of this drought that ammo manufactures are ramping up production and running 24/7. Ammo is nowhere to be found near me, in anywhere near the abundance it was before they “ramped up production”. My local shop gets drips and drabs of shipment in. First time gun buyers aren’t the problem anymore. That wave has passed. There are no more lines outside Gunshops and gun inventory looks pretty stable, at least near me. First time buyers have bought their box or two of ammo and the guns and the ammo are sitting in drawers.

As for ammo makers choosing not to step into the void that will be left from the Russian ban, so they can keep their prices high and sell everything they can, I guess they can do that. I only hope gun owners remember that if this drought ever passes. What a scumbag move that would be from an industry that has been supported by the very customers they seek to screw over. I have probably 3500 rounds of centerfire ammo loaded and the ability to make maybe 5000 more. I’m bringing my shooting to almost a halt until things stabilize. I might have to make what I have last for many years.

They can put out all the videos they want on YouTube showing pallets of ammo getting ready to ship. Almost none of it is getting to NE PA. A friend of mine has a son in the police academy and they can’t even get enough ammo to train recruits. Qualifications have dropped to half the amount of rounds normally fired. Nobody is admitting that but it is definitely happening.

Good Lord. This is a S&W forum. SCANDIUM!!!!!!!