I was surfing through my ammo stash and came across a full green box of this 38 special ammo. This is a really heavy lead round for a 38 special. Box says "INDEX 5238". Any idea who and what Remington was looking to with this stuff?

No idea but I do remember it being available long ago. Im fairly sure it was made for the police assuming the heavier bullet would produce better stopping ability. I never load over a 180gr bullet for the 38/357.

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SWCA #3437

It used to be pretty popular. In the book "The Onion Field" about the kidnapping of two LAPD cops and the murder of one of them, the author (Joe Wambaugh) quotes an autopsy report that the officer (who was killed with his own gun) was shot with 200 grain .38 Special rounds.

They are sloooooooow - like 500 fps from a snubby. I carry them in my Detective Special sometimes. I like the option of being able to change my mind after shooting at someone and trotting after the bullet to knock it down before it gets there.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

From Major Julian Hatcher’s “Pistols and Revolvers and Their Use” (1927):
“The Western Cartridge Co. has recently placed on the market a .38 Special cartridge with a 200-grain soft-lead bullet, which is called the “Western Super-Police.” On account of the heavier bullet it has a lower velocity. Chronograph tests by the author gave 750 foot-seconds, and this corresponds to 215 foot-pounds of energy. It is interesting to note that in these tests the Super-Police cartridge gave less velocity in a 7 1/2 –inch barrel than it did in a 6-inch barrel, the reason no doubt being the increased friction of the very long bullet.”

I'm guessing that Remington felt like they needed a similar round to compete with the Winchester-Western product.

When I first entered law enforcement in the early '70s there were still one or two patrol officers carrying the 200 grain "Police" load. It would put a sizeable dent in a car fender or door. I remember one officer shooting a fleeing suspect with it. Bullet went through and through knocking the suspect down. By the time the officer caught up to him he was getting up and brushing himself off. The officer told him that he had been shot and to lie back down. Suspect did as he was told and then felt around and found the entry and exit wounds - no organs were hurt in this encounter. Most everybody was then going over to the Super-Vel loads, light, fast and loud.

I bought some 200gr cast bullet once for reloading. They weren't a lot of fun. The ones I had were more of a blunt-nosed than round nose. Had a test load or two tumble in one gun. Not really a good choice.

Both W-W and R-P made the 200 grain LRN load, in both .38 S&W and .38 Special calibers, as the "Super Police" load. Supposedly, the longer 200 grain bullet was not well stabilized, and tended to yaw inside its human target, causing more tissue damage. Also, the 200 grain .380 Mark I military revolver load was used by the British during the pre-WWII (and later) period for the same reason. At least that's the story. Of course, bullet technology has now advanced far beyond the 200 grain LRN.

"They are sloooooooow - like 500 fps from a snubby. I carry them in my Detective Special sometimes. I like the option of being able to change my mind after shooting at someone and trotting after the bullet to knock it down before it gets there. "

Now that's funny!

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

I might be wrong but I thought that 200 gr bullet was called.......

the flying ashtray ??

Thought to penetrate glass better than the 158 gr bullets but they did not pan out due to their low fps.

I've had many .38 Special bullet moulds over the years but never one for the Lyman version of the "Super Police" bullet. I've found bullets of around 180 grains are a bit too heavy if you have any interest in a decent velocity with the .38 Special cartridge. Something along the lines of the #358429 SWC at 165 - 170 grains is about the maximum practical bullet weight. The original bullet weight of 158 grains probably remains the best effective weight.

It seems that anything harder than the softest of berms and backstops might prove potentially hazardous for the shooter using very slow moving bullets that had poor penetrating capability.

During the 1970s all the shooting literature I read and shooters I knew called a specific 200 grain Speer JHP the flying ashtray because of its huge hollow point cavity. Speer manufactured bullets in Lewiston Idaho. One of the gun stores there bought Speer's seconds. The owner claimed most were just swept up off the floor but most of the ones I bought from him had a little lead on the outside of the jacket at the edge of their hollow point. I could not tell any difference in their accuracy. Along with other Speer seconds I bought flying ashtrays for 3 cents each.

To put that price in historical context, a new 5" Model 27-2 was in the store priced at $175.

BTW, 600 fps is more likely than 500 fps. It is difficult to give a bullet enough momentum to make it through the barrel and exit at only 500 fps.

I don't think Speer ever made a 200 grain .38 Special bullet, but they did make one for the .45 ACP. I didn't look this up, it's from memory so may not be a perfect recall.

As for velocity, about fifteen years ago, I chronographed some Remington .32 S&W ammo from the '30s or '40s. Muzzle velocity was in the 550 fps range. Bullets all made it out the barrel, but this is a ridiculously slow speed for a bullet to have any useful purpose.

Yes, while I also shot flying ashtrays in .45 Colt, they were primarily for .45 ACP.

That was a Speer .45 ACP load.

The 200 grain police load was predated by the British 38/200, the 38 S&W, with a 200 grain bullet.


38/200 MkI

After the First World War, there was a move away from the larger .455 calibre. The professional core of the pre-war British Army had been decimated and replaced by a larger and mostly conscripted force. It was recognized that the short training period available to the new recruits did not give them time to become proficient with the large-bore .455 revolvers, and that a smaller caliber would be easier for new recruits to develop competence with in pistol shooting.

British Army initial specifications submitted to ammunition manufacturers for the .38/200 military loading were as follows:

Cartridge: .38 S&W (.38-200)Muzzle velocity: 625 ft/s (191 m/s) (+ or – 25 ft/s (7.6 m/s)) from 4-inch (102 mm) barrel.

Webley demonstrated a lighter version of their Mk III revolver with modified .38 S&W ammunition, firing a heavy 200-grain (13 g) bullet, later known as the 380/200. It received favorable reports from the Army and the revolver was accepted in principle.

Hensley & Gibbs offered molds for even heavier .38 caliber bullets.

In his 1963 police handgun article, Cooper wrote about ammunition tests made by the El Cajon PD with the 230 gr. .38 to match the 230 gr. .45 ACP bullet weight.

H&G also made a 215 bullet mold labeled for Elden Carl that he used in the same experiments searching for a more effective .38. Of course, Elden famously carried a .44 Magnum.

Both were loaded to higher velocity than the factory Super Police. I don't have the spec on the 215, but the 230 was loaded to a claimed 700 fps in .38 and 1000 fps in .357.


From the H&G bullet mold list:

#127-.38 Special. 230 grains.

Heavy bullet. Bevel base, two square grease grooves, one crimp groove. Long parallel nose section to a slightly curved full-width meplat. April, 1948.


#257-.38 Special. 215 grains.

Heavyweight bullet. Tapering-smaller-diameter-toward-nose grease groove, no crimp groove. Long parallel nose to blunt rounded tip, for maximum weight to fit in .38 Special police revolvers. For Eldon Carl.

[Hat tip to researchers at the Elden Carl blog.]

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I like the 200 for bench rest target shooting.

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I don't know from experience, but I'd think that the super-heavy .38 bullets described might have a stability problem leading to larger groups. That wouldn't necessarily be a disadvantage for combat shooting at 5 yards.

It helps to have a 1 in 14 twist for a 200 grain 38.

500 fps out of a snubby?? Remember those old timey films of those traveling shows where the guy caught a bullet in his teeth? Maybe it was possible after all.

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Why duck?? It's a 9mm!

I've seen chronograph tests from years ago that listed velocities in the high 500 to 600fps from a 2 inch bbl.
As far as catching a bullet in your teeth, think about catching a broad head traveling at half the velocity of those 200 grainers, in your teeth. I don't think there would be any volunteers for that.

The low velocity concept interests me. All of those black powder revolvers from years ago seemed to be satisfactory back then. They could have lengthened the revolver cylinder to achieve higher velocities but did not do it. In fact, in the case of the .44 caliber revolvers, Colt shortened the Walker cylinder when they came out with the Dragoons and then shortened the cylinders some more for the 1860 Army; no one seemed to complain. Something similar was done to the .45 Long Colt cartridge. People seemed to be satisfied as long as there was adequate penetration.

I tried the Remington and Winchester 200gr loads in my M60, which shot a little low with 158 gr loads.They shot to point of aim with that gun; wish I had some more, I might carry them.

Two rounds of the Winchester version from a 2" barrel will stop an opossum at 10 feet. Or so a reliable source reports.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

That H&G #127 bullet looks like a great bowling pin match bullet. I'm sure you could get that 230gr bullet moving fast enough to knock the pin off the table.

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SWCA #3437

The Super Police was introduced over here more or less contemporaneous with the .38/ 200 over there . The velocities for Super Police in .38 Special and .38 S&W were more or less identical , within lot to lot variation .

The low velocities were a Feature , not a Flaw . The whole point was for the bullet to be just stabilized enough to fly through the air point forewards with acceptable accuracy , but imeadately tumble on impact . Higher velocities would stablize them Too much .

Contemporary reports from LE engagement in the 1930's generally had them having greater terminal effect than the standard 158 RN . But also frequent reports of them deflecting instead of penetrating car bodies , and front or rear windows in not striking at exactly 90 deg .

In the '30s and '40s they were used by a significant minority of PDs . And that in turn created a certain level of consumer demand from the shooting general public , sufficient for W-W and R-P to catalogue them for decades .

But as we all know , in the 1960's Lee Jaras made both 158 and 200 gr LRN instantly obsolete for both LE Duty and Self Defense .

For awhile after WWI, the .380 Mk I cartridge used a 200 grain lead bullet, and its ballistics were very similar to the US .38 S&W "Super Police" load. However, prior to WWII, someone finally figured out that the Mk I's lead bullet was prohibited for use in warfare within the requirements of the Hague Convention, as it was defined as being an expanding bullet. Therefore the British were required to replace it with a lighter (178 grain) FMJ bullet, and the cartridge was re-classified as the Mk II (or Mk 2), and was used during and after WWII in several British service revolvers. To the best of my knowledge, the British never called either military cartridge the .38/200, always the .380 Revolver Mk I (or Mk II).

I have a copy of this somewhere. Can’t put my hands on it right now. They tested some popular loads of the day on some junk cars.

There is a great photo of the side window of an old car that was shot dead-on with a 200 grain .38 Special load from a 2” gun. The glass was starred and pushed in but not penetrated. The bullet fell to the ground.

Shots to the doors resulted in dents and gouges.

One of the testers looked at the results and said: Halt! Or I’ll scratch your paint!

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__________________
“What you got, ain’t new.”

I remember that article. The 200 gr load was never intended to defeat cars. It is an antipersonnel round that is a good penetrator of tissue/bone. Most RNL loads, in standard service calibers, are handicapped penetrating auto sheet metal due to the deformation of soft lead bullets. That's why the metal capped, metal penetrating loads were developed. Trying to shoot most handgun rounds through cars, to reach an opponent, is an iffy proposition at best.

And Colt, S&W, and others made revolvers specifically made for the round. I have a Colt Official police made in 1941 that is marked specifically for that round. And ammunition is still available.

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We (NMSP) used to stop felony pursuits with gunfire when all other means had failed in the 80s/90s. Unless you get a car tire (semi truck tires deflate slowly with bullet holes) a radiator, or the driver suddenly decides things are getting too serious, shooting into cars simply is ineffective, at trucks even less effective. This is true with handguns, shotguns, or rifles.

I have this nice load in my small collection (bought in Germany). Made in 1975 )).

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The good old days! If you did that now, someone else would be living in your house.

I could be wrong, but I too thought the 200 grain 38 special liad was a police development for increased penetration. I think that sort of morphed into the . 38-44 and ultimately the. 357 Magnum. But like I said I might be mistaken on that.

Yup, that's just fact!

You are. The purported purpose of the "Super Police" load was for increased effectiveness on human bodies. It had no relation to the development of .38-44 or .357 Magnum cartridges. There are some factory letters in which it is stated thet the S&W Heavy Duty revolver was designed to fire the .38 Super Police load. That is a very obvious mistake.