Today I realized something of a strange phenomenon in the firearms community, everything in the .40 Caliber range being a love it or hate it affair.

I'm not just talking about approximate .40cal projectiles like .40 S&W or 10mm Auto either, but literally everything between .40 and .50cal.
.38-40, .40 S&W, 10mm Auto, .41 Magnum, .410 Bore, .44-40, .44 Special/Magnum, .444 Marlin .45 Colt, .45 ACP, .454 Casull, .45-70 Govt, .458 SOCOM, .460 S&W Magnum, etc, you name it.

People either love them or hate them all in equal portions in a way that seems out of proportion compared to other cartridges in the .20 Caliber or .30 Caliber range which seem to receive a lot more approval from folks in general.

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RIP .40 S&W (1990 - Present)

People tend to "demonize" that which is different from what they have chosen. If they choose a 9 or a .38, everything else "sucks". People want to feel that the things they have chosen are "the best".

Never had use for anything bigger than a "36" caliber (9mm-.357 Mag). They get done what I need done...for the price. But I don't "hate" everything else.

In fact, I once owned a .40 S&W. If ammo was as readily available as 9mm and as affordable, I would probably use that caliber. Of recent, I like the idea of the .41 Mag. Same there. If ammo was as available and affordable, I might pick up a double action .41 Mag.

Being of limited means and somewhat geographically isolated, I stick with what is affordable and available. It is for that reason that I drive a domestic automobile. Nearest repair shop for rice burners is 80 miles away.

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otis

.40 is "newer" (relatively speaking) and a "compromise" (also relatively speaking) - two things that people just love to hate!

As many times as I have heard ".40 is obsolete!!!" you would think all the ammo I have stashed would simply stop firing from sheer embarrassment.

I like ALL calibers, but prefer to shoot only a handful. To each their own.

I was of the mindset that 40 was an answer to a question no one asked.. I had 9/38 & 44/45 why have anything else.. but when they began dumping on the market I ended up with a modular Sig kit.. well.. I have ended up with a few more.. they are not evil... and besides, variety is the spice of life..

I think the thing that has upset the apple cart so much in regards to calibers is the advancements in bullet designs. For the average shooter and/or CCW person, smaller calibers are good enough because new bullet and powder developments have closed the gap in caliber effectiveness. The .380, once considered very marginal for self-defense has now sold like hot cakes and fills the role of primary defense weapon for many.

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otis

The .40 is supposed to be the in between that covers all the needs and solves all problems and makes the smaller and larger obsolete. But it just ain’t so. The .40 is the in between that offers no advantage over the smaller or larger and is the one destined to become obsolete.

The 40 S&W is a great round and will be for decades to come, it's just not the current flavor of the week. In fact, I see more 40 delivered to stores than 45 acp, with both selling just as fast. 40 and 45 are still significantly more expensive than 9mm.

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FBINA 213

I think someone should do their PhD thesis on why people hate the .40 S&W.

I've never heard anyone say "I HATE THE .38/40", though it is essentially the same cartridge - .40/180/950. In fact, old timers who would kneel at the feet of Elmer Keith say it is a "good mankiller" and "it shoots hard".

People love to say the "answer to a question nobody asked" line. That's not true. Someone asked - how can I get a bigger diameter bullet than a 9mm without going to a .45-sized gun? Someone answered - how about this one? And then the .40 was the standard LE pistol round for 20 years.

So then the .45 guys said - its the .40 Short and Weak!

And later the 9mm guys said - Owwwww! Its so SNAPPY!

But for 20 years cops put bad guys in the dirt with it. I worked a bunch of .40 shootings and I have no doubt it works really, really well.

Why the change?

I was there when the .40 was adopted by the FBI, and was one of the field firearms instructor called to the Mothership to shoot all of the wannabee FBI guns. I picked the HK USP Compact, but nobody listens to me and we wound up with the Glock 22/23.

Twenty years later I was ready to retire, and the announcement was made we were going back to the 9mm. Why oh why?

Because in 2001 19 scumbags with box cutters changed the world in general and the FBI in particular. Our number one priority became preventing another attack.

We spent a gazillion dollars on computers and nerds to squint at them. The ammo budget stayed the same. I mean literally the same dollar amount. Not adjusted for inflation.

We went from unlimited ammo for practice to here's a box to a guy handing out just enough ammo to qualify and shooting our carry ammo only once a year.

Somebody noticed 9mm was substantially cheaper than .40, particularly in practice ammo. 14,000 agents times 1,000 rounds a year for quals equal 14 million rounds a year. Every year. Guns are cheap compared to that.

Whenever you hear someone say "advances in bullet technology" just nod and replace that in your head with "9mm will work and its cheaper". I was there.

My buddy is an otherwise normal person who loves to shoot. He was looking for a truck gun and I found a .40 SV thing for $135 brand new and texted him to ask if he wanted me to pick it up for him. He texted back I HATE THE .40!!

I was in a gun shop years ago and a woman was shopping for a gift for her husband and the guy showed her a nice .40 cal. She said MY HUSBAND HATES .40s!!

I just don't get it. I think it threatens peoples manhood somehow.

I like it. It ain't going anywhere.

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I.M. Shirley Wright

No one mentioned the .400 Cor-Bon. Am I the only one who likes it?

I love my .40s I don't expect anything more from them than I do from any other cartridge. But I don't expect any less either, and don't get it. They function just fine for SD use, with plenty of close range power. Is 9mm better? Who cares, I have those too and have never found them to do anything better than the .40 does. I have 45acps too, and 45 Colts, and lots of .38, .357, on and on. My feeling has always been that if you don't like it for real reasons, don't buy it. If you don't like it because others tell you not to, then you are a fool and easily led by the nose.

I have 2, 40 cal. 686s, a 4" and a 6". I like them both! The 4" is my IDPA gun, and I shoot it quite a bit. They are great with the moon clips, essentially like a 3/4 size 625. A bit smaller, lighter, and still have good punch with 180 or 200 gr. bullets.

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Protocall Design

I don’t mind the .40. I carried one for most of my career. I also shoot them in USPA competition so I’ve shot upwards of 250,000 rounds over the last 26 years. I guess I just don’t find them interesting anymore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great question. .40 S&W dose seem to be particularly polarizing. I remember some controversy of 9mm vs .45 back in the day, but nothing like to .40 vs 9mm. Of course, I was born in 79 so I missed a lot of the 9mm vs .45 conflict. I've heard stories of Jack O'connor and another gun scribe going back and forth about light and fast vs slow and heavy hunting bullets, but it was before my time.

I think the fire got fanned by the large number of gun magazines available back in the late 90s and the advertising extoling the virtues of 10mm and .40 S&W. Naturally there was the usual backlash against something new. Plus several of the .40 fanboys I ran across had the .40 cal master race mentality. Then the internet started fanning the flames and we find ourselves here.

For many buyers I think it does come down to money. Many can not afford to own several different guns and when faced with a choice of the world standard 9mm and it’s relatively cheap ammo or the snappy controversial .40 with potentially more expensive ammo and shorter gun life with NO advantages over the 9 they’re going to go the practical route and try to get the best bang for the buck.

I think there’s a lot to this. Makes sense to me.

I am not among either the lovers or haters. I’m perfectly comfortable with the .40, depending on the gun. (Not so much in 1911s.) My theory is 15-16 .40SWs is obviously preferable to 17-18 9mms in the typical modern full-size duty pistol, but that seems to be the minority view.

I don't know, does this look polarizing to you?



There are plenty of nice PC guns in .40S&W that most people wouldn't mind owning. It was S&W's new round about the time the PC was started, so .40S&W got a lot of attention.

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My sgntr is mor thn 30 chrctrs

All depends on "where you're coming from."

The FBI did a pretty good job of defining a testing protocol for comparing ammo effectiveness, and to them the .40 S&W pretty much equaled the .45ACP. Only the forties were all big clunkers that wouldn't fit my hand anywhere near as well as a 1911, and my hand, while certainly not large, is a lot bigger than most women, whom it seems many law enforcement agencies are bound and determined to hire. Also, the .40 S&W is a HIGH PRESSURE cartridge, compared to the .45ACP.

So, it shouldn't be hard to see why some .45ACP fans don't like the .40 S&W pistols that were offered.

Now, some folks may have liked 9mm pistols, although from my point of view, probably only the Browning HP and a few single-stack pistols were worth considering. Of course, they used the Parabellum cartridge which the FBI had just decided was responsible for all of their screw-ups in the Miami debacle. The forty was supposed to cure all that. Of course, it was complete BS. Dishonest. Waste of taxpayer money. All proved to be true when the FBI changed back. Of course, they needed to cover that, so they made up a story about improved ammo effectiveness being the critical factor. Nope - they were wrong in the first place, on pistol size and on need for a new cartridge.

So. Unnecessarily high-pressure ammo. Bulky pistols (although they didn't need to be). Money wasted on a "solution" that didn't last. What's not to hate?

This is not a criticism of the .40 S&W cartridge itself. It certainly has as much legitimacy as the .45 GAP. But its history provides reason enough to be pissed off every time one hears the name. At least Glock paid for the .45 GAP; we're all paying for the .40 S&W.

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Formerly Model520Fan

To sum it up..........I don't give a rat's behind what ANYONE thinks about the calibers I shoot. Ain't worth arguing over So I ain't

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S&W Accumulator

Send me your address and I'll send you a block of cheese....

I don't hate them. I have three of them, including one of the H&K USP40C you mention. Lovely gun.

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Regards,

Tom

For 21 years I could carry anything I could qualify with so long as it was 9mm or larger in semi-auto and (briefly) 357 or larger in a revolver. When our agency changed to the 9mm, then again to the 45 after 9s failed miserably in our first 3 9mm shootings, I chose the 40 and spent my own money to do it. I still do when I think there might be trouble.

The NMSP recently changed back to the 9mm from the 357 Sig (since 1990 it's been 357 mag, then 9mm, then 45 ACP, then 357 Sig, now 9mm) for precisely the same reason the FBI did - it's easier to train on and uses much cheaper ammo. Magic bullets, indeed.

Don't hate 'em OR love 'em. I'm totally neutral on the 40 S&W.
I don't own any, and don't have any plans to. I don't see where they could do anything my 357s or 45s or 9s can do - and I don't need to add another caliber to the bench.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

I <3 that gun.

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GOA Florida State Director

I love .40 S&W, along with every other cartridge under the sun. Carried a .40 S&W for the majority of my LE career. It did me good then, and it'll do me good now.

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GOA Florida State Director

I can't think of two better answers. Yes, those FBI and police histories are interesting, fascinating even, but if you're stocked up on 9mm, .45 ACP, .357 Magnum, and .38 Special ammunition and handguns to handle those calibers you might be a little hard pressed to justify another caliber and additional handguns accordingly.

That's basically why I never bought a .40 S&W or a .41 Magnum - I like what I have, I have plenty of it, done and done.

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Come and take it!!

The more chamberings and guns, the better! Hell, I like .45 GAP and 9x18mm Makarov.

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GOA Florida State Director

I’m with you there.

Attached Images

7A604FFB-0ECF-44E3-A8F3-3D50FE231234.jpeg (57.8 KB, 24 views)

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I.M. Shirley Wright

I love all calibers equally.

Well, except that ONE caliber and I think you all know which one I mean.

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Just Say No - To Social Media

I've noticed the same thing ... in the late 1970's I picked up a S&W model 58 in 41 Magnum , I cast bullets and reload , it quickly became my favorite (it's my avatar) and noticed how people either thought the 41 was great or they bad mouthed it into the ground ... treating it like a red headed step child ! Put me in the Love It group .
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

There are a lot more 1911s in .45 than .40, and of course everyone knows the 1911 is the best auto pistol ever invented.

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Common sense isn't so common.

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GOA Florida State Director

.40 S&W will test a shooter’s basic shooting fundamentals. It's no wonder many men don’t like it.

As far as FBI. well, when you hear “bullet advancement” or “9mm is just as effective”. Think of it as “our qualification pass rate is higher with 9mm”. I write packages for a living and I know persuasive techniques.

Guess if we had today's "weenie people" back in WWII the 45acp would just be a foot note in history now.

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S&W Accumulator

Id heard back in the day, the 40 S&W was designed to replicate the reduced FBI 10 mm load, to be used in a 9mm sized platform.....

Interesting topic.
I'm also in the neutral zone for the .40.
In fact, you could say I carried one as a duty piece for ~10 years - except it wasn't a .40 - it was the S&W M1076 10mm always loaded with the '10 LITE' (180 gr JHP at 950 fps)
Ballistically, a twin to the later-developed .40.

In several OIS's, it did fine.
Our department left that platform due to the discontinuation of the M1076 as well as the high ammo cost (remember, it's always about the $$)
I was happy they replaced it with the M4566 and CS45, as I'd always been a .45 fan, often carrying some form of M1911 off-duty, against regs.

After I retired (2008), they went to the M&P .45 FS.

This year, replaced that with the Sig P320 9mm.
I'm sure they got a sweet deal from Sig and the 9mm is far less costly to train and qualify with. And for people that are not interested/involved shooters - the 9mm will always win out on cost vs. results.

Will probably never own a .40. Still have my M1076 and a Colt Delta Elite 10mm and a large supply of '10 LITE' ammo, as well as a lifetime supply of brass that I can load to 'real' 10mm performance levels.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

Why...?

Because haters just luv to HATE!

I also opine that developments in semi-automatic pistol bullets apply positively to all the "regular" calibers: perhaps some to a lesser degree than others, but positively never-the-less.

Cheers!

P.S. Unless you count conversion barrels I actually have more firearms chambered in 40 S&W than those in 9mm.

P.P.S. During the dem-panic 40 S&W seemed to always be both more available and LE$$ EXPEN$IVE than 9mm: at least around here on the Left Coast.

The OP didn't specify the .40 cal. He specified cartridges that start with a .4 diameter. I think the reason most hate the .4 calibers is They are recoil sensitive, or sissys. I also think the reason most like the .4 group is the recoil feels great, and powerful, or they are brain damaged like Me.

I forgot to add that not only do I like the 41 Magnum and my model 58 but I like all the 40 cal rounds . 38-40 was my first single action love , although it says 38-40 it uses a .401" bullet ... should be called 40-40 !
Like the 10mm Auto and even the 40 S&W .

1911's should be 45 acp ... JMB designed it that way ...
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

I can’t say that I hate the .40, it’s a useable ctg and gives people more choices. I just plain don’t want one

After the 9mm fiasco in Florida the 40 reined supreme for over 25 years. Then the the weenie people couldn't handle it so the 9mm rose to the top. As the LE's dumped it for wanting a 9mm the size of a bar of soap that holds 26 rds of ammo. Be a lemming. Follow the crowd. I don't.

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S&W Accumulator

My brother carried one as a deputy sheriff. Never heard him opine that it was anything but very effective. When he could get me cheap ammo, I had a Glock 22 that was the bomb for anything and everything. Now it's many years down the road. He is deceased. I am no longer a member of the gun of the month club. I'm down to just the basics. Have my .38/.357 revolvers ... a RIA .45 ACP and a Sig 226 9mm. If ammo were again available and affordable, I'd like a .40 S&W. Right now, just finding ammo for what I have is a problem. Will say, shot a whole lot of ammo using harrow blades for targets. Never saw a blade crack/break shooting it with common handgun calibers. Did put about 3K rounds of .40 S&W 180 gr. FMJ's into a nice harrow blade. That is the only one I ever saw just plain crack in half. Shooting distance varied from 7-10-15-25 yds. That G-22 gobbled up anything and everything I ever loaded into the magazine and all of the rounds regardless of manufacturer functioned perfectly with POA=POI. Sincerely. bruce.

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<><

Love all the calibers out there especially anything that starts with a 4. Here's a few in that arena. The first two are .40 S&W, the others speak for themselves. No hate or discontent here and I reload for all of them too.

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	40 Bliss.jpg (294.0 KB, 19 views)
	S&W 44 Special.jpg (66.3 KB, 20 views)
	S&W 41 Mag.jpg (70.2 KB, 20 views)
	S&W 45 acp.jpg (58.4 KB, 18 views)
	S&W 44 Mag.jpg (70.5 KB, 16 views)

We did have weenie people back then. We went from .45 Colt to .38 Colt if you recall

We then went to .45 ACP because of perceived issues with. 38 Colt and drugged up Moro Tribesmen.

From there, starting right after WWII, we looked at going to a 9mm. That's what birthed the Colt Commander and the S&W Model 39. The only reason why we didn't was money. We had tons of 1911s and .45 ACP sitting in inventory after WWII.

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GOA Florida State Director

JMB also designed thr 9.8mm Colt, a .40 Caliber Cartridge.

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GOA Florida State Director

Is it true that for Glocks, .40 S&W wears out the frame, credible armorer reports of blowing up, and bend the locking block pins prematurely?

As creditable as something you might read on a bathroom wall............

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S&W Accumulator

After reading this entire thread for the last few days, it seems to have shone this to be a false premise. {on this forum}

People here discuss this as if it is true, but then go on to say it doesn't apply to them. I draw the conclusion that the premise is false and that the 40 and above are not polarizing any different than those below 40. {I supose I should add YMMV}

My opinion for what it's worth ($.02 at best), is that a pistol is a pistol and they all require shot placement first if they are of a recognized duty level type power.

The only advantage 9mm really has is cheaper price for practice ammo.

I never had a .40 until about 2 months into this pandemic I noticed that there were boxes of .40 still on the shelves and not much else. I got a cheap Walther P99 and then a NOS 4013TSW so that I could use that ammo when it's available. Now I have more choices of handguns in different calibers so that I can take advantage of whatever might be on the shelves or online.

I think that most guys who say they dislike the .40 S&W couldn't come up with a logical reason why.

I was one of them for years, until I bought one!