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  #1  
Old 01-20-2022, 12:32 AM
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Default 38 Super better then 9 mm

I have a 1911 with barrels for both 9mm & 38 Super.
The Super I use Buffalo Bore 124 gr JHP.
Don't see anything in 9mm that can match it.
1350 FPS/ME 502 Ft Lbs
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Old 01-20-2022, 12:48 AM
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When i shot USPSA I loaded slightly hotter than that but was shooting them out of a custom race gun with a supported chamber. I’ve been out of USPSA for twenty years now but understand some of the competitors are loading 9mm up in that range. Eventually the hot loads I was running cracked my Caspian frame along the rail. I’m not sure I’d push 9mm anywhere close to that.

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Old 01-20-2022, 01:01 AM
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When you start pushing a 115 gr past 1350fps and 124 past 1250fps...
you will need a good or custom pistol to keep up with the pressures.

All that pressure pounding on metal parts is going to take it's toll somewhere.

The 38 super, is super...................... if you own one but for most of us,
we will have to settle for a the lowly 9mm for our shooting pleasures.
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Old 01-20-2022, 02:39 AM
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.38 Super at the speeds that Buffalo Bore or Underwood load it are actually within SAAMI (36,500) for that round. It's below where we USPSA guys like .38SuperMan and I used to drive ours to make Major. That was definitely beyond SAAMI, but worked fine with the fully supported barrels.

To get those kind of speeds out of a 9mm, you've got to push the pressures really high, well beyond SAAMI (35,000). I think it's crazy what they're doing now with 9mm Major. When I was shooting USPSA, it was not allowed to try to make Major with a 9mm because the pressures are dangerous. I don't know what's changed between then and now to make it ok. SAAMI for 9mm+P is 38,500, and most of the factory +P loadings come in at under 1200 fps except Cor Bon.

As to the Buffalo Bore round, I would like to see some ballistics gel testing of it before adopting it. My concern is that the bullet they use is the Sierra JHP. Based on testing I've seen on YouTube, that bullet doesn't expand much, at least in the Sierra loadings. There's one video testing Cor-Bon's 9mm supposedly loaded with the Sierra bullet where it does expand at 1200fps+, so the Buffalo Bore at 1350 is probably fine. I'll probably order some of the Cor Bon .38 Super 125gr JHP.

Last edited by Borderboss; 01-20-2022 at 02:47 AM.
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Old 01-20-2022, 05:10 AM
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Better than 9mm? For what, maximum energy or practicality? Before ammo prices went up how many 1,000 rd cases of .38 Super could you buy for $169?
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Old 01-20-2022, 05:27 AM
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38 Super is an excellent round and in comparing apples to apples 9mm vs 38 Super, the 38 Super would win.

That said, the guns that fire the 38 Super are larger, heavier, usually older in design and commercially manufactured 38 Super is limited and hard to find. The variation of the Super is also not even close to what is available in 9mm. I won't even discuss price! Last but not least you need to be practical and honest with yourself about a few things..... Are you willing to carry a larger and heavier gun? Are the current crop of excellent 9mm Factory rounds lacking?

So to sum my answer up, yes the 38 Super might beat out 9mm (apples to apples) but there are too many caveats that go along with that. At the end of the day, we live in an era where the 9mm has been developed into what some might consider a perfect handgun cartridge and 9mm ammo is the most common HG ammo in the world right now.
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Old 01-20-2022, 08:12 AM
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In terms of velocity, the 38 Super beats the 9x19 Parabellum. The 38 Super has a longer case, that means more room for powder, plain and simple. Where the 9x19 shines is in size. Due the 38 Super's longer case, it requires a magazine that is too long for a 9x19 size pistol, so the 38 Super goes into a 45 ACP size pistol and that might be bit too big for some hands.
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Old 01-20-2022, 08:56 AM
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I shot IPSC about 30 years ago before .38 Super was being used. I have a .38 ACP, a .38 Super and several 9 MM. See no real reason to super up either the .38 Super or the 9 MM to levels that they are. The .38 Super is nothing more that a hot .38 ACP. Shooting .38 Supers in the Colts manufactured for .38 ACP destroyed a lot of them. Surprising a Caspian frame cracked, very good frames, probably the best after market frame out there.
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Old 01-20-2022, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borderboss View Post
.38 Super at the speeds that Buffalo Bore or Underwood load it are actually within SAAMI (36,500) for that round. It's below where we USPSA guys like .38SuperMan and I used to drive ours to make Major. That was definitely beyond SAAMI, but worked fine with the fully supported barrels.
Have you ever seen an independent ammo review that measured pressure? I haven't. The equipment to measure pressure is too expensive for anyone except ammo manufacturers. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was too expensive for most of the boutique companies like Buffalo Bore.

After decades of seeing ammo makers greatly exaggerate their velocity claims until affordable chronographs made it hard to get away with I am not going to take their word for it when they claim they can get more velocity than everybody else without going over the SAAMI limits.

I once read an article about the Super Vel ammo from the 70s. This was ammo from the company that went bankrupt in the 70s, not the one making ammo recently under the same name. The author talked Black Hills into pressure testing it and it was about 10% over SAAMI limits. Ammo makers seem to have a "thou shall not speak ill of other ammo makers" rule when it comes to other companies that are still in business. I doubt they would agree to pressure test ammo from Buffalo Bore or Underwood.

I suspect a lot of the "full power" loads from small companies known for hot ammo are going over the SAAMI limits. Not by enough to blow a gun up but enough to cause malfunctions and accelerated wear in some guns. Basically +P loads for cartridges that do not have a +P spec. Nothing wrong with having ammo like that as a choice but it should be labeled as such. Which is kind of what Buffalo Bore does with their "Heavy" loads.

Last edited by Dave Lively; 01-20-2022 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 01-20-2022, 09:19 AM
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And 357 Sig is better than 38 Super +P generating about an extra 75 fps with that same bullet. Nothing I have seen in 38 Super can match that.

If power was all that mattered we would all be carrying 10mm pistols and 500 S&W revolvers.

Last edited by Dave Lively; 01-20-2022 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 01-20-2022, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stansdds View Post
Due the 38 Super's longer case, it requires a magazine that is too long for a 9x19 size pistol, so the 38 Super goes into a 45 ACP size pistol and that might be bit too big for some hands.
Depends on the pistol. In the 1911, the magazines are the same size. With the 9mm being so short, a spacer is required to get the round to seat further up in the magazine.
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Old 01-20-2022, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lively View Post
Have you ever seen an independent ammo review that measured pressure? I haven't. The equipment to measure pressure is too expensive for anyone except ammo manufacturers. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was too expensive for most of the boutique companies like Buffalo Bore.

After decades of seeing ammo makers greatly exaggerate their velocity claims until affordable chronographs made it hard to get away with I am not going to take their word for it when they claim they can get more velocity than everybody else without going over the SAAMI limits.

I once read an article about the Super Vel ammo from the 70s. This was ammo from the company that went bankrupt in the 70s, not the one making ammo recently under the same name. The author talked Black Hills into pressure testing it and it was about 10% over SAAMI limits. Ammo makers seem to have a "thou shall not speak ill of other ammo makers" rule when it comes to other companies that are still in business. I doubt they would agree to pressure test ammo from Buffalo Bore or Underwood.

I suspect a lot of the "full power" loads from small companies known for hot ammo are going over the SAAMI limits. Not by enough to blow a gun up but enough to cause malfunctions and accelerated wear in some guns. Basically +P loads for cartridges that do not have a +P spec. Nothing wrong with having ammo like that as a choice but it should be labeled as such. Which is kind of what Buffalo Bore does with their "Heavy" loads.
The statement below is from Buffalo Bore's website. Unless you have information that refutes it, I'll take their word for it.

Quote:
DOES BBA MAKE AMMO TO SAAMI SPECIFICATIONS?
Some of our loads do not have SAAMI standards. Loads such as 45 Colt+P, 9MM+P+, 45-70+P, 45 Super, 460 Rowland and there are many, many more, even though loading manuals produced by all the big bullet and powder manufacturers include data for creating such loads. If SAAMI does not even recognize such loads exist, then it would be impossible to make factory ammo that is SAAMI compliant for those loads.

However, our loads like 9MM, 9MM+P, 45 acp, 45 acp+P, 40 S&W, 380 auto, etc., etc., etc. are all SAAMI compliant.

In the last 25 years, there have been huge leaps forward in propellant development. We can get higher velocities at lower pressures than ever before, but if folks are stuck on using the older powders they learned on, they are missing this boat. Unfortunately, many of these cutting-edge powders are not available in canister form for the shooting public, yet.
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Old 01-20-2022, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STCM(SW) View Post
I have a 1911 with barrels for both 9mm & 38 Super.
The Super I use Buffalo Bore 124 gr JHP.
Don't see anything in 9mm that can match it.
1350 FPS/ME 502 Ft Lbs
Yea but it requires a large frame pistol. It's more appropriate to compare it to 10mm which has much more muzzle energy.

Even the lowly 40SW has more muzzle energy than 38 super and it fits in a small framed gun.
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Old 01-20-2022, 11:24 AM
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I do like my 38 Super firearms, I will carry at times my Colt Commander with Sig HP, can't remember the grain (125 HP?) off the top of my head, but for target practice out of the commander and a full size Colt Custom 1911, I use my reloads which are Hornady 125gr FP XTP .357 bullets being pushed by 6.5 grs of Power Pistol and Winchester primers give me good acuracy. I don't have a chrono, etc. since I consider myself a fun loving target shooter/plinker and reload to kill time and save money, but I do want to step-up my reloading game and buy addition equipment in the future.
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Old 01-20-2022, 01:41 PM
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If you want to safely make Major Performance in a 9MM sized frame then you need to be looking at the 356TSW cartridge

While the brass is longer than 9MM Parabellum (19MM vs 21.5MM) to avoid being used in firearms not set up for it, the Cartridge Overall Length of the 356TSW is the same as a 9MM Parabellum

The advantage is that the 356TSW has brass strong enough to operate at the cartridges 50,000 PSI limit. As has already been posted, 9MM Parabellum operates at just 35,000 PSI in cartridge casings that were designed over 100 years ago

356TSW can push a 124/125 grain projectile to over 1400 FPS, that is a Power Factor in the 173+ arena

Smith & Wesson developed this cartridge in the early 1990s in conjunction with Federal Cartridge







Smith & Wesson offered several auto loaders and a revolver chambered for this round but the timing was wrong

Over the years I have setup many firearms for the 356TSW cartridge. Among them are a Smith & Wesson M&P, 6904, Marlin Camp 9, Boberg XR9 and others


I also am a fan of the 38 Super, but when I REALLY need More Power



I have set up several of the auto loaders and revolvers for the 9x23 Winchester. This is a Colt offering that was produced in conjunction with Winchester that was also developed back in the early 1990s. It too met with bad timing.

According to Winchester at the time, this was the strongest pistol casing ever produced. The 9x23 Winchester operated at 55,000 PSI as opposed to the 38 Super's 36,500 PSI. Obviously with the 124/125 projectiles moving out over 1450 FPS, this cartridge hits the 180+ Power Factor

Colt sold sets consisting of slide, barrel and one magazine at bargain prices in the late 1990s and I had a spare 1911 frame lying around so I grabbed one



I really loved this combination. It was like shooting 357 Magnum in my Government Model. I do admit that the gun had some GREAT Bark when it was fired .

At the time the 9x23 Winchester really shined in hand loads of Winchester Action Powder, WAP for short. While WAP is no longer shipped under the Winchester banner, Ramshot's Silhouette is the same powder

Many years back, I set up one of the Model 627s with a second cylinderr for shooting 9x23 Winchester in that revolver. Since the auto loading cartridges moon clips are thicker than clips for rimmed revolver cartridges there was much less wobble on the reloads. It also helped that the 9x23 Winchester is shorter than the 357 Magnum cartridge.
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Old 01-20-2022, 03:05 PM
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Question

I don't like to copy long previous posts, but as far as colt_ssa's most excellent post is concerned I do need to ask a few questions and opine a bit...

How hard is it to find 356TSW ammo and/or brass these days?

Ditto for the 9x23?

Why, if you can get both 9mm & a 40 S&W in a 1911 platform, did nobody ever come out with one in 357 SIG?

Seems to me to be an opportunity: and a 357 SIG revolver (along the lines of the Charter Arms Pitbull) would almost be a no-brainer!

Cheers!

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Old 01-20-2022, 03:20 PM
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The 9mm "Major load" can reach a 90% 357 magnum standard load rating
but the pistol is going to be beat to death over time by the slide.

The 38 Super is designed for high pressures and faster fps loads with modern pistols
even though this load was developed in the "Roaring 20's" times of
boot legging, loose women and fast get away cars..........
plus or minus a few years.

Even back then the bad guys knew that this pistol ammo was heads and shoulders
above the new 38 special the was issued to the LE people.

Well, that my two cents worth of all the knowlege that my little pea picking brain, holds.

Later.
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Old 01-20-2022, 03:44 PM
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.38 Super is superior ballistically considering g velocity for bullet weight. Plus, it just sounds better and was designed to run in the 1911, the greatest close quarters weapon ever devised.
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Old 01-20-2022, 04:10 PM
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Talking 9mm Major

I got started in USPSA shooting in 1989-90 and the 9mm major loading had already been banned. Too many people were using unsupported chambers and having blowouts. The magazine blows out of the gun and slide and frame sustain damage(which may be severe). The major power factor required was 175 at the time....since lowered to 165.

All the open shooters at my club run 9mm major in their STI or SV grip frames. Primary reason the do it is the availability of once-fired 9mm brass is limitless. I have recently seen one catastrophic blowup. The shooter wasn't injured nor were any bystanders. The gun was toast. Local shooters here handload their ammo and NEVER retrieve the brass!
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Old 01-20-2022, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN View Post
I don't like to copy long previous posts, but as far as colt_ssa's most excellent post is concerned I do need to ask a few questions and opine a bit...

How hard is it to find 356TSW ammo and/or brass these days?
Thank you for the kind words Sir

There are currently 3 or 4 loadings availble from Underwood and Cor-Bon

A third manufacturer was supposed to have released two additional loadings last year but the Dreaded China Virus Crisis destroyed the time line to a release date.

There is a fourth manufacturer (a BIG one) that is waiting to see how things progress, but they are ready to hit the market with ammunition if the cartridge has a good resurrection

A bit over two years ago Starline ran 100,000 pieces of 356TSW brass for a distributor that has put some of it in the supply chain. One of the manufacturers had 200,000 pieces of brass produced by a different source.

So it is out there, you just have to work for it

Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN View Post
Ditto for the 9x23?
Winchester's last run of 9x23 Winchester brass was about 5 years ago. About 4 years ago I bought the remnant (littler scrap) that was at the bottom of the last drum of brass. It was several thousand pieces.

There are several cartridge names that are really 9x23 Winchester clones. 9x23 Comp is one of those clones and it is offered by Starline. That brass used to be head stamped 9x23 Super Comp unforunatly some folks were confusing that with 38 Super.

There is also 38 Super Comp, also currently available from Starline. This is a rimless version of the 9x23 Winchester offering. Supposedly for better feeding.

Many folks do not realize that 38 ACP, 38 Super and 9x23 Winchester are all semi rimmed cartridges.

Personally I do not see the need for the rimless version. All of my 38 SUPERs run great and I do not recall any stories of chronic feeding problems with the rimed cartridge

On a side note, thee are folks that have used any and all of the above cartridges and trimmed them down to 21.5MM for use as 356TSW brass. There is a very slight loss of internal capacity in these cases. So 356TSW loads are going to be reduced a tiny bit in converted brass


Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN View Post
Why, if you can get both 9mm & a 40 S&W in a 1911 platform, did nobody ever come out with one in 357 SIG?

Seems to me to be an opportunity: and a 357 SIG revolver (along the lines of the Charter Arms Pitbull) would almost be a no-brainer!
Several 1911 manufacturers have offered pistols over the years that were chambered in 357SIG. Limber and SIG come to mind right off the top of my head, but there were others.

They never really went anywhere afterall the concept of the 357SIG cartridge was to put 357 Magnum performance into 9MM sized Firearms

Do not get me wrong, I am a Big supporter of the 357SIG cartridge. I was working Dallas County when Texas DPS was evaluating the cartridge and SIG firearms in the early 1990s. My DPS Model 239 is sitting in the other room right next to my MP5/357. Yes a 357SIG submachine gun that can put 30 rouns of 357SIG on target in roughly 2 seconds
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Old 01-20-2022, 07:34 PM
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Leggings, fast women and loose get-away cars are just so passe'...

Oh, Ed! You meant THOSE Roaring 20's"?

What about THESE "20's"?

Cheers!

P.S. You weren't really around, then, were you?
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Old 01-20-2022, 07:38 PM
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SIG made a 1911 in 357 SIG? I'm totally flabbergasted!

Back to the Search function!

Cheers!

P.S. And they just HAD to call it the NIGHTMARE!

I WANT one!

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Old 01-20-2022, 09:16 PM
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I have extensive experience with the 9x23mm Winchester. When I was with the USAF I was in charge of a development project for a new handgun for USAF use (this was around 2007-08), and the decision at the AF CoS level was that it had to be more powerful than the 9x19. I worked with Winchester on the ammunition, and they made up several thousand rounds of 9x23 Win for testing using the standard 124 grain FMJ military bullet. I still have some of that custom loaded Winchester ammo plus several thousand unfired cases. For development and performance testing I used a M1911 and 9mm barrels I had re-chambered for 9x23. I handloaded thousands of rounds for testing and found that 8.7 grains of AA #5 was about as far as I wanted to go, MV was running over 1450 ft/sec from the 5" barrel. We tested them extensively at the 50 Meter tube range at Lackland AFB. Unfortunately, the pistol project had the personal backing of USAF Chief of Staff Gen. Michael Moseley, who was subsequently fired as the result of an embarrassing nuclear weapons incident. So the pistol project died before it got very far into the really interesting stage of finding a suitable platform. However, I still use those test barrels in my personal M1911. Another interesting item was that I had the 9x23 barrel made up by Elmer Ballance. For those who don't know the name, he was the initial founder of Springfield Armory. The original SA manufacturing facility was about two blocks from my home in San Antonio.

The 9x23 Winchester casing has an interesting history I won't get into as it is lengthy. But the main feature was that it had a higher inside base that would not rupture if fired in an unsupported barrel. By the way, SAAMI has established specs for the 9x23 Winchester cartridge and chamber. The maximum average chamber pressure is 55,000 PSI.

"Many folks do not realize that 38 ACP, 38 Super and 9x23 Winchester are all semi rimmed cartridges."

The 9x23 Win case has a conventional rimless base, like the 9x19, not semi-rim like the .38 ACP and Super. So does the Starline 9mm Super Comp case. It also has a slight case taper, unlike the .38 ACP and Super which are straight. However, the 9x23 can be handloaded just fine using .38 Super dies. I have both 9x23 and .38 Super die sets, and normally use only the .38 Super set. The 9x23 cartridge will fit and can also be fired in a .38 Super chamber and vice versa.

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Old 01-20-2022, 09:29 PM
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SIG made a 1911 in 357 SIG? I'm totally flabbergasted!

Back to the Search function!

Cheers!

P.S. And they just HAD to call it the NIGHTMARE!

I WANT one!
They offered various configurations and barrel lengths

When they stopped making them, they put the remaining barrels up for sale on their website. Some of the Commander length barrels as well as magazines are still listed
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Old 01-20-2022, 09:41 PM
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No matter how old I get people still compare 38 super to 9mm. The super is a hot round when properly loaded that is much faster that the 9mm. The problem is the ammo companies never loaded the super to its potential for some reason until Super Vel. I'm glad we have Underwood and buffalo bore these days to bring this round to its potential.
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Old 01-20-2022, 09:52 PM
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The .38 Super cartridge has a fairly convoluted history regarding its power level vs. the .38 ACP. It's a little too long to get into here, but you can search for it. Part of the problem has been that the earliest Colt autopistols chambered the .38 ACP and its lookalike the .38 Super. However, higher pressure loads can irreparably damage those pistols.
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Old 01-21-2022, 03:42 AM
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Unfortunately, the pistol project had the personal backing of USAF Chief of Staff Gen. Michael Moseley, who was subsequently fired as the result of an embarrassing nuclear weapons incident.
Uh, those are words you never want to see strung together!
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Old 01-21-2022, 11:14 AM
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The .38 Super cartridge has a fairly convoluted history regarding its power level vs. the .38 ACP. It's a little too long to get into here, but you can search for it. Part of the problem has been that the earliest Colt autopistols chambered the .38 ACP and its lookalike the .38 Super. However, higher pressure loads can irreparably damage those pistols.
So true. The 38 ACP was a low pressure pistol cartridge. When Colt put it in the 1911, a far more robust pistol, they simply hot rodded the cartridge and gave it a new name. Of course, Colt wasn't the only one to do something like that. S&W hot rodded the old 38 Special and named it .38-44 HD.
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Old 01-21-2022, 11:46 AM
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A few years ago, picked up a new RIA M1911A1 GI 5" in .38 Super.
Had wanted a Super for years and this was very affordable.
Fully supported chamber.
Sent the slide off to Novak for better sights (I can't do GI sights), placed some double diamond cherrywood-look VZ grips on it. Polished the feed ramp and chamber.

Started researching upper-level Super loads intended for supported chambers. I was quite surprised. With 124/5 gr. bullets and proper powders, you can easily edge into .357 Mag territory with that weight bullet.
I was also quite surprised at the accuracy of this beer-budget 1911, even with these upper-level handloads. No signs of excess pressure.
Returning to factory .38 Super ammo truly made the gun feel like a 9mm.

Did recently get a 9mm barrel for it for range use. Don't have a great supply of Super brass and it's hard to find right now. Darn stuff is pesky to find/pick up on my grassy range.
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Old 01-21-2022, 11:59 AM
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Anyone shooting hot loads I’d suggest a heavier recoil spring and shock buffer. Factory loads, I wouldn’t worry too much but those heavy loads can really pound a frame.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I cracked my Caspian frame shooting major loads. Not only did I crack the frame I destroyed 2 Aimpoint red dots. These were the 1990’s versions that were tubes not the little micro red dots you see now. One of them, the electrical circuit failed and the second, one half of the tube unscrewed from the body of the scope. There’s a huge amount of shock when shooting those heavy loads that eventually will damage the gun or dot.
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Old 01-21-2022, 12:09 PM
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And 357 Sig is better than 38 Super +P generating about an extra 75 fps with that same bullet. Nothing I have seen in 38 Super can match that.
And 9x25 Dillon beats that
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Old 01-21-2022, 12:17 PM
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Caspian frames are cast . Years ago they were considered a great value & quality was much better . Unfortunately they aint what they were . Better 1911 frames these days . Ask yourself why many custom 1911 'smiths will no longer build on a Caspian frame . Nothing wrong with cast , it made Ruger . High pressure loads wear the heck out of stuff & sooner or later one pays the piper .
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Old 01-21-2022, 12:23 PM
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Caspian frames are cast . Years ago they were considered a great value & quality was much better . Unfortunately they aint what they were . Better 1911 frames these days . Ask yourself why many custom 1911 'smiths will no longer build on a Caspian frame . Nothing wrong with cast , it made Ruger . High pressure loads wear the heck out of stuff & sooner or later one pays the piper .
The Caspian I had was from the early 90’s.
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Old 01-21-2022, 01:05 PM
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Anyone shooting hot loads I’d suggest a heavier recoil spring and shock buffer. Factory loads, I wouldn’t worry too much but those heavy loads can really pound a frame.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I cracked my Caspian frame shooting major loads. Not only did I crack the frame I destroyed 2 Aimpoint red dots. These were the 1990’s versions that were tubes not the little micro red dots you see now. One of them, the electrical circuit failed and the second, one half of the tube unscrewed from the body of the scope. There’s a huge amount of shock when shooting those heavy loads that eventually will damage the gun or dot.
Wow, you must have shot a boatload of Major rounds through the gun to have that happen. Mine was built on a Para frame with a Caspian slide. I shot a fair amount of Major rounds through it, but most practice sessions were non-Major rounds. I never had a problem with the ProPoint 3 I was running.

The frame and slide were fine, and are now the gun below after converting it away from an Unlimited gun. I did always run shock buffs however.

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Old 01-21-2022, 05:06 PM
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I've read this thread with much interest, trying to learn about .38Super. I just bought a RIA GI Standard FS 1911, and bought a box of factory ammo to play with until I get dies to reload with. I've wanted a .38 Super for some time, and the RIA seems a well-built 1911, very tight.

I'm curious regarding the specs on the ammo box. it's PMC ammo, 130 gr. FMJ, and the box says "+P", and 1100 fps MV. When I compare this to the .38 Super loads in my 10th Ed. Hornady manual, Hornady shows 1100 fps as sort of mid-range for both 125 and 140 grain bullets in their load data (they don't list a 130 grain). If that's the case, then is the PMC ammo really +P? In any case, it should be fine to shoot, right?
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Old 01-21-2022, 06:23 PM
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Wow, you must have shot a boatload of Major rounds through the gun to have that happen. Mine was built on a Para frame with a Caspian slide. I shot a fair amount of Major rounds through it, but most practice sessions were non-Major rounds. I never had a problem with the ProPoint 3 I was running.

The frame and slide were fine, and are now the gun below after converting it away from an Unlimited gun. I did always run shock buffs however.

If Liberace had joined the army, I would imagine that to be his choice for a 45.
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Old 01-21-2022, 07:26 PM
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I've read this thread with much interest, trying to learn about .38Super. I just bought a RIA GI Standard FS 1911, and bought a box of factory ammo to play with until I get dies to reload with. I've wanted a .38 Super for some time, and the RIA seems a well-built 1911, very tight.

I'm curious regarding the specs on the ammo box. it's PMC ammo, 130 gr. FMJ, and the box says "+P", and 1100 fps MV. When I compare this to the .38 Super loads in my 10th Ed. Hornady manual, Hornady shows 1100 fps as sort of mid-range for both 125 and 140 grain bullets in their load data (they don't list a 130 grain). If that's the case, then is the PMC ammo really +P? In any case, it should be fine to shoot, right?
I believe you will find that all newer factory .38 Super ammunition carries the +P designation. Just a way to distinguish it from the weaker .38 ACP, which is dimensionally identical to the .38 Super.

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Old 01-21-2022, 07:43 PM
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Wow, you must have shot a boatload of Major rounds through the gun to have that happen. Mine was built on a Para frame with a Caspian slide. I shot a fair amount of Major rounds through it, but most practice sessions were non-Major rounds. I never had a problem with the ProPoint 3 I was running.

The frame and slide were fine, and are now the gun below after converting it away from an Unlimited gun. I did always run shock buffs however.

I did shoot a boatload of major rounds through it.

After destroying a couple of Aimpoints I had a new dovetail Mount installed and went to Propoint and never had another problem.
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Old 01-22-2022, 12:52 AM
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I've read this thread with much interest, trying to learn about .38Super. I just bought a RIA GI Standard FS 1911, and bought a box of factory ammo to play with until I get dies to reload with. I've wanted a .38 Super for some time, and the RIA seems a well-built 1911, very tight.

I'm curious regarding the specs on the ammo box. it's PMC ammo, 130 gr. FMJ, and the box says "+P", and 1100 fps MV. When I compare this to the .38 Super loads in my 10th Ed. Hornady manual, Hornady shows 1100 fps as sort of mid-range for both 125 and 140 grain bullets in their load data (they don't list a 130 grain). If that's the case, then is the PMC ammo really +P? In any case, it should be fine to shoot, right?
As DWalt noted, the +P designation is really to keep people from shooting the ammo in the old .38 ACP guns. Your RIA is strong and perfectly safe with any factory .38 Super +P ammo. I'm not familiar enough with it to know if the RIA has a fully supported chamber which would be required if you wanted to load it up to the potential that the Super can attain safely.
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Old 01-22-2022, 09:19 AM
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I've read this thread with much interest, trying to learn about .38Super. I just bought a RIA GI Standard FS 1911, and bought a box of factory ammo to play with until I get dies to reload with. I've wanted a .38 Super for some time, and the RIA seems a well-built 1911, very tight.

I'm curious regarding the specs on the ammo box. it's PMC ammo, 130 gr. FMJ, and the box says "+P", and 1100 fps MV. When I compare this to the .38 Super loads in my 10th Ed. Hornady manual, Hornady shows 1100 fps as sort of mid-range for both 125 and 140 grain bullets in their load data (they don't list a 130 grain). If that's the case, then is the PMC ammo really +P? In any case, it should be fine to shoot, right?

Your RIA made 1911 is perfectly safe for any factory 38 Super ammo. As for the stated velocity you will find on boxes of factory 38 Super, measured velocity will vary depending upon the length of the test barrel. If PMC used a 4 inch barrel, then 1100 fps sounds about right. I think most manufacturers use a 5 inch barrel and 130 grain bullets typically make 1200 fps. It's also possible that PMC is worried that someone will chamber their ammo in an older, 38 ACP pistol, so they have downloaded it to something just a tiny bit more than 38 ACP.


If you want to reload 38 Super to its full potential, I'd recommend one very important change to the pistol. The firing pin stop in the 1911-A1 has a very generous radius on its bottom edge, this was to make it easier for horse mounted soldiers to rack the slide to chamber a round. Fitting a 1911 style firing pin stop with a tiny radius (aka: flat bottom firing pin stop) will add a lot of resistance to the slide as the slide begins to move rearward during firing. This is a more reliable way to control the unlocking of the breach rather than swapping in heavy recoil springs that will make the slide slam forward with far more energy onto the slide stop pin.
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Old 01-22-2022, 09:22 AM
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Sure, it’s prob a bit better ballistically- but when you try to find bulk ammo at a decent price it certainly isn’t better. But when it comes to 1911s, I won’t own one in 9mm.
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Old 01-22-2022, 09:29 AM
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Sure, it’s prob a bit better ballistically- but when you try to find bulk ammo at a decent price it certainly isn’t better. But when it comes to 1911s, I won’t own one in 9mm.
I know people who have 1911's in 9x19mm and they love them. I have always viewed the 1911 as too big of a firearm for the short 9mm cartridge. But, it is true that 9x19mm ammo is cheaper than 38 Super ammo and that is not a new phenomenon, but is how it has always been.
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Old 01-22-2022, 09:56 AM
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Sure, it’s prob a bit better ballistically- but when you try to find bulk ammo at a decent price it certainly isn’t better. But when it comes to 1911s, I won’t own one in 9mm.
Certainly a not-uncommon viewpoint, and half agree.
I just really enjoy 1911's, and have, or have had them in .22, 9mm, .38 Super, 10mm, and .45's in all the common barrel lengths of 3", 4.25" and 5".

For a 'carry' piece in full size 9mm, agree it doesn't make a lot of sense - but I suppose one could do worse. Can be a great range piece and of course much cheaper to shoot, possibly serving as an understudy for a similar gun in .45.

Personally, if I did not handload, I'd not own one in .38 Super or 10mm.
There's just not enough variety of ammo available and now it's terribly expensive. My supply of 10mm brass is great, since that was my agency's duty round from ~1989 to 1999/2000. I have a LOT of 10mm brass!
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Old 01-22-2022, 10:38 AM
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I held out as long as I can.
Interesting read.

I’ll simply post “Better?”
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Old 01-22-2022, 11:06 AM
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What's the rush? For most, it's a fun, exciting paper punch.

The ammunition manufacturers spend millions to convince us that faster is somehow better.
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Old 01-22-2022, 11:06 AM
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But when it comes to 1911s, I won’t own one in 9mm.
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I know people who have 1911's in 9x19mm and they love them. I have always viewed the 1911 as too big of a firearm for the short 9mm cartridge.
I'm not a huge fan of 9mm in general, and I agree the 1911 is a bit oversized for the caliber. Springfield Armory's EMP's changed the game, IMO, when the entire gun's dimensions were "downsized" to better suit the 9mm cartridge. I have an EMP4 and absolutely love the gun. It's more than just a Commander-sized 1911 (or should I say 'less'?). It feels perfect in the hand and is the ideal size for 9mm.
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Old 01-22-2022, 11:47 AM
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Certainly a not-uncommon viewpoint, and half agree.
I just really enjoy 1911's, and have, or have had them in .22, 9mm, .38 Super, 10mm, and .45's in all the common barrel lengths of 3", 4.25" and 5".

For a 'carry' piece in full size 9mm, agree it doesn't make a lot of sense - but I suppose one could do worse. Can be a great range piece and of course much cheaper to shoot, possibly serving as an understudy for a similar gun in .45.

Personally, if I did not handload, I'd not own one in .38 Super or 10mm.
There's just not enough variety of ammo available and now it's terribly expensive. My supply of 10mm brass is great, since that was my agency's duty round from ~1989 to 1999/2000. I have a LOT of 10mm brass!

I too, have had M1911 platforms in .22, .38 Special, .38 Super and .45 ACP. After carrying a M1911 for 24 years in the Corps, there is only one caliber that I will carry for defense if I have anything to say about it and theat is .45 ACP.
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Old 01-22-2022, 12:09 PM
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The .38 Super cartridge has a fairly convoluted history regarding its power level vs. the .38 ACP. It's a little too long to get into here, but you can search for it. Part of the problem has been that the earliest Colt autopistols chambered the .38 ACP and its lookalike the .38 Super. However, higher pressure loads can irreparably damage those pistols.
My first 1911 was actually an early 80's production Llama- I know, please don't snicker. I was only 12.- in 9mm Largo. I only shot factory .38 Super in it and never had any issues over several hundred rounds before I sold it to buy a .45. Bottom line, though, is that I got to appreciate the Super pretty early on. Later I acquired a Kimber Stainless HDII in .38 Super that was just great but sold because I just don't care a whit for firing pin safeties. It shot wonderfully and ran very reliably and smoothly.
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Old 01-22-2022, 01:14 PM
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SuperMan...Man of Many Supers...not even sure how many at this point...

Can't really add anything to the excellent posts above... Have been shooting and carrying the Super daily since 1980s...in a Commander size gun at 31 oz. loaded with ten rounds of 1560 fps ammo...what could be better...

Some links:

https://web.archive.org/web/20170624...//38super.net/

Corbon

Head to Head: .38 Super vs. 9 mm | An Official Journal Of The NRA

38 Super Loads: We Like Buffalo Bores Jacketed HPs - Gun Tests

How Does

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/38-super-automatic-p

https://reloadammo.com/reloading-380-super-auto/

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...38-super/99160

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...r-loads/326242


Makes a GREAT revolver round also... Have had both the Ruger LCR and S&W 940 and with +P ammo ejection can be VERY sticky. Have not had that problem with the 649 in .38 Super....

Great round...Bob
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Old 01-22-2022, 02:24 PM
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DWalt DWalt is offline
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38 Super better then 9 mm 38 Super better then 9 mm 38 Super better then 9 mm 38 Super better then 9 mm 38 Super better then 9 mm  
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Originally Posted by SuperMan View Post

(.38 Super) Makes a GREAT revolver round also... Have had both the Ruger LCR and S&W 940 and with +P ammo ejection can be VERY sticky. Have not had that problem with the 649 in .38 Super....
Just to close the loop, some .38 Special/.357 revolvers can chamber some brands of .38 Super ammunition due to chamber and cartridge case dimensional tolerance overlaps. And can be used in such revolvers if the .38 Super cartridge case fits due to the presence of a semi-rim. Not a recommended practice to do that, but .38 Super factory loads seem to be fairly mild when fired in a revolver. It's much like firing .32 ACP ammo in a revolver chambered for .32 S&W Long. Also not recommended, but it can be done if you ever need to do it.

Last edited by DWalt; 01-22-2022 at 02:30 PM.
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