Greetings,

This is a hypothetical question centered on the new 30 Super Carry.

I was perusing through the data Remington has published on their new 30 Super Carry round. They advertise that 30SC will have "9mm-like performance with less recoil and more rounds".

They showed a comparison chart between 9mm (9x19), the 30 Super Carry and 380 Auto (9x17), providing numbers for each bullet weight, velocity and energy delivered. Indeed the 30SC had a lighter bullet and a higher velocity, which is how I presume they achieved the energy delivered with supposedly less recoil.

Here is the scenario and my (uneducated) questions...

IF someone were to use the 380 Auto's bullet (same weight as the 30SC bullet but with the larger diameter of the 9mm bullet), with the current 9mm casing and powder load,

THEN would the combination of greater velocity PLUS greater cross-sectional area (for more energy delivered) AND the lighter weight bullet (for less recoil) give a shooter even greater benefits than the new 30SC (other than the supposed "extra rounds", of course)?

Are my presumptions anywhere close to correct?
Could this combination be used in existing 9mm pistols?
Has anyone tried this before?

I ask this only out of morbid curiosity.

`Guarantee it has been tried. Does the scenario work?? Only answer is maybe. You can only go so far with the light bullet/extra velocity, though. Not knowing if the velocities of the new round are true...just too many variables. I happen to have a couple 327 Federal handguns. Supposed to be as good as a 357...maybe. Best answer is...in my opinion you pays yer money and takes yer chances. Then remember though...just like so many other items such as clothes cars and trucks and computers etc etc... The whole point is to separate you from your money. Usually by selling you something new and improved! or not

In the formula used by most ammo companies, the velocity factor in the formula is squared and thus has a greater impact on the result than bullet weight. Bullet diameter has no inclusion in the standard formula. The higher the velocity, the more influence it has on the formula over bullet weight which remains static. That's how they can make the claim.

Regarding using a light 380 bullet in the 9mm: That was popular in the 70s with advent of HP service loads (lead by the Supervel Company). At the time, you could get the 9mm loaded with a 90grain JHP with a pretty high velocity. It never really caught on as it lacked penetration, and in some handguns, it was none to reliable. There's probably a reason it isn't issued as a service round by any law enforcement agencies that I know of.

Real street performance varies with all ammo and calibers depending on many factors. A one solution prediction rarely holds water on the street. Factors such as the clothing worn, location of the hit(s), mental toughness of the target, drug use, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

My personal experience is that handguns rarely perform as advertised, at least with the ones you can carry for an entire shift on a daily basis.

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Keep your powder dry.

In my opinion, all the world really needs in the way of handgun ammo can be met by perhaps three or four cartridge calibers at most. Maybe the same number of calibers for rifles. All the rest exist solely for the purpose of making more money for gun and ammunition manufacturers.

380acp, 9mm, 38 Super & 357 SIG all typically use bullets with a .355-.356" diameter. There are many premium bullets, typically in the 90gr range, loaded (Corbon, Underwood, SuperVel, etc.: Hornady even loads a .357" 90gr bullet in 38 Special with 288 ft/lbs Muzzle Energy) or reloaded in these calibers. Typically higher velocity (& claimed energy: well, sometimes?) than standard 115 or 124gr 9mm factory loadings.

The 30 SC's (supposed?) "advantage" is more rounds with more velocity and energy with "less recoil" in the same (or smaller?) package... Whether a round or two, a hundred fps or a few more ft/lbs of energy or less perceived recoil can be really appreciated is, IMHO, questionable at best. Whether it is actually needed, versus the obvious problems of getting a new platform and ammunition, is a bigger issue.

I personally think they should have just called it the "30 $uper Carry"!

Cheers!

P.S. A while ago one could even purchase a .355" 65gr Lehigh Xtreme Defender solid bullet in 357 SIG from Underwood with an advertised velocity of 2100fps and 637 ft/lbs Muzzle Energy!. (No "less recoil" there!)

This bullet was also loaded into 380 acp & 9mm cases.

Most people that actually shot a 30 SC handgun at SHOT show said it has the same recoil as the 9mm version. And some of the company representatives were saying the same.

The company reps seemed to have two different narratives of 30 SC with some of them saying the cartridge was designed to split the difference between 380 and 9mm in terms of power/recoil and others saying the cartridge had about the same power/recoil as a standard pressure 9mm round. Those saying the 30 SC is nearly as powerful as 9mm have chronograph results to back them up so I am going to believe them. The same power but less recoil claims may be the result of the two narratives being inaccurately combined.

Reading between the lines I think the design goals were to increase capacity with the lowest power/recoil that still has enough power to provide adequate expansion and penetration. They were hoping this would mean a power level half way between 380 and 9mm but needed more power to get enough performance so they ended up with near 9mm power. Which is too bad because if the 30 SC was half way between 380 and 9mm we could have had guns half way between a Ruger LCP and the current micro 9s in terms of size and weight. And less recoil in any gun shooting 30 SC.

As is main advantage of 30 SC is more capacity. They were hoping to design a round that did to 9mm what 9mm with modern bullets did to 40. Once the darling of law enforcement, the gun press and gun enthusiasts 40 S&W is much less popular now because the same gun in 9mm has a 1 or two more rounds of capacity, less recoil and enough power to be nearly as effective. If they had been able to design a cartridge that had all those same advantages over 9mm it would have been very popular. More capacity is a real advantage and I will give the cartridge a try when it is chambered in the right gun. But I would be a lot more enthusiastic if less recoil with adequate performance had also been possible.

YAWN..........Probably be as popular as the 45gap.

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S&W Accumulator

It's been tried before ... for one instance - When developing the P08 Luger it was at first designed around the 30 Mauser , .310"dia- 86 grs. wt. @ 1410 fps . Well it was discovered that although fast the 30 cal. bullet lacked hitting power .
So the designers increased the bullet dia. to .355" and the bullet weight to 124 grains @ a velocity of 1200 fps and Wah-Lah ... ever hear of the 9mm Luger ... how many men have succumed to a 35 cal bullet at 1200 fps ...a lot ... think two World Wars .

The 30 cal. cartridges have been tried many times but they usually just fade away after time . Revolver cartridges in 30 cal. seem to do much better than semi-auto cartridges .
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

If memory serves me, well, well the Russians had and maybe still have a little hottie of a .30 cal. pistol round, little high pressure load for semi-auto pistols that has a reputation for being a wham bam of a banger for pistols and submachine guns. And, of course, lest we forget, Mauser had a little .30 round for their once popular C-96. The little Russian load was just enough different to not be a good choice for substitution. Now the .30S comes along ... lets one load more bang in the magazine for moments when a social encounter goes badly down hill. What to do? What to do? Well, since I've had my second mug of happy juice for the morning, I'll offer this little bit of wit. Let it go! Give it time and we'll all know if it is a whizz ... or if it is a fizz! For my part, I'm just plumb tickled that folks with inventive minds are coming up with calibers/firearms that keep simple minds like mine occupied! Otherwise, life would get so incredibly boring! Now, I must turn my attention from all things S&W to all things focused on Jesus. There is a line beginning to form at our food pantry. I'll go put my hand to that good work ... but later, when I have time, I'll return to this interesting thread. Ya'll have fun! Sincerely. bruce.

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Well said Mike.....
Let us not forget the 5mmRem rimfire, the myriad WSSM (Win. super short magnums) rifle cartridges etc etc etc....

The good news is that you won't be able to buy ammo on that wasted new gun.... The bad news is if you ever find a box of ammo, you'll need to take out a load to purchase it :-))))) More bad news, when you realize you want to sell it, no one will buy it and you'll have to throw away all the brass that you bought new and also overpaid for (IF you were a handloader).

IMHO,
J.

Wow! A brand-new subject! "Better? Light/Fast vs. Heavy/Slow!"

Somone call me when you decide...

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Pisgah

Calculated recoil energy is based on the bullet weight, powder weight, bullet velocity and the weight of the gun. As someone else said, since in the equation velocity is squared, it makes a bigger difference than weight does. Most loading manuals have the equation listed. It is an easy calculation that you can put in Excel to compare loads.

As for "felt" recoil, or "perceived" recoil, that depends on the impulse of the recoil "how long the burn occurs" as well as the muzzle blast. Loud guns seem to recoil more to the shooter (all in your head, but it is perceived). Some folks describe recoil as a "push" or "snappy". A push would most likely be a longer burn on the powder and the snappy would be a quicker burn. This is all almost impossible to quantify.

As for ballistics, you can easily load lighter bullets in the 9mm and get the same velocities to match the 30 TC. I have tried out the Leihigh 68 grain in 9mm and am hitting over 1500 FPS with 0 pressure signs, haven't gotten around to bumping up the powder and see what I get in the 3.5" barrel I tried it in.

Some of the listed 30SC loads were in the same weight range as the 9mm, seems like I saw 115 grain. Only benefit you get there is maybe 2 extra rounds in the mag and maybe more penetration (a .312 bullet would have a higher sectional density than the equivalent weight in .355).

I see this is just another gimmick to sell guns (remember the short mags and ultra mags?). Some folks will jump on it because they don't know or they like the latest and greatest. Either way, nothing wrong with the cartridge. Just it doesn't really solve any problem.

Rosewood

It irritates me they have resources to put new cartridge on market but can’t manage to pump out anything but Para military calibers. Of which sells out all the time. Anything else that doesn’t sell by the bulk pack is ignored. The only reason for 30SC is to sell another batch of pistols.

Yes, 380 bullets (90 to 100 grain) work in 9 MM, 38 Spl, and 357 Mag. Yes, you pull the trigger, and the gun goes bang. Up close and personal accuracy is good. 25 yards is a challenge (2 foot square target 12 /12 hits on the paper), and 50 yards is a dream (7/12 and a turkey could fly through the pattern).

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S&WHF 366

There are people out there loading 9mm into the same velocity range as 30SC. Google "9mm Major". These loads are being shot out of guns setup specifically to shoot these very hot loads.

FWIW VihtaVouri has 115 grain 9mm reload data that is in the 1300 FPS and some even hitting 1400 FPS. They don't list the pressure but I assume it is within 9mm or 9mm+P pressure ranges.

"FWIW VihtaVouri has 115 grain 9mm reload data that is in the 1300 FPS and some even hitting 1400 FPS. They don't list the pressure but I assume it is within 9mm or 9mm+P pressure ranges." Ah yes! Till they get laser beams perfected for general use ... these apocalyptic loads will serve just fine! Yeah boy! Sincerely. bruce.

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Since I didn’t get to go to the SHOT Show, I have to ask… what pistol(s) are/will be available for this new wonder cartridge. Will it just be another iteration of Combat Tupperware? Curious minds…

Froggie

There is an all copper 77 gr load for the 9mm that goes 1600 fps. It only goes 10 inches in gel and expands nicely.

There are other 90 gr loads that hit 1500 fps in the right barrel length. You can match that with hand loads.

From the videos on YouTube. You can get it in the S&w ez and nighthawk custom. Apparently federal shopped all the manufacturers. These are the only ones who took them up on it.

In the midst of an ammo shortage, we do NOT need another cartridge. Just produce more of what we are buying!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It appears as if Norma Ammunition has answered my questions!

9mm - 65gr - NORMA NXD - Self-Defense - QTY 20 - Norma Shooting

65 Gr. copper projectile at 1730 ft/sec yielding 432 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. I guess we'll see if the "lighter and faster" trend is just another fad.

It was an ignorant fad 40 years ago based on junk science, and now we get to see the same ignorance, junk science, and bad marketing again.

Good to see that history repeats itself, ad nauseum, ad infintium.

I’ve done various loads with lighter than average Lehigh Defense copper bullets, 380, 9mm, 38 special. One can get a fair bit more speed, many of the bullets stay intact, no expansion on impact.

I’m not advocating anything, just doing my own testing.

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I am getting about 1720 fps with the 68gr lh in 9mm 6904 using Cfe pistol powder. No pressure signs to boot. Haven't tried any penetration test. Hit about 1920 with 6.5"bbl.

How does one go about looking for pressure signs in a medium pressure cartridge like 9mm Luger? Pressure signs in high pressure rifle rounds is one thing, firing "hot" rounds in a revolver where you might see cartridges getting sticky in the chamber, but you will see NO pressure signs in lower pressure cartridges like 9mm. Hot loading for such calibers can be quite dangerous, because if you don't have a way of actually measuring pressure, you can be getting dangerously high for the rated cartridge easily.

Primers and smoky cases are good indications. A flattened primer is a good indication of high pressure. I have seen many factory rounds with flattened primers. I make sure my rounds are not flattened as much as those. Rounds that are are real smoky after shooting are an indication of low pressure because the case isn't expanding to seal the chamber and is letting gas leak by. Battered case is also a good indication of over pressure.

45 ACP, 38 special are low pressure IHMO I wouldn't consider a 9mm as low pressure. A 9mm is rated at 35,000 PSI which is the same rating as a 357 mag and a 9mm +P is higher than that. 40 S&W is also about the same.

I had loaded about .4 grains more of powder and was getting flattened primers indeed, when I backed off, they look nice.

Rosewood

And anothet unnecessary caliber makes me wonder. If ammo companies “supposedly” can’t keep up with demand on established calibers, why come out and push a new one?

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Academy sports Thursday

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I remember years ago reading about people from outside industries getting into, or advising, gun industry. Saying ammunition and firearm profit margins are too thin (from some guy who worked in clothing retail), and marketeers who transformed shooting sports advertising to the embarrassing mess it is today. And on and on.

I think the waves of new calibers the last several years is bad advice from such people. NEW NEW NEW, create the illusion of innovation and change even if there is none, always telling everyone to be a good little consumerist and wait for whatever garbage they puke on you at Shot Show because it is the big event we should all focus on. Ect., ect.

Showing their ignorance and misunderstanding of something they don't know. Firearms are the one place where old technology and cartridges have the advantage over new, especially cartridges. In fact, every new cartridge is a step backwards for the shooting sports, and another divide nobody asked for. Not to mention, producing guns for a caliber nobody will stock for.

Straight to obsolescence has been the trend for a while. I honestly don't think they contribute much to shortages, because they are limited production to begin with, and they taper off to almost nothing when they fail as usual.

On one hand, a new round is interesting to read about. However, JUST DELIVER MORE PRIMERS! PLEEEAAAASSSSSEEEE!

Your getting into the realm of "what if" sedentary textbook gunfighting here. This is a very popular Internet topic particularly among the newschoolers, Youtubers, platformers, and upgraders.

This cartridge seems to offer little, if anything of practical value over what is already available and has been for a long time. Time and money is much better spent learning to shoot well with you have or can easily obtain rather than searching for a perceived advantage that may not be there.

A higher velocity, a lighter bullet, a little less recoil, and a couple of more rounds in a magazine.... you have to give up something to get there. What you give up may not be worth the tradeoff.

Actually saw one yesterday, and handled it. Not impressed at all. Shield with a slide safety AND a grip safety. Not my cup of tea at all. Price of $529. 4 boxes of ammo in the 30SC. 80 rounds total for $123 + tax.

I’ve been in the game too long to believe in the hype and bravo sierra, just because a company says so. Companies have to come up with new stuff, to keep people a buying. Idc what fluffers or adds you might use, the 30 SC isn’t going to be close to the performance of a 9mm.

Waaaaay back in the 1960’s the Illinois State Police carried 88 grain jsp’s at like 1450+- fps that were rated at +p+ In their 39-2’s. What they found out after buying a gillion rounds of that ammo was, 1) They beat those 39-2’s like a red headed stepchild with those rounds, requiring frequent service by their armorers. 2) The rounds were traveling so fast, and were so poorly constructed that they would disintegrate upon hitting anything solid. 3) Hitting something soft like flesh, the dumped their energy immediately preventing any deeper penetration into vital organs.

So yes, it’s been tried before, a long time ago in 9mm and it didn’t work!

Don’t even get me started about the biker that got shot with their 9mm first Gen “silver tips” from W-W that took 22 solid hits to the torso and was still coming at the troops until he finally bled out! Most of the jackets on the silver tips, like 15 of the 22 rounds shed their jackets in the leather jacket he was wearing. Most of the troopers carried the 39-2 with maybe a spare mag in the cruiser then. After that a uniform issue was double mag pouch ON the belt, not in the car.

Regards,
Rick Gibbs

The 30 Super Carry chamber pressure is greater than 9MM +P+. So I wonder how the recoil could be equal to or less than the 9MM?

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Chamber pressure isn't part of the recoil equation. Bullet weight, powder weight, bullet velocity and gun weight are how it is calculated.

Rosewood