When in LE, I always advocated changing out our carry ammo twice a year. We used to shoot it up during qualifications and then issue new. Due to the ammo shortage and current costs, I have not been doing this with my carry stuff. for instance, I have had the same SB Gold Dot .38's in my M&P 340 and the speed strips for several years!!! I think if would be OK but it does make me nervous! Same deal with the 147gr HST's in all my .9mm carry guns. What do the rest of you do?

My usual rule of thumb is change out every 12 months. Don't always do that; it has always performed normally when shot in practice. I am more concerned about ammo carried in a hot environment, such as a vehicle. Even it has also performed normally when shot up in practice.

I tend to switch out every 6 months by shooting at the range. But these days I make sure I have fresh replacements on the shelf. Doesn't make sense to replace year old ammo in my carry gun with year old ammo from the shelf.

I don't even keep track of it, or worry about it. I have yet to have a cartridge fail to fire due to age.

My semi-auto EDC gets only the chambered hollow-point round fired when I target practice, to avoid re-chambering pushback.
I'll occasionally empty the ammo in the gun's magazine, and wipe off verdigris oxidation from the rounds.

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Slava Ukraini!

Like you Marshal tom I always changed my duty and backup rounds every six months when otj.So as a matter of habit and training about every 6 months I shoot what's in my gun and in my speedloaders or strips 18 rounds total (even though I carry a couple or three of 5 shots in my rotation).I too however have never had a factory round fail no matter how old they may be.

I can't even find my SD ammo at stores. I guess it's fine if you are using sub-par stuff. I use 357 barnes vortex. Anything else just doesn't cut it from a snub

I don't worry about it.

I learned two things from Massad Ayoob when I took his training courses...

1) the powder in the cases will become finer and finer because of the movement when carrying. Because the powder has a finer granularity, it probably will not shoot to the same point of aim as it did before.

2) many people will clean their handguns by spraying WD-40 on it and then wiping it off. Some even spray the cartridges in the weapon. WD-40 will kill primers.

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You are what you learn.

I had a speed loader of .38 WW FBI loads in my glove compartment for years. It gets pretty hot here. I decided to do a science experiment one day and shot this ammo. It worked great so I don't worry about this much. If I carried an autoloader I might worry more.

I tend to change out mine every six months or so. Over the years I’ve gleaned that it seems to be the norm.

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Some Might Say.

Very good food for thought about the powder. At SD distances it probably wouldn't matter about POA vs POI but now I wonder about the burn rate changing due to any retardant coating being scuffed off. I wonder if it might cause pressure spikes?

Imagine a healthy charge of something similar to Blue Dot or H110 burning at a rate like Bullseye.

Here I was thinking "What, me worry?"

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Just Say No - To Social Media

There used to be an FBI requirement that every Bu-car had to have a 50 round box of ammo in the glove compartment. It was an inspection item, so before every inspection some poor sap had to gather everybody’s keys and check, and then initial and date the box.

One year I had a great idea and volunteered to be the poor sap to check the boxes. Then I went to the PFI and told him I was supposed to replace all the car ammo with fresh. He probably knew what was up, but gave me a hand truck and 150 boxes of 9mm and .38 Special.

At that time in my so-called career I was still burdened with a remnant of ethics so I didn’t just keep the new ammo. I swapped it out and waited for a call to return the old stuff, which never came.

Over the years I shot up all that ammo, some of which was dated back 10 years. It had been in cars in blazing heat and frigid cold. It all worked fine.

I generally shoot whatever is in my carry gun if I have more in my range bag. If not, I don’t worry about it.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

We were issued fresh carry ammo annually during my career & I’ve kept to that since retirement, until recently. It’s difficult to find any .38 so my stuff is about two years old. When I cleaned out my locker in ‘97 there was a lot of .38 that’d been there for years & every round fired w/o a problem. Same w/some of the .40 I’d acquired.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I'm just glad you guys were in a position where you had to change out your ammo every year. You didn't need to use your gun while on duty, which kinda means that I didn't do something stupid to give you a reason to shoot me. If you didn't ever have to shoot anybody I'd say you had a good career. Unless you're like that Tackleburry gun nut from the Police Academy movies!

Well, for a while Budweiser had an ad campaign touting the "Born on Date"...

Of course their delivery drivers were already tasked with insuring that retailer stock was within their normal expiration parameters, but it got customers to actually read the dates on the cans... They calls it creating BRAND AWARENESS, grasshopper!

If the ammunition manufacturers were really concerned with anything beside lot numbers, there would be another page of WARNINGs about expiration dates, storage concerns and the like in every box. And the ads: just imagine how the ads would need to be constructed?

The concept of shooting your regular carry ammunition and replacing it with fresh upon a schedule (or even just "occasionally"?) surely makes sense to me... Other than 22s I can only remember a few actual factory DUDS in the last decade, and neither seemed to be anything other than a dud primer. After I took them apart. Both fired normally when the primer was replaced.

Is there an anecdotal disastrous episode or experience out there...? Of course.

Cheers!

Just something to ponder. Think of the pallets of ammo cans sitting outside, in the sun, over in the Middle East for months or years before they get fired. I've been involved in testing weapons systems where we heat soak "items" for hours at 165F, or chill them down to -60F for hours, then make them go "bang" while still hot or cold.

Propellant designed for certain storage parameters gets tested under those conditions.

If those 5.56 rounds work after months in Saudi Arabia, in the sun, on the tarmac, and it still works, our glove box in a sealed vehicle on a hot day is about the same. Why would it be any different?

Forum member Rastoff (who seems to be MIA for a while) made a great suggestion that I follow. When I go to the range, I shoot the top two rounds in my carry magazine(s). I then put that expensive self defense ammo back in my range bag. To go home I load my spare mag in the gun. At home, I empty the carry mag, put two new rounds in the bottom, and load up again.

I shoot monthly so my carry ammo gets changed at least annually. My storage conditions at home are a lot more favorable to preserving ammo than what happens to the ammo I EDC, so even though the newly loaded ammo may be as old as what’s in the gun, the “fresh” ammo contributes to an overall sense of greater confidence.

If I didn’t have a sufficient stock of carry ammo, I wouldn’t worry. Rather than fretting about the ammo aging, I believe cycling the same two top rounds while unloading and loading the gun puts more wear and tear on those rounds, so just rotating self defense ammo in mags can extend service life in the gun quite a bit even without firing.

Revolvers are different, and probably easier on ammo than semi’s. Like others, I have fired ammo that is many decades old without failures. Decent storage conditions and not much movement will usually allow ammo to last decades and still be reliable.

In the previous posts, very little has been said about EXAMINING the ammo you're changing out or loading in your gun. In my home, the guy in the mirror recently loaded 6 R-P 125gr JHPs in his HD for the trip home. At home, he discovered one round with the primer loaded sideways. Oh my. Many years before, he loaded a W-W service round w/o checking in his off-duty gun. The top/front of the rim was cut improperly and the gun would have jammed if needed because the round did not seat properly.

You really got to look...

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

I guess the old FBI issue (1979 MFG) I keep in my Model 60-4 should be replaced, but dadgum! It works so well and looks so mean!
Then there’s the JHP stuff in 32 S&W L in my little transitional 32 I frame snub…it’s only about 20 years old.
Froggie

I've kept the same defensive loads for years. About a year ago I shot my 38 HST that had been loaded for about 3 years. All fired fine.

Check primers for contamination and carry on.

If I were in Law enforcement I would change it out once or twice a year.

No, I don't change out my carry ammo but, Massad Ayoob does make a good point for changing it out.

My carry gun has Remington Golden Sabers that are probably 10 years old. Every once in a while I will shoot one just to see if it goes boom! They have always gone off.

Hey Froggie, .32 S&W Long with JHP? Never heard of this. What planet did you find it on? Please advise. Also, you BETTER keep that 70's LHP ammo! Have it in all my .38 Js.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Georgia Arms used to carry their "factory reloaded" ammo in 32 S&W L and H&R with 100 gr+/- JHPs. I don't know what they have available now, but IIRC, they had some in stock at the last gun show they went to here in VA. I don't know how well (or even if) it expands in use, but it looks like it should.

Froggie

Not handgun related, but, I have several ammo cans of Lake City M-72 National Match 30-06 dated 1959. Still shoots great in my M1. Military ammo is sealed though. For best accuracy, you do need to seat the bullets back .001"-.002" to break the 60+ year old tar seal.

If you're spraying WD40 on your gun it's probably not going to work anyways so don't worry about the ammo.

That's the first I ever heard about powder self destructing. I don't even know how to respond to that. In the military, ammo is shipped all over and is exposed to vibrations beyond imagination. Stored for years and still performs to it's specifications. At the risk of offending Ayoob fans out there, I think that theory is a crock.

There was a thread like this in another forum and I asked if anyone had ever had the old ammo fail after it was changed and then shot. Not one of the people who answered could ever recall a failure with the ammo that was changed and some of it was several years old.

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Why duck?? It's a 9mm!

I’m with you. It would be easiest enough to test but I would put it up there with testing if eating Jello caused a person to shoot low from the prone position.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I took my M&P 340 to the range with me today and shot up my SB Gold Dot 135gr. that had been in my gun and carried in speed strips for several years now. All shot just fine and I think I do feel better having changed them out. This is hard to do given the ammo shortage and prices of replacement!!!

Have you ever had issues with older ammo when you do shoot it?

I just have the EDC rounds in the rotation with the practice ones, going through at least one full magazine of it on a range visit. Have always believed you need to get some practice with more than just the target loads. I would guess the oldest rounds would be 2 or 3 months old.

I generally have 100-150 9mm 147gn XTP rounds, and will reload another 50 when the count gets down to 100, rotating through the three 50 round boxes.

With my home defense guns that don't get carried, I'll let that ammo go for years, because it doesn't get carried. It's fine.

For carry ammo, lately it kinda depends on what I get into. I carry IWB and if I sweat through my cloths heavily, get rained on and soaked, or similar, that ammo comes out right away and new stuff goes in.

Generally I'll unload my carry gun a couple times per week and dry fire with snap caps. The round that's chambered and ejected over and over gets chewed up a bit, and I'll rotate that down into the mag and bring up a fresh one from time to time.

We're coming into shore fishing season soon where I live and the fishing ammo will get cycled out a but more quickly. I'll sweat, get rained on, get splashed, its a more corrosive environment, etc. If you saw where I fish, you'd carry too.

Ammo that gets cycled out goes into a box and then eventually gets shot up on a range day.

I recently fired some 22 lr and 9MM from the 1930's. Unless your ammo was in some very bad environment I think this is a non issue.

I’m with bigwheelzip. When I clean my carry pistols, I put the round that was chambered in a empty 50 round box to fire at the range when I get 10
or so rounds saved up along with my range ammo. There is the concern of bullet pushback but I noticed that on all the chambered rounds removed that there is a ruff spot on the rim. I wouldn’t want a ejection issue.
When I was working they had random pistol inspection. The round that was chambered went to the bottom of the magazine when we reloaded. Our duty ammo was replaced 3 times a year (2 fed and 1 State re-qualification per year).
I also check all new replacement ammo (bullet seat, primer etc.).
My range ammo is the same bullet weight and velocity as my carry ammo.
Some of my carry ammo is 10-15 years old. It always has gone bang.

I'm not an LEO. Therefore, I also do not worry about it. I have never had old ammunition fail at the range - and that's when I change ammunition, when I shoot it up at the range. If I have a defensive gun that hasn't been shot in a long while (and I do - every one of my home defense guns falls into this category - they were fine when I shot them, that's what I needed to know, now go to sleep my pretty friends - one in almost every room!) I simply do not worry about it.

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Come and take it!!

I used to change out my carry ammo once a year and fire it off at the range. 15 rounds for my model 36 and 34 rounds for my 9mm. Hard to realize something so small could cost so much. 5 rounds in the model 36 and doesn't get wet and the 34 rounds in my S&W M&P 2.0 one mag in the gun and second one in my jeans.I inspect them once a month and any that look funky get replaced. So with the two fire arms total is 49rounds. That's like throwing a box away every year. Frank

While WD-40 has been blamed for killing primers any penetrant (which is what WD-40 is) can contaminate a primer if it is sprayed onto it and the primer is not sufficiently sealed. Some ammo is simply sealed better than others, many factories also use a sealant to protect their ammo from contamination. Still not a good idea to spray any type of lube all over a gun or your ammo.

As to the first claim while I respect Ayoobs knowledge of the law and self defense shooting he would seem to be repeating an old myth that has been circulating for years. It most often pops up in reloading forums usually because someone tumbles their loaded ammo to remove sizing lube or simply to make the finished ammo look nicer............... There is much argument, gnashing of teeth and claims thrown around which has caused many to test the theory by tumbling loaded ammo for long (often ridiculously long) periods then examining the powder and comparing it to fresh powder from the can. No one I have ever heard of has been able to show any effect from this and a tumbler will jolt the ammo around far more than riding around in your gun will.

Also consider the vibration ammo is subjected to in transport. If there was such a problem the manufacturers would have known about it long ago and taken steps to limit their own liability if the powder in their ammo was subject to such a failure. And all that is before we get into the subject of really harsh storage and handling conditions such as military ammo gets. And yet this old myth still pops up and people believe it and keep repeating it. Powder is a lot more durable than many people think!

I don't post on here often, rather set back and see what can learn.
30 or 40 years ago we were discussing WD40 "killing" primers.
so I took a dozen empty primed 357 cases and put enough Wd 40 in them so the primer was completely covered. let them set for a month then loaded with 231 powder and 158gr cast bullet. waited until the next day and took them to the range.they a shot fine out of a L frame with a 4inch barrel. we only shot them at 15 yards and compared them to my regular reloads. same point of impact same accuracy. YMMV

1) The powder in the cases will become finer and finer because of the movement when carrying. Because the powder has a finer granularity, it probably will not shoot to the same point of aim as it did before.

Assuming this is true, with the average self-defense event occurring at a distance of only three feet (per FBI), SO WHAT!

The real accuracy issue is, even for supposedly "well trained" Police Officers, is in an actual shooting event most people will not use their guns sights, and they never practice point shooting for these extremely short (any) distances!


2) many people will clean their handguns by spraying WD-40 on it and then wiping it off. Some even spray the cartridges in the weapon. WD-40 will kill primers.

THIS IS TRUE, SO DON'T DO IT!!!!

Not to mention that WD40 will turn to varnish in a short time welding the moving parts of your gun together and making it inoperative. Use a good CLP sparingly to lube your gun and keep the WD40 for your bicycle chain. And unless you are carrying a Japanese machine gun from WW2, there's no good reason to ever put any type of lubricant on your ammo.

Love this forum!

Guess I was lucky. I used WD40 liberally on my firearms for 30 or 40 years and never once had it turn to varnish or make my guns or ammo inoperable. Shotguns, .22 rifles, pistols, revolvers. Never a problem.

I tend to agree with you on the "varnish" claim. Used WD-40 a lot myself and never encountered such an occurrence with any of my guns. I would submit that it is possible under certain conditions as some other oils will tend to "gel" with age. We used to see the occasional guns come into the shop with old, hardened oil in it gumming up the action.

In most such case they were inherited guns that had last been used by an older (now gone) relative and in many cases sat unused for years. I suspect the passage of time had a lot to do with it. The worst case I ever encountered involved selling the guns from an estate. The gentleman who had owned them was a retired engineer who had worked at Wright Pat Air Base. He became enamored with Tri-Flo lubricant at some time. After he retired his health declined and he rarely shot anything, just collected more guns. He was concerned about preserving his guns and slathered them in Tri-Flo, wrapped them in wax paper and stored them away. The guns (@700 of them!) were in perfect shape except they were nearly all inoperable. Actions gummed up tighter than glue. We had to flush them out with solvent to make them function again.

PS: Got several cans of Tri-Flo along with the guns and other stuff that the family wanted sold............. I think it would be good for door hinges or cars. Not so much on guns except, maybe, in small amounts.

So why are we cleaning a loaded handgun? Ok, I understand a wipedown, but why not use a RigRag or spray your "preservative" (FWIW I use Ballistol) onto a cloth and then use that cloth for your wipedown?

The military proper used cosmoline to coat and store guns. I don't think it was as harsh on the weapons, and probably cleaned out better.

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ask questions- then shoot!

Would that be "700 guns and Tri-Flo by the drum"...?

Cosmoline, creosote, wd-40 and Ballistol all have their uses, but only the former & the last would I put on my guns for storage or any other purpose...!

Cheers!

Yes, having been heavily into surplus guns for a while I would agree that cosmoline cleaned up easier than this stuff did. Though cosmiline would hide in every crevice and ooze out when the gun got hot while shooting..... even when you thought you had got it all!

No idea how or why he got so enthused about Tri-Flo. His family said he was an aviation engineer with a couple patents on avionics. He really liked guns though and had the money to buy whatever caught his fancy.

Nope.

I will however inspect for set back with those from auto loaders. In which case, they get replaced. Otherwise, I simply don’t see the point in disposing of perfectly fine ammunition.

When on the job it was every 6 months, but the ammo was on the department’s dime. Now we might do it once a year, after we examine it and check on its condition. Stuff is so expensive, but if there any suspected issues it goes in the range only bucket.

Regards, Rick Gibbs

While working our agency policy was to shoot our duty ammo every 12 months and replace with fresh. As a retiree, I’ve never contemplated changing it, with the exception of the first round in my autos if their COL was shorter than a new round due to setback. All ammo manufacturers occasionally send out a dud or two, but I’ve never heard of a round that didn’t fire at a critical moment due to being carried too much.

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213th FBINA