I am sure the overwhelming majority will say hollow points but here goes… I shoot around 1,000 rounds of S&B FMJ in a given year with around 200-250 of different high end hollow points. I have yet to find a hollow point round that I feel as comfortable with as my S&B FMJ. With the S&B I can consistently hit 3 inch targets at 30+ yards and I am automatic with it defense distances of less than 10 feet. I am trying to find a golden bullet to match the comfort and accuracy of my 158 grain S&B FMJ but have yet to find it. Testing some buffalo bore short barrel low flash low recoil stuff this weekend, but if that fails I’m still on the hunt.

I guess the essential questions are…

1. Is FMJ really that much worse for carry than hollow points?
2. If you do carry hollow points how much and how often do you practice with your hollow point ammo?
3. Does anyone have experience in actual defensive shooting incidents with either type of ammo, good or bad.

Thanks in advance!

To me, accuracy (+/_ an inch at 30+yards) isn't really a consideration in CC. In most instances you won't be shooting anyone 30 yards away or you'll probably find yourself in jail.

You don't mention what caliber you shoot. HP's are a consideration due to expansion (soft tissue damage) and the threat of over penetration from a FMJ.
You must know your gun though. Some semi-auto pistols are finicky with HP's. Also, depending on the bullet type, low velocity rounds may negate the effectiveness of the HP design while, at the same time, reduce the potential for over penetration.

For functional reliability and target penetration (even through bone) it's hard to beat a FMJ. I prefer FMJ FP in 40 S&W and 45 ACP. I carried REMINGTON UMC 40 S&W 180 GRAIN FULL METAL JACKET - L40SW3 on SRT missions the entire time I served on a SRT; it's still my carry round when I carry a 40. I use WINCHESTER RED45 230 GRAIN FMJ FP in my EDC.

In 357 I use American Eagle 158 grain JSP for penetration; in +P 38 Special, I use Remington 158 grain LHP knowing that penetration is limited.

On rare occasions in which I carried while OCONUS contracting, we were only allowed 9mm FMJ - I had zero confidence in the round.

If you can get the threats in a line, you'll probably take out multiple with one shot.


Sent from my motorola one 5G using Tapatalk

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Slava Ukraini!

Hollow points! I carry a S&W M&P 45 acp. I use Remington hollow points. If a dangerous threat happens, I want the perp to go down fast and stay there!

I always use hollow points in my 9mm carry and home defense guns. But judging by the bullet weights you listed I am guessing you are using a 38 Special. With 38 you often have to choose between a round nose bullet that penetrates well but has no expansion or a hollow point that expands but has marginal penetration. Particularly if you are not using +P.

If I was relying on a 38 I would go with a +P hollow point. But the difference in effectiveness is smaller than with calibers that over penetrate with FMJ like 9mm, 40 or 357. If you are comfortable with and trust the S&B I would keep using it.

I practice with FMJ but shoot and replace my carry ammo about once a year. For self defense being able to quickly group shots into an 8 inch group at 10 yards is more important than being able to slowly shoot a 3 inch group at 25 yards. So I don't place as much emphasis on accuracy with self defense guns as many and the difference between my FMJ practice rounds and HP carry rounds is negligible. I worry about accuracy mostly with target/range guns.

I remember reading about statistics from shootings comparing HP and FMJ 9mm and recall the difference was much less than I expected. The statistic I care about much is how often a certain caliber fails to stop an attacker. I want to say the the HP rounds failed about 12% of the time and FMJ failed about 18% of the time but cannot find the page I was looking at and do not trust my memory of those statistics. But even if those numbers are correct I think the difference would be less with standard pressure 38 Special.

Suggest you try shooting IDPA to introduce (simulated) stress into your shooting, with a variety of targets at different distances and a timer running. The large "bullseye", or zero down area of the target takes the emphasis off measuring "groups" and adds emphasis and urgency. Often the first good hit wins a real gunfight.
The power factor required of IPDA stop the practice of using light loads, discourage careful single action revolver shooting, while the scoring encourages drawing quickly and getting good center mass hits. IMHO, gun handling improves considerably.

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Science plus Art

What you want in carry ammo is :
Carry ammo that is 100% reliable in feeding , chambering , fireing and ejection .
Carry ammo you can hit with .
Carry ammo you have confidence that it will function in a bad situation .
Don't loose any sleep if that ammo is not a hollow point.

I can tell you from experience ... you don't want a jam in a fight ...
A hit with a FMJ beats not hitting with a HP .

At close range handgun distances a hollow point will not win or loose the day ... staying in the fight and making solid accurate hits will keep you alive .

Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

The instructor at my range says once you find a defense load that works well in your carry gun you should go out and buy 5'000 rounds of it. Then shoot at least 2'000 rounds to get proficient with shooting that gun / bullet. After that shoot a full magazine once every two weeks to stay proficient.

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2B1ASK1

Having never been in a gunfight I have no personal experience. However, I personally know 22 people who have been shot, not counting suicides, and only 2 have died or suffered any serious injuries. Three were shot with 44 magnums and lived. However, I have been around literally hundreds of big game animals that were shot. Shot several big game animals with 45 ACP'S and 357's and can affirm that there is little reaction when shot. And all those shot with hollow points. Can only imagine what little terminal effect FMJ's would inflict. Spinal and brain hits were the only sure stop them right there that I ever got with a handgun on anything larger than a javlina.

I've never been in a gunfight.

I would have to think accuracy at this range is equal. I suspect I can load a mag of 9mm up with S&B, Tula steel, Federal aluminum, Gold Dot HP, Federal 9BP, Yavex (very hot Turkish 124 fmj), and the gun would group just fine.

The issue is hollowpoint is, have you shot enough of your preferred brand to be comfortable it will feed and not jam?
The issue with fmj is, there's a better chance that it just punches through, risking a person behind the target. And maybe not incapacitating as much due to a smaller clean travel channel.

At the end of the day, the .32acp fmj that runs, is better than the 45 acp jhp that is jammed. That'd be my opinion.

That's a pretty big commitment (financially and time-wise) for your average handgun owner. I'd hazard a guess that only around 5% or less shoot 5000 of any type of round through a handgun in their lifetime.

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Because of the metric system?

Based on the OP mention of 158 and short barrel, I'm thinking they are talking about a snubby revolver. If so all the talk of feeding and reliability is out the window. I know for that answer many folks believe in the full-power wadcutter or a SWC at least, based on the make a bigger hole and soft lead tends to deform and expand theory. I don't think the full round nose have a particularly good track record, particularly the jacketed variety.

Since you say you are trying BB 158 gr Short Barrel Low Recoil I assume you have a snub .357 or .38 S&W Spl. SB formulations use less faster burning powder so out of longer barrels they underperform.

My carry is a SB .357 and I use Gold Dot Short Barrels.

But at Special speeds out of 1 5/8", HPs of "normal weights" won't reliably expand. 85--90 gr do, but you trade away too much weight and penetration IMHO.

Square shoulders do more damage than round noses. So:

.38 S&W Spl full power: 158 gr Keith SWC
.38 S&W Spl reduced power: 148 gr Wadcutter


An attorney told me "NEVER CARRY YOUR OWN HANDLOADS" otherwise heavy slow "pin" loads might be considered, 200--230 gr in .38 S&W Spl.

If I couldn't use a HP in .357 I'd carry the heaviest .357 BB SOFT CAST Keith SWC available.

My $0.02

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My carry, 360 PD, 135gr GDSBs.

Penetration of the FMJ 9mm and 45ACP, in the FBI heavy clothing tests, exceed 28 inches. The .357 JSP comes in at 31 inches. The +.38 spl 125 gr JSP 27.3 inches. The .380 100 gr FMJ 24.9 inches.

I don't have and can't find data on the .38 and .357 FMJ but I am guessing that they will be comparable, and in the 357 much more.

If you go to the lucky gunner lab you will see that even many high end JHP are over penetrating well past the FBI's recommended 18".

Over penetration is a real thing and IMO renders FMJ as a no-go for self defense.

In today's market there are many high quality defensive rounds, in most all calibers, that meet the minimum requirements set by the FBI.

So, the data is there, FMJ NO, hollowpoints yes.

At my home in Phoenix I carry hollow points in my Sig 229. At my home in the Colorado wilderness I carry BB in my 44 mag. What you carry is dependent on the environment you’re in IMO.

OP has 686 in his name. It’s a .357. I’ve read his post before.

Never been in a gunfight, but I try to stay proficient just in case.

I started reloading FMJ for my range ammo about a year and a half ago. I've since switched to reloading JHP for both EDC and practice ammo.

I'm not a bullseye shooter but I can get 1 Minute of Bad-Guy results consistantly.

Let me guess that he just happens to sell that kind of ammunition at his store or shooting range or classes.

It's really hard to find miscreants with that kind of discipline. But most are pretty stupid, so who knows?

Seen a few people who have been shot, never involved myself.

For the most part, your accuracy at 30 yards is irrelevant for defensive shooting which mostly take place at contact to 7 yards.

In a cartridge that has the velocity to expand a hollowpoint, it's the preferred round. There's a darn good reason that law enforcement uses hollowpoints.

I'm not dependent on what ammo you use for my personal safety so it really doesn't matter to me what gun, cartridge, or ammo you use but you're handicapping yourself if you use FMJ or other non-expanding ammo IMO.

Even the US military issues hollow point ammo for 9mm.
It has more effect on bad guys than ball.

With any fmj bullet you will have to watch your background. It is very likely they will go through.

Why do you believe the first sentence?

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Formerly Model520Fan

I'm going to stay out of the weeds on this one.

I carry FMJ. BUT, flat-nose FMJ. Meplat is your friend.

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I've still got it made.

JHP simply because my EDC auto likes them. Nothing to do with ballistics, fighting a war, or lethality.

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John

My truck's LP reflects my choice when I carry a .45...In my carry Smiths it's .38 150 gr. WC's......Ben

Attached Images

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

The cop in Buffalo could have used some penetration. On the other hand if the lunatic's armor had a plate, some will stop caliber .30 M2AP from a rifle. He may have been betrayed by his training. "Shoot center mass and keep shooting until he stops or you run out of ammo."

Maybe the thing to carry is a CZ 52 with hot Bulgarian steel core surplus That might defeat the "soft armor." Or follow the Finn's advice, “Tulta munille!”

The can is open again and the worms are everywhere. Maybe the experts will provide us with some entertaining Jell-O tests and links to pontifical pronouncements beyond any further discussion.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

Only partly true. DOD police have issued hollowpoints since at least the '90s (for sure at Ft. Bliss, White Sands Missile Range, Holoman, Canon, and Kirtland AFBs); military police were allowed HP ammo starting about 10 or 12 years ago.

Standard issue 9mm ball is the M1152, a 115 grain FMJ TC (truncated cone). The M1153 147 grain JHP is a special purpose munition, not general issue.

Indeed it is.

Pin-point accuracy is not a necessary factor for ammunition at reasonable self-defense distances, most will probably never use the sights anyway if a situation ever arises!

Do not choose self-defense ammunition based on how accurate it is, choose based on dependability of function in your firearm and perceived effectiveness on target!!!!!!! Bold for emphasis, not yelling!

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Gunsmithing since 1961

You do what you want, but personally I would never carry FMJ for defense. No expansion, much higher risk of punching through my target and continuing on. Also I've never had a gun that wouldn't shoot some type of HP accurately at self defense distances. Plenty of great 38/357 options to use FMJ. Buffalo Bore makes excellent Keith type soft lead HPs for one...

No one likes to be shot with anything.... never met anyone who volunteered to get shot with a .22 or anything else.

I carry hollow-point ammo in my handguns...... I'm a firm believer in the double tap. Shot placement is more important than caliber or type of ammo!!!

When TEOTWAWKI happens I'll start out with my EDC load..... but at some point I'll have to rely on FMJ ....if I live that long .......

357 magnum is all I shoot.

They carry ball ammo because of the Geneva Convention. All their ammo is FMJ. For me, I don't rely on someone else for what I carry, FBI or the military. My first concern is location. My second is, OH YEA, LOCATION. To date I don't think that there has ever been a person that has been shot that has complained about the bullet he/she has been shot with. Also, the military care more about wounding than killing. Kill one and the rest will come after you. Wound one and at least two will be there to help the wounded person. Not sure if that is still true. I think it depends on the enemy you are dealing with. Radical idiots don't care about their fellow idiots.


Carry what you feel comfortable with but, know the positives/negatives of the ammo you are carrying. If you are shooting at someone in the 30 yard range, you had better be able to articulate why. Some bad guy running away that isn't an immediate threat to you or someone else is a hard justification to come up with.

There is no magic bullet. If you can his a pie plate in the 0-15 yard range, you are good to go. Just sayin.

In the NMSP, the 357 mag Federal 125 grain JHP was our issue round from the late '70s to the early '90s. All of our use of the round againt felons had satisfactory results. It's blasty, bright flash, relatively (for 357) hard-kicking stuff. Still have a box from those days, and likely won't shoot it just for fun; my wife's 357 is loaded with 158 grain SP.

JFK might disagree.....

He would be dead wrong!

Retired lawyer who worked a LOT of criminal appeals here. Caliber is a concern: I carry ball in .380, as I've worked on several shootings in which .380 JHPs failed to adequately penetrate (and I've never seen inadequate penetration with ball - and only one overpenetration, and that was through a guy's calf). I carry 9mm FMJ (super penetrative, for those haven't played with it) when I go hiking in bear country and am concerned they might be out - did it yesterday, in fact. In general, as a lawyer, I'm pretty concerned about overpenetration (I have worked on overpenetration shootings - they happen) and stuff my guns accordingly.

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Now go make God proud...

Do you think 158 grain JHP is ok? I don't shoot 125 grain well but 158 grain shoots similar to my practice ammo.

Yes. My wife's revolver shoots 158 grain JHP or JSP really well; i've killed several coyotes with it and happily carry it on occasion.

Good I have to do more testing but buffalo bore low flash low recoil seems to be the bullet closest to what I practice with so unless I have unexpected problems I will likely go with that.

The next question would be this, should I only practice with my carry ammo or is FMJ fine for practice if it is comparable in shot location in practice?

If point of impact is the same or close out to 10 or 15 yards, I'd use the cheaper stuff for practice.

Why would it be an issue for a revolver?

I EDC a revolver, a 65-3. I've never even considered FMJ.

Now, in an auto, that's another story. I carry JHP in my 4006 when I bring it instead, but it's been thoroughly tested.

Since you brought it up....

In response to Q3 I did use the FBI lead HP .38 to free a hostage from his captor. We were slightly more than arm’s length apart & the bad guy had a butcher knife in the mouth of his hostage in the lobby of a motel. One round from my issued Model 15 and the suspect went down & his hostage was free, unhurt. The round worked & the suspect lived to do a long stretch in prison.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I thought u said u have a truck??? All I see is a Dodge Ram. Lol

Old rule, if going to a gun fight bring a pistol/ revolver that starts with 4 or a rifle that starts with 3.

Nope. It was the Hague Convention.

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I've still got it made.