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  #1  
Old 03-17-2009, 09:59 AM
marine2541 marine2541 is offline
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http://www.mouseguns.com/ammoart.htm

Opinions are like belly buttons, but I found this interesting. Of course, when I go into gun stores, they seldom have any ammunition I'm looking for.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:59 AM
marine2541 marine2541 is offline
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http://www.mouseguns.com/ammoart.htm

Opinions are like belly buttons, but I found this interesting. Of course, when I go into gun stores, they seldom have any ammunition I'm looking for.
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  #3  
Old 03-17-2009, 10:56 AM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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Mixed info there. The advise he gives to use birdshot for home defense from a shotgun is not good.
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Old 03-17-2009, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by flop-shank:
Mixed info there. The advise he gives to use birdshot for home defense from a shotgun is not good.
#2 Birdshot from a 12 or 20 is perfectly fine for across-the-room or down-the-hall self defense. There's hardly any expansion of the pattern at that distance, and it doesn't matter what size the 1.25 to 1.5 ounces of shot is.

I once shot up an abandoned old house that the local FD was fixing to burn down for practice. The effects of #2 birdshot, BB, and #4 buckshot on old-fashioned walls and solid-core and paneled doors was quite impressive.

No flame, JMO and experience.

Noah
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Old 03-17-2009, 02:09 PM
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Fair enough, Noah. No offense taken. Two days ago I shot a coyote with #6 shot (1 5/8 oz. 3" loads, not cheesy ****) at 15 yds. twice, and then twice more as he made tracks with my Ithaca 37 Deerslayer. I did not recover it's body. I'm very leery of smaller shot sizes. I was hoping to shoot woodchucks at closer ranges. I feel terrible.
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  #6  
Old 03-17-2009, 02:58 PM
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It's apparently an old article - things like "Thunderzaps" and IMI ammo aren't commonly seen these days. Now if this was 1993...

It's also strange that the 89-90 FBI studies (which Fackler and other respected folks worked on) are termed "silly" yet there's advice to follow Ed Sanow's advice (the guy who once said that 147 gr ammo wouldn't even reliably cylce the slides of 9mm autos...) and some simply strange statements such as 100rds of +P being able to ruin a lightweight/alloy framed revolver but fiftyish it fine.

There's been a bunch of threads about shotgun load choices lately, including one that linked to gelatin tests.

Try to select heavy for caliber or at least medium weight choices from reputable makers, bonded bullets meant for LE use are often a good choice.
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  #7  
Old 03-17-2009, 05:50 PM
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I couldn't get past the "mediocre Smith and Wesson 1076".
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Old 03-17-2009, 06:54 PM
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Curious about coyote not dropping to 4 shots with #6 shot at close range. Now and then over decades I have shot coyotes at maybe 30 yds with 1,0 oz of #6, #5 or #4 lead shot and had one-shot kills with head-neck or lung shots. These were always tight choked, long barreled guns that pattern about 80% at 40 yards, so lots of pellets hit the critter. Perhaps the Ithica 37 Deerslayer has short, cylinder bored barrel. When I have patterned such barrels with 3,0 inch mag 1 5/8 oz loads I got very wide, thin, patchy patterns, even worse with 1 7/8 oz. Such 20 inch barrels also have about 250 fps less velocity than the 30 inch barrels of my old doubles.

You really don't want to get hit with 1,0 oz tight cluster of #6 or larger birdshot at 1200 fps.

Niklas
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Old 03-17-2009, 07:21 PM
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I guessing the pattern wasn't dense enough. No doubt I killed him, and I could tell I rung his bell. I was planning on shooting at woodchucks at about eight yards or so. I was unprepared for a coyote and had never seen one in the wild before. I would shoot him again because he was a varmint, but I still don't like to make a critter suffer any more than it has to.
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Old 03-18-2009, 12:16 AM
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F/S,
I think those cylinder bore guns loose their pattern at an awesome rate? The smaller the shot, the more "awesomely" they loose it at! An 18" piece of plumbers pipe feels like it's 2 furlongs in length indoors @ close quarters. Outdoors? It feels like a 2 " shooting @ the 100 yard range.
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  #11  
Old 03-18-2009, 12:59 AM
RON in PA RON in PA is offline
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After reading the first paragraph I stopped.
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Old 03-18-2009, 07:08 AM
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I refer back to my comment about the media coverage of the FBI 1076. The ignorance of this author is breathtaking. "Mediocre?" I have never heard that anyone that has ever actually fired a 1076 has come to that conclusion.
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Old 03-18-2009, 10:43 AM
marine2541 marine2541 is offline
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Ron in PA

I re-read the first paragraph. What turned you off so badly that you couldn't continue? I'm just curious.
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Old 03-18-2009, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spotteddog:
F/S,
I think those cylinder bore guns loose their pattern at an awesome rate? The smaller the shot, the more "awesomely" they loose it at! An 18" piece of plumbers pipe feels like it's 2 furlongs in length indoors @ close quarters. Outdoors? It feels like a 2 " shooting @ the 100 yard range.
I think you're right, Spot. my IC 20" 870 has done a damn on racoons at slightly shorter distances with ammo from the same box that I shot the coyote with. I intend to try #4 buck with a flight control-type wad if such a load is available. That should work nicely from that gun, for chucks or coyotes, I would think.
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Old 03-18-2009, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Noah Zark:
Quote:
Originally posted by flop-shank:
Mixed info there. The advise he gives to use birdshot for home defense from a shotgun is not good.
#2 Birdshot from a 12 or 20 is perfectly fine for across-the-room or down-the-hall self defense. There's hardly any expansion of the pattern at that distance, and it doesn't matter what size the 1.25 to 1.5 ounces of shot is.

I once shot up an abandoned old house that the local FD was fixing to burn down for practice. The effects of #2 birdshot, BB, and #4 buckshot on old-fashioned walls and solid-core and paneled doors was quite impressive.

No flame, JMO and experience.

Noah
Sir, no offense, but thugs are not made out of plaster or wood. I have to agree with Mr. flop-shank on this one.

Here's another anecdote. When I was a teen-ager hunting with my dad, he once shot a pheasant at about 10 feet with a 2-3/4" 20 gauge and No. 6 shot. The bird lurched in the air, so we knew he was hit, and he went down. He then ran nearly 200 yards before expiring. When we cleaned the bird, we found the entire shot charge, including the plastic wad/shot cup, about 2 inches inside the bird.

Maybe (probably?) that was a one-in-a-million thing, and pheasants only rarely commit violent crimes, but FWIW, I would not trust any birdshot load to penetrate enough on a human target.

JMHO.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
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Old 03-19-2009, 12:22 AM
RON in PA RON in PA is offline
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What turned me off after reading the first paragraph is the citation to Marshall and Sanow, two rather discredited writers. Ayoob I have more respect for.
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Old 03-19-2009, 01:25 AM
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F/S,
I haven't autopsied every makers #4 Buck? But the Federal plated, with the buffering (coarse plastic powder), printed a tighter circle in mine than the others? In fact, that applied for a 590 (20"), Win. 1300 18" and the Rem. 870 18 1/2", all running a cylinder bore. Compared to some manufacturers loadings (those being unbuffered, without collar, soft non-plated lead) the Federal load mentioned above, will sometimes pattern 15%-30% smaller. FWIW?
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  #18  
Old 03-19-2009, 06:01 AM
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Very out-of-date information.
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Old 03-19-2009, 09:15 AM
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Out of date, certainly. Some good info, some not so. Over-reliance on Marshall and Sanow is no worse than over-reliance on Fackler, in my not-so-humble opinion, and I'd not do either.
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Old 03-19-2009, 10:51 AM
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All one can do is read what is out there and decide for themselves. At the end of the day, the best ammo you chose is what you may use to defend your life.
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Old 03-19-2009, 01:23 PM
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All this concern about ammo is fine. However, one should never forget that really critical factor is where bullet, buckshot, birdshot, slug, whatever, hits the critter, man or beast.

Being a hunter all my life, much of it with rifles (various standard -32-20 and up- cartridges from 1870s-1890s, NOT modern magnums), most with shotguns, some with "wimpy" revolvers. One-shot kills were always the goal and very commonly the result. One-shot kills required proper shot placement, NOT the latest gee whizz cartridge or bullet.

It has often been noted here that most handguns used for self defence are unlikely to instantly stop an attack without proper placement of bullet. Unfortunately, being prey instead of hunter puts a defensive shooter at a major disadvantage as regards accurate shot placement. After shot placement, penetration rules, with more than minimal tissue disruption a poor second.

Niklas
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Old 03-20-2009, 07:02 AM
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I wrote this in another post, but it bears repeating. This is an edited version of an old Evan Marshall article. The author, "Anonymous," adds his opinions to material that has already been published, and doesn't have the courage or honesty to reveal his name. If I'm going to pay attention to someone's intellectual talent, they have to reveal who they are and use their own work. I don't think much of this article and it proves that there is a lot of questionable information on the 'net waiting for someone to grab it.
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ron H.:
Sir, no offense, but thugs are not made out of plaster or wood. I have to agree with Mr. flop-shank on this one.

...I would not trust any birdshot load to penetrate enough on a human target.
Same here. Birdshot way-too-often isn't effective on "large" people, or those wearing heavy clothing. One of our motorcycle officers was shot three times by a hold-up man with #6 shot a number of years ago. The officer was dressed in a leather police jacket with heavy winter-type underwear on under his uniform, and no ballistic vest. The light shot barely penetrated into his skin and was picked out with tweezers later at the ER, after he'd killed his attacker with return fire.

I know of three cases over my long career where light shot did the trick, but both were at muzzle-contact distances. Not to say that I'd ever wanna get shot with it, but jeez, I'd never want to stake my life on it working conclusively in any sort of anti-personnel shooting.

The #4 buckshot, that was so in vogue in the 1980's with the armchair ballistic cognoscenti in a number of large police agencies, was a very shallow penetrator on torso hits when heavy clothing was worn and/or the target was a large male.
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Old 03-21-2009, 02:01 PM
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Most of you know that I'm not, in most cases, a fan of heavy-for-caliber bullets for self defense. I prefer midweight projectiles. On the flipside, I've also said that I would rather have a bullet that's too heavy than too light. Overly heavy bullets don't usually lack in penetration. I feel the same way about shot from a scattergun. If I have any doubt that a shot size is too small to insure adequate penetration, then I'll move up in size until all doubt is removed.
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Old 03-21-2009, 10:25 PM
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Lately the "best ammo" is simply that which you can get a hold of.
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