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  #1  
Old 03-01-2009, 10:20 AM
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Can anyone help me on this question?
What is the difference between 9mm ammo and 9mm Luger ammo? I saw them listed in a catalog and was curious. Thanks alot!
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:20 AM
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Can anyone help me on this question?
What is the difference between 9mm ammo and 9mm Luger ammo? I saw them listed in a catalog and was curious. Thanks alot!
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Old 03-01-2009, 11:05 AM
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9mm Luger is also known as "9x19mm". Most people who casually reference "9mm" probably mean 9x19mm. However there are a number of kinds of 9mm ammo to include: 9x23mm, 9x25mm (actually a necked down 10mm), 9x18mm Makarov, 9mm Browning Long, 9mm Largo, 9x18mm Ultra/Police (not the same as Makarov) and in some places 9x17mm is the name for .380 ACP. That doesn't include the various 9mm rifle calibers offered over the years.

Then there's a debate about whether 9mm Nato spec ammo should properly be considered the same as 9mm Parabellum aka Luger.
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Old 03-01-2009, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GatorFarmer:
Then there's a debate about whether 9mm Nato spec ammo should properly be considered the same as 9mm Parabellum aka Luger.
There is?????? The European pressure limits have always been slightly higher. Since the 9x19mm/Parabellum originated in Europe, just why would going by the original specs result in a change in nomenclature?

Pretty much all the NATO spec did was get all parties to agree to deliver 9mm ammo to the same (european) specifications.
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Old 03-01-2009, 01:03 PM
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They are identical cartridges.
Many cartridges have multiple names.
The 9mm Luger is also called the 9X19mm and 9mm Parabellum.
After World War I, when returning Doughboys brought back Lugers as war souvenirs, American factories began producing ammo in greater numbrers. It had been made before World War I by some American ammunition companies but it was practically a special order item and production was low.

In those early days, at least one catalog referred to it as the 38 Luger!
Today, it's most often called the 9mm, 9mm Luger, 9X19, 9mm Parabellum or 9mm Para.

The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute (SAAMI) establishes the maximum average pressure of ammunition manufactured in America.
SAAMI recommends a standard of 35,000 pounds per square inch (psi) for regular 9mm ammunition.

SAAMI also sets a maximum average pressure for +P 9mm Luger ammunition at 38,500 psi.

Such +P loads will accelerate wear on your pistol if fired frequently.
Some pistols may not be strong enough to handle +P loads, or may require a stronger slide spring to compensate for the increased velocity of the slide; check with your manufacturer whether your pistol is rated safe to fire with +P ammunition.

Also beware of 9mm Luger military ammunition loaded to North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) pressure standards, which are higher than American commercial ammunition.
This ammo will have the NATO symbol of a small circle with crosshairs in it, stamped into the base of the case.

Sources vary on the maximum average pressure for various NATO 9mm cartridges; they range from 37,000 psi up to 42,000 psi.
This is not surprising, considering that various European countries that belong to NATO are making ammunition for their own troops.

Many claim that this "hot" NATO ammo is made for submachine guns, which can handle higher pressures than pistols, but my research indicates that ammunition assembled solely for submachine guns is comparatively rare.

This makes sense when you think about it.
Troops in combat will almost certainly not take the time to discern between "pistol" and "submachine gun" ammunition, so why create ammunition that might blow up their pistols?
Why create two standards of ammunition to track and distribute, requiring great care?
A soldier who damages his sidearm by using submachine gun ammunition in it not only endangers himself, but may be left totally defenseless.

True, some 9mm ammunition has been assembled by various militaries to be used only in submachine guns, but I don't believe it's as common as some believe.
From what I've been able to learn, most countries make their 9mm ammunition suitable for both submachine gun and pistols, though it may be near the upper limit for pistol use.

Commercial American 9mm ammunition (Winchester, Remington, Federal, etc.) that is NOT +P is not as high-pressured as most European commercial ammunition.
Very good ammunition is made by Fiocchi of Italy, Sellier & Bellot of the Czech Republic and DWM of Germany but it's obviously loaded to slightly higher pressures than the SAAMI standard of 35,000 psi.

While the European ammunition may not equal the +P loads of 38,500 psi it is probably near it. Or it may equal or exceeed it. Lacking a laboratory to determine the pressure, I can't say -- nor can anyone else who lacks such sophisticated equipment.
Case condition, velocity, flash and report are not good indicators of pressure.

Until +P ammunition was introduced by SAAMI in 1974, American 9mm Luger had always been loaded to lower pressures than European ammo. This was in deference to the occasional worn out or comparatively weak 9mm pistols that returning American soldiers brought home, or were imported to America.

Interestingly, many German Luger pistols will not function well with American ammunition because American ammunition is loaded to a pressure level below what they were designed to use.
For this reason, the Luger pistol earned a reputation for unreliability that is somewhat unwarranted.
Right after World War II, the American Rifleman magazine made note of this problem and suggested that owners of Lugers clip a few coils off the recoil spring, to make the spring a little weaker and the Luger more reliable with American ammo.
The American Rifleman also noted that, once doing this, it would NOT be a good idea to use European ammunition in the Luger again; such ammo would now be too powerful and batter the gun.

So, should you buy or inherit an old German Luger pistol in the future, you may wish to check the length of the recoil spring. If it's original length, use European ammo for best reliability.
I would NOT suggest using +P 9mm ammo in a Luger; it may be too powerful and batter the gun.

So there you have it, a little background that will help you purchase the proper 9mm Luger ammo for your gun.
I would suggest you purchase commercial, regular-pressure ammo from Winchester, Speer, Remington, Federal or other reputable American firms.
For practice, 115 or 124 gr. full metal jacket works fine, though many indoor ranges will not allow it. If you plan to shoot at an indoor range, find out what they allow then purchase your practice ammo based on that.

For self defense, you'll want a jacketed hollowpoint or softpoint. Few shooters can agree on what's best for defense, and millions of herds of dead horses have been flogged to dust in debate, so I won't get into it here.

But I will say this: Only hits count. The finest bullet in the world is useless if you miss your aggressor. The latest Super-Dooper Turbo ZX 1000 DragonSlayer bullet can never be a substitute for proper bullet placement.

Avoid off-brand, reloaded ammo. While it may not be dangerous, it is often hurriedly assembled and quality suffers, especially if it's loaded with lead bullets.

Getting back to your original question, you will find that many calibers have various names. In Europe, the 7.62X51R is what we Americans call the .30-30 Winchester, and the European 7.62 X 63mm is what we call the .30-06.

Good luck with that 9mm Luger ... 9X19mm ... 9mm Parabellum ... whatever ...
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Old 03-01-2009, 04:04 PM
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A couple of points about the post immediately above.
1. Just because a value is a pressure doesn't automatically mean it's "PSI". I don't have tables present, but until relatively recently, SAAMI pressure figure were in CUP or copper units of pressure. In fact, CUP is still the standard where that was the pressure first established for the cartridge. The piezo guages are calibrated against ammunition that produces acceptable CUP pressures.

2. The European CIL pressures are recorded at the case mouth. SAAMI pressures are recorded about mid cartridge. These differences can produce different pressure readings on identical cartridges regardless of units of pressure.

3. I'm not real sure off the top of my head what units of pressure Europe used in 1902. Since most euro countries had proof houses to test arms, there had to be some standard.

4. The "hot subgun ammo" idea started largely because of the different pressures the euro folks load their ammo at. The velocities produced by longer subgun barrels also boost the image.

Finally, check your owners manual. I don't believe there's a pistol of modern manufacture that cannot safely use SAAMI +P and/or NATO spec ammunition.
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:35 PM
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Thank you very much for the info. I know a great deal more about 9mm ammo than I did before reading the replies to my question.
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:45 PM
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Wow, even I learned a couple of things there. Good information guys.
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Old 10-26-2014, 10:18 PM
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I have some Spanish 9mms luger/parabellium ammo that's pretty hot stuff.
It shoots in my star pistols ok.
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Old 10-26-2014, 11:13 PM
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In general when we talk about 9mm ammo and pistols we're talking about: 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9mmP, 9x19mm, 9mm NATO and 9mm x 19.

9x19mm = 9mm (.355) dia. bullet and a 19mm case length.

There are many other "9mm" cartridges too. 9mm Largo, 9mm Bergman-Bayard. 9mm Makarov (9x18mm using nominal .363 dia. bullets), 9mm Federal (9x19mm Rimmed), 9mm Win Mag, 9mm Short/Kurz/Corto (.380 Auto), 9mm Jap (revolver) and even 9mm Rimfire/Flobert (shotshells for single shot pistols/rifles/cane guns) to name a few.

Note: Some people may think that 9mm NATO is a separate cartridge but it is not. It is just a different loading (like +P and +P+) in the same 9x19mm cartridge.
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Old 10-26-2014, 11:35 PM
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Good read.

Thanks
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Old 10-27-2014, 07:42 AM
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I understand that it was the Stoeger company that trademarked the name "9mm Luger" in America after WWI. Most countries call it the 9mm Parabellum (from the Latin: "Sic pacem, parabellum." "If you want peace, prepare for war."). I saw some results of testing various 9mm Parabellum loads by H.P. White laboratories after WWII. The current Winchester 9mm NATO load sometimes seen in stores is about the same as the German WWI/WWII rounds. The 9mm Parabellum is now 110 years old!
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Old 10-27-2014, 10:07 AM
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Stoger copywrited the name "Luger" as regards to firearms. Up thru the 1970's ammo boxes were semi-commonly marked 9mm Luger.

In the past on various forums I have shown off listing bunches of obscure ctgs with * 9mm * in the designation , but don't feel up to it this morning.

And there ARE some 9x19 pistols currently ( or recently ) that specify no +P ammo. They generally are either high dollar expreme subcompacts , or very inexpensive .
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Old 10-28-2014, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton Boackle View Post
Thank you very much for the info. I know a great deal more about 9mm ammo than I did before reading the replies to my question.
Are you trying to tell us you waited 5.5 years to come back and read the answers to your question and changed your name too? 5.5 years, really???

Welcome back...
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Old 10-29-2014, 02:50 PM
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Hay, give the guy a break..........

he may be a SLOW reader.
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Old 10-29-2014, 03:07 PM
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This is what I love about the forum. I have been shooting for nearly 50 years, handloading for 40 and still learn something new every time I read a post.

I learn more here by accident than most people learn by design.
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Old 10-29-2014, 03:16 PM
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Lol, a zombie thread, but actually still relative and helpful.
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Old 10-29-2014, 03:31 PM
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So funny! I am ever so careful about threads that come from the opening thread summary because there are so many that are several years old but some of them are very enlightening to read, even if a reply is unwarranted. This thread absolutely contained interesting information in a single place that I knew or thought I knew but was happy to re-read.

One statement from me in a ditto to what someone else said - when you hear or read "9mm" in an ammunition discussion you can definitely presume the writer or speaker means 9mm Luger/9mm Parabellum/9 x 19 (I'd say 9mm NATO, too, but there does seem to be some disagreement there). ANY other time someone discusses 9mm he or she will clarify if it is not "standard" 9x19.

It's no different, in a sense, in a discussion in re .45 caliber ammunition. On a Forum like this folks tend to be pretty doggone clear when they mean .45 ACP versus meaning .45 Colt. In a Forum like the Single Action Shooting Society has you're not likely to see .45 ACP mentioned unless the discussion is not about Old West-style revolvers, which would usually mean they were discussing 1911s for Wild Bunch side matches. Clarity sometimes disappears when you don't know what the shooting platform is - when you do then it won't matter.

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