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  #1  
Old 03-30-2009, 10:42 AM
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From time to time I've heard/read the term "flying astray". Before the indoor smoking ban I thought it was literal but now I suspect it refers to a specific caliber and type of ammo! Could anyone please edumicate me on the term? Thanx.
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  #2  
Old 03-30-2009, 10:48 AM
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It usually refers to 200 grain .45 ACP hollowpoints - they look like ashtrays. It was originally loaded by Speer.

Here is an article about the original, and its demise.
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Old 03-30-2009, 11:42 AM
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While sigp220.45 is correct, I have heard the term applied to several .44 & .45 caliber hollow point bullets with large cavities.
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:04 PM
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Muchas Gracias sig220.45! The accompanying article was very interesting, informative and made me think about giving up smoking.
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Old 03-30-2009, 01:25 PM
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I first heard of it in the early 70s in reference to the Super Vel 45 ACP rounds.
They came in 190 gr.
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Old 03-30-2009, 02:49 PM
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+1, sigp220.45.
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Old 03-30-2009, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Erich:
+1, sigp220.45.
+2.....The first time I heard or read it,it was in reference to the speer 45 cal 200 gr JHP.
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Old 03-31-2009, 06:33 AM
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This thread has me wondering; considering the state of modern ballistics, is there any real need for ammo larger than 9mm as far as self-defense is concerned? Or more pointedly, if shot placement is correct why would anyone want to use .45ACP given A) the risk of overpenetration from FMJ hardball and B) the massive potential physical damage that can be inflicted with hollowpoints? Other than shooting through cars or stopping bulls it seems like "overkill" (sorry). That said, I have to admit to really loving my .45's tho.
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Old 03-31-2009, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by photocosmo:
This thread has me wondering; considering the state of modern ballistics, is there any real need for ammo larger than 9mm as far as self-defense is concerned? Or more pointedly, if shot placement is correct why would anyone want to use .45ACP given A) the risk of overpenetration from FMJ hardball and B) the massive potential physical damage that can be inflicted with hollowpoints? Other than shooting through cars or stopping bulls it seems like "overkill" (sorry). That said, I have to admit to really loving my .45's tho.

This is an odd statement, considering that 9mm ball penetrates probably better than .45 hardball. It certainly penetrates until next payday, and that is useful in some applications, as when shooting a big animal.

And you seem to be overestimating the effects of HP loads. I think you may be watching too much TV. Some of what you see and hear about guns is balderdash.

T-Star
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by photocosmo:
This thread has me wondering; considering the state of modern ballistics, is there any real need for ammo larger than 9mm as far as self-defense is concerned? Or more pointedly, if shot placement is correct why would anyone want to use .45ACP given A) the risk of overpenetration from FMJ hardball and B) the massive potential physical damage that can be inflicted with hollowpoints? Other than shooting through cars or stopping bulls it seems like "overkill" (sorry). That said, I have to admit to really loving my .45's tho.
9mm is more likely to over penetrate than .45.
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:46 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Texas Star:
Quote:
This is an odd statement, considering that 9mm ball penetrates probably better than .45 hardball. It certainly penetrates until next payday, and that is useful in some applications, as when shooting a big animal.

And you seem to be overestimating the effects of HP loads. I think you may be watching too much TV. Some of what you see and hear about guns is balderdash. T-Star
Actually I was responding to the above-linked article by Mr. Ayoob where-in a steer's head had exploded popping the eyes out because of the extreme "inner-caranial pressure" caused by an HP round. Does this mean that a 38spl. would be more adequately suited to the PD role? I mean; without over-doing it in caliber size and power? Also, where would .357Sig and .40S&W fall into the mix? (I'm sure this has already been explained ad nauseum within the hallowed halls of this fine forum so please excuse my ignorance!)
Oh! BTW Mom, there is absolutely no doubt that I watch too much T.V.!
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:11 PM
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All handgun rounds that are sufficiently controllable in a carryable handgun are underpowered for stopping "beasts" in the weight range of adult humans. There is no "overdoing it" when the target is trying to kill or rape someone. Handguns are the best self-defense tools because and only because they readily allow one to obey Rule Number One of Gunfighting: Have a gun.

Above posters are correct, i.e., 9x19 ball is more likely to overpenetrate than is .45 ACP ball. I have an autopsy report in my filing cabinet wherein a scumbag of about my height and weight (5'7", 165, muscular) was shot 10 times (justifiably, BTW, so sayeth the Grand Jury) with 9mm ball from ranges between 12 inches and 10 feet. Every round penetrated through and through, including two torso hits that ranged from the region of the clavicle down through the lower abdomen where they exited, reentering and lodging in thigh musculature.
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  #13  
Old 03-31-2009, 12:43 PM
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9mm ball is a penetrating SOB . . .
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
...about my height and weight (5'7", 165, muscular)
WHATEVER!
Well, would an HP round have been more effective in that case?
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  #15  
Old 03-31-2009, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 38-44HD4 Every round penetrated through and through, including two torso hits that ranged from the region of the clavicle down through the lower abdomen where they exited, reentering and lodging in thigh musculature.
And another thing...
Maybe the shots shoulda been placed a little bit higher?
I'm just tryin' to get a workable metric here!
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:22 PM
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Not sure what your problem is cosmo, but you are about to be added to my list of "Ignoreds." Your attitude is unfriendly at best, smartass (not to mention not very educated) at worst. "Workable metric?" Give us all a break. If you want education here, as previously claimed, your approach is not the way to get it.

The shooter peeled the scumbag, who was on probation for aggravated assault at the time, off his buddy by gunfire. When he started shooting, scumbag was on top of buddy on the floor, beating the hell out of him. Shooter was at the head-end of the fray, screaming at the scumbag to get out of his (shooter's) house. Likely, the two clavicle-to-quadriceps shots were the first two fired. Scumbag then stood up, and shooter kept shooting. Shots hit various body parts, including the neck.

Would hollowpoints have helped? Likely so, since they would have been far less likely to overpenetrate, and would have transmitted more energy, maybe requiring less shots fired, but maybe not. Scumbag was double-drunk, too.

Bye.
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  #17  
Old 03-31-2009, 01:57 PM
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There is really ONLY one conclusion that has proven to be an Absolute about "gun shots" and that is No Two of them are ever the same!

And, maybe once photocosmo gets out of "Kiddie Garden" if he ever does maybe he'll understand this like many of the Adults here already do. But, then again some people have an unlimited supply of 'Ignoramus' that they need to use up!!!

He's already made my "Ignore List".
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:04 PM
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Thanks, Mike. I thought for a minute that I was being too harsh. My skin is pretty thick, but when a pup with no experience starts with the "whatevers," well, then some things just have to be said. Unfortunately, "education" from TV and the movies teaches many, many folks utter nonsense about guns and ammunition. Hey, it's gotta be real, right? Saw it with my own eyes!
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  #19  
Old 03-31-2009, 02:13 PM
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Oh oh! Here comes the "beatdown"! While I could argue that your posts have been rude, dismissive, and confrontational (no quotes here, reread your own blather) I guess I'm just not as thin-skined as you guys and I'm probably the most ignored poster on this esteemed forum! I would still like to know... and I'll put this as simply as I can; what is the popular opinion as to the most effective ordinance for personal defense? IN GENERAL!
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:21 PM
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John,
He became too large a hemorrhoid to ignored in the political section. After nearly everyone ran out of patience and turned him into a gray stripe, the activity ceased.
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:55 PM
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Ooooh. I've never used that ignore thing before. I like the way that little grey strip sits among the meaningful posts.
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  #22  
Old 04-01-2009, 05:47 AM
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Something wise forum member MK posted yesterday has made me think (ouch! I hate when that happens). While I certainly don't give a RA what the muscular Texan who thinks I watch too much T.V. and his posse of arrogant know-it-alls think of me and while the feeling must assuredly be mutual I would however like to offer my sincere apology to the many good people on this fine forum who have had to endure my occasional B.S. over the course of my 150 or so posts. You are the salt of the earth and I salute you! Also kudos to the admin. and moderators who work long and hard to make this one of the most informative (and entertaining) gun site on the internet.

Thank You
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by photocosmo:
Something wise forum member MK posted yesterday has made me think (ouch! I hate when that happens). While I certainly don't give a RA what the muscular Texan who thinks I watch too much T.V. and his posse of arrogant know-it-alls think of me and while the feeling must assuredly be mutual I would however like to offer my sincere apology to the many good people on this fine forum who have had to endure my occasional B.S. over the course of my 150 or so posts. You are the salt of the earth and I salute you! Also kudos to the admin. and moderators who work long and hard to make this one of the most informative (and entertaining) gun site on the internet.

Thank You
Well, I for one want to be one of the first to accept your apology.

Folks don't usually take real kindly to "the new kid on the block" coming in with a chip and daring it to be knocked off attitude.

Logic will tell you that the higher velocity of 9mm ammo with less cross-sectional area is going to have less "drag" as it goes through any material, even human flesh. That is why the opinion is that 45ACP ball will penetrate less than 9mm ball.

Just a word to the wise too by the way. Don't try to force your way into a place of respect. That will come with time and posts if your information is credible and demeanor correct. Taking on folks that have thousands, and tens of thousands combined, posts isn't going to get you to the head of that line.

Remember, that's just a word to the wise.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:06 AM
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photocosmo,

Some of your remarks were a bit out of line but I also thought the comment that you watched too much TV was also out of line.It seemed to be afterwards that the digs and jabs increased.

I do find it interesting that several new posters who are also obviously young have done FAR WORSE and no one said anything.

In every group there is a certain amount of CRONYISM that I find disturbing.It's found on internet forums too.It reminds me of a mob mentality and it also reminds me of sharks circling when they smell blood.Once one insulted you,several joined in.That reveals a great deal about someone's character.

You are not on my "ignore list" and as long as you ask something respectfully,I will try to respond respectfully.
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Old 04-02-2009, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spotteddog:
John,
He became too large a hemorrhoid to ignored in the political section. After nearly everyone ran out of patience and turned him into a gray stripe, the activity ceased.
Ignore button = Preparation-H
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  #26  
Old 04-03-2009, 05:33 AM
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Although the original "flying Ashtray" was discontinued, wish they would bring it back. Still have 2 350 count bonus packs of em. The gilded jacket and cannelure make for an accuarate and versaltile bullet. Just loaded up some for 45 AR, and also use em in 45 LC.

They were problematic feeders in some older semi's.
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Old 04-03-2009, 06:13 AM
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That's right, zeke: they always were sort of the "acid test" for semiautos "back in the day."
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Old 04-03-2009, 04:17 PM
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I guess I was sort of wondering if a 9mm HP would be a better choice (all things being equal) than a .45 FMJ or HP? Really.

coz
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Old 04-03-2009, 07:26 PM
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Tastes great/less-filling.
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Old 04-04-2009, 12:47 AM
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I've got a few 200 grain Gold Dots at home, and their profile seems to be very close to that of the "flying ashtray." They sure have a very large hollowpoint to them.

Might be worth it to look at them. I'm happy with the 230s, though.
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Old 04-04-2009, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vanilla Gorilla: I've got a few 200 grain Gold Dots at home, and their profile seems to be very close to that of the "flying ashtray." They sure have a very large hollowpoint to them. Might be worth it to look at them. I'm happy with the 230s, though.
Since Speer stopped making the original 200grainer I guess I'm going to have to give some of the Gold Dots a try. I haven't checked my personal 'stock' on the older style bullet but I "hope" I've got enough to last a while. I always did like/love that old Flying Ashtray in my .45ACPs and my .45 Colts.
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Old 04-04-2009, 07:23 AM
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Sentimentally, I am very fond of the old flying ashtray as it takes me back and reminds me of the old days! However, the current crop of 45 ACP ammo, especially the LE ammo, is far more reliable and effective. Even if you can't get the Ranger T or HST, the 230 Gold Dot (available to everyone) is excellent and, last I heard, the FBI still issues the same 230 Golden Saber that you can buy in your local store (sigp220.45 please correct me if I am wrong, as I know you guys were/are planning on going to the Ranger Bonded in some if not all calibers).
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Old 04-04-2009, 08:01 AM
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SWAT Lt - I'm still carrying the Golden Saber .45 in my Sig. The issue .40 changed from the 165 grain Gold Dot to a Winchester 180 grain bonded round, but I haven't been issued any yet for my Glock 27. We got a new guy in the office who was issued the 180 at Quantico, but I'm in an Indian Country office at the end of the supply chain and get all the new stuff last.
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Old 04-05-2009, 06:26 AM
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The guys I work with have the new bonded .40s, but still have the GS .45s and GD (I believe) 9s.
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Old 04-05-2009, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by photocosmo
I was sort of wondering if a 9mm HP would be a better choice than a .45 FMJ or HP? Really.
coz
Obviously a matter of individual opinion that has been discussed here and elsewhere often and loudly.
Here's my opinion for what it's worth.
Self-defense: .40 S&W, .357 Mag, .45 ACP [TIED]
Larger animals: .45 Colt, .44 Mag, .41 Mag [TIED]
Small game: .32 H&R, .38 Spl, .44 Spl [TIED]
Plenty of room to quibble.
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Old 04-05-2009, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by photocosmo:
I guess I was sort of wondering if a 9mm HP would be a better choice (all things being equal) than a .45 FMJ or HP? Really.

coz
IMO no. Shot placement is a wonderful thing but at pistol speeds tests on flesh and bone animals have shown that projectiles under 200gr. tend to ricochet when they hit bone. So a well placed shot with a 9mm may go off in a non vital direction. That being said if you don't shoot big calibers well or you tend to not carry the big guns for comfort reasons then by all means get a 9mm or .38 if it means that you will have it with you instead of leaving it at home.

To answer one of your other questions IMO and some may agree, the most effective thing for personal defense would be a 12 gauge with whatever buckshot you want to feed it.

I am also of the opinion that one can never have too much gun or too much ammo as long as you can handle it, there is no such thing as overkill when your life is on the line.
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Old 04-09-2009, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by SWAT Lt.:
Sentimentally, I am very fond of the old flying ashtray as it takes me back and reminds me of the old days! However, the current crop of 45 ACP ammo, especially the LE ammo, is far more reliable and effective. Even if you can't get the Ranger T or HST, the 230 Gold Dot (available to everyone) is excellent and, last I heard, the FBI still issues the same 230 Golden Saber that you can buy in your local store (sigp220.45 please correct me if I am wrong, as I know you guys were/are planning on going to the Ranger Bonded in some if not all calibers).
It is available to everyone. In fact I saw it for sale all over at the last show.
Having "LE" marked on the box makes it no different than that not marked. I still see people trying to off load it as if it is some premium, super special, one shot wonder bullet due to the box markings. The reality is..... steady yourself. It's the same exact ammo!
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:41 PM
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Dillon sells a Speer 200 gr. HP bullet that is NOT a Gold Dot. Does anybody know if this is the Flying Ashtray or not?

These bullets really rise to the occasion in the 625, and mine feeds them flawlessly! A few years ago I shot a whitetail through the head with one of these at about 15 yards and 1150 FPS and the bullet went completely through and showed no signs of expansion. That's really all I expected it to do, big hole in and big hole out. I still have some of these left, but nowadays if any bullet has a jacket I'd prefer a bonded core, like the Gold Dot. Otherwise, I'd just use a 255 gr. SWC. The 625 feeds them flawlessly too!

Dave Sinko
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Old 04-10-2009, 05:35 PM
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Yes, szuppo, anyone can get the LE marked ammo, sometimes it comes at greatly inflated prices though. The fact is, rightly or wrongly, some of the newer LE designated ammo has had the most R&D devoted to it and, although any handgun bullet is a poor stopper, is usually some of the most effective available. Some of the LE ammo is available to the civilian market and is the same ammo packaged under a different name. Some of it is still designated for LE only (i.e. Ranger T Series) and is not intended for the civilian market (although it can be had).

That said, I'd go with whatever was cheaper and more plentiful as the difference isn't that great, and tactics and shot placement are far more important that what caliber gun you carry or what ammo you put in it. I'd be fine with Gold Dot or Golden Saber if is was more cost effective and reliable in my weapon.
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Old 04-10-2009, 10:17 PM
GatorFarmer GatorFarmer is offline
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9mm v. .45 used to be a gun magazine staple in the 80's. Filled a lot of pages and killed a lot of trees. The the .40 SW came out and offered a compromise. Some people didn't like it for various reasons, or still wanted light and vast, thus there have been other compromise and idea calibers over the years - .45 GAP and .357 Sig come to mind.

FWIW, the guys that I knew in college from the rough parts of Detroit (the war zone parts) were the earliest adherents to the .40SW that I can recall meeting and several had a penchant for .357 snubs. For the mid 90s... probably solid choices.

Is a 9mm JHP as effective or more so than .45 FMJ? I don't know. It depends. Do you trust the results in gelatin that we see with JHPs to necessarily come to pass in a human? What do you plan to shoot through? What does your gun work best with? What can you control? How much penetration do you want?

I load my .45s with FMJs. I want 18" or so of penetration. That was the original IWBA standard and I think that they might have been onto something with it. But what do I know, I dropped out of law school and not medical.

My go to 9mm hedges bets. It's a Glock 34 that I just picked up. Gets a bit more velocity from the longer tube, a bit easier to hit with, and holds quite a few rounds. Anything and everything that you can carry - even things like a FAL is bet hedging. Humans are like cockroaches, they can be surprisingly hard to put down or kill when they make their minds up to be so.

There's a certain distrust of JHP among many of the older forum members. I'm not that old, but believe people like Erich and Dr. Vail who claim to have experience with even premium JHPs being cut out of people that didn't do what they were supposed to. I don't know that I believe in energy transfer as a major wounding mechanism (at handgun velocity/energy levels) either. Newtonian physics and all that. What does make sense to me, and always has, is that a big/heavier thing hitting another thing and poking a hole that goes deep does damage. That I can wrap my mind around.

Stick around a bit and you'll find that most guys are keeping (according to preference) a rifle or shotgun handy at home. Those who are particularly serious minded meanwhile (and who's situation allows it) tend to carry relatively large and "powerful" (a relative term with handguns certainly) firearms. Flopshank and the MIA Wyatt Earp are both know to tote big bore N frames (and BUGs) as an example. Some guys carry three guns. Do what works for you and what you're comfortable with. Guess wrong on the extra gear side and you shed some sweat. Guess wrong on the not enough side, you die. Shrug.

I'm not a cop, not a doctor, and not a soldier. I was a simple slumlord who spent formative years collecting rents in crack zone zipcodes (to steal a summation from Spotteddog I think it was). The jewelers, PIs, and other "everyman in a rough 'hood" types I've known and talked to had differing opinions, as did the cops, soldiers, and real and imagined special warfare types. I broke it down thus:
multiple guns that I know work, can hit with, and can get to, and wear a vest. Caliber? Eh. Meet those other criteria, do it daily and make sure you can live with it.
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:28 PM
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NIce reply, GF.

I think the 9mm vs .45 ACP debate will likely be raging after all of us have shuffled off this mortal coil.

You're gonna find proponents and oponents of each; pick one and practice.

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Old 04-11-2009, 05:10 AM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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I'm a big believer in looking at what some of the most street proven handgun loads (examples: Speer 9mm +P 124 gr. Gold Dot, Win 9mm 127 gr. +P+, the FBI load, Rem. .357 125 gr. SJHP/R357M1)do in gelatin, or Perma-Gel, then finding loads that duplicate, or even exceed, those loads in similar testing (no not water jugs, gel or P-G with and without heavy clothing). That's what I did with my .44 mag. JHP handload. It passed the gel with flying colors, and gel blocks. When I took it to flesh, blood and bone by shooting a couple woodchucks the performance exceeded my expectations. In calibers capable of it, I prefer high energy, expantion and even fragmentation, while never ignoring the principal of adequate penetration. The best ammo is a balancing act of bullet weight/design and velocity/energy. They must work in harmony. If they don't, it doesn't matter if the gun is a 9mm or a .45. Performance will be suboptimal. The best loads in full power service calibers will all do the job quite well because they have "harmony".
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Old 04-11-2009, 06:55 AM
SWAT Lt. SWAT Lt. is offline
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I totally agree, the 9mm vs. .45 has been, and will be, debated as long as people have guns or remember what guns were. Now you can add .40 S&W, 45 GAP, and 357 SIG to the debate. The truth is, they all will work and they all may fail. Tactics, training, mindset, and shot placement are all far more critical factors in prevailing in a fight than what gun, caliber or bullet you are carrying. In the end, caliber and bullet are only a very small part of the equation. Pick a gun in a decent caliber you can control well, make sure it is reliable, then work on the really important things.

I presently carry .40 caliber weapons. The platform works reliably and the ammo works well. I've seen the results in gelatin and of several OISs (the bullets I saw from the former looked very much like the ones from the latter. I've heard that from guys in other agencies as well). When I retire, Good Lord willing, I intend to switch to 9mms. I won't give the matter a second thought.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:12 PM
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so back to the original question, I think....the 200 gr 45 was called a flying ashtray as it had a HUGE cavern in the end and many companys made them. It is a generic term for a big ole HP 45 and kinda looked like you could use it for an ashtray.

They were very popular before much was known about controlled expansion bullets and how bullet shock trauma actually worked on a body. Everyone thought in unison with, "Bigger hole lets out more hydraulic fluid faster and their motor stops quicker!" Not a bad theory really.

Only real problem was getting them to feed in the 1911's and the few commercial 45 out. I carried a 4506 and it fed them fine. Was a hoot to shoot them at a gallon of water and the bad guys could always see them in the barrel so good effect all around.

Anyone remember Blamo-ammo? They used the 200gr hp in a relatively hot load and filled the cavern with what looked like firecracker powder and a large pistol primer glued in backwards. I think I have some somewhere I will post a pic if anyone is interested and I can find it.

I currently carry a Glock 27 and/or 22 with the 357 barrel in it as it is damn close to performance of a 357 mag (used to be the #1 one shot stopper according to the FBI), very high capacity and recoil similar to a 9mm. I also carry a S&W 642 with laser in 38spl. I was involved in a shooting 3 years ago with the 357 sig and the damage that round caused was UNREAL!!!

I was rammed by a toyota 4 runner that I was following after I walked in on a robbery. It was stolen by a 16yr old work camp j escapee and his 14 yr old girlfriend. Firing left handed out the window of an F250 at a moving vehicle, I connected 7 of 8 rounds (not too bad if I do say so myself.) The 115 gr speer hp that Corbon had loaded went through the tailgate, then the back seat, the left side of the passenger seat and continued on to take a chunk the size of my fist out of her left side above her hip, looked like a pile of hamburger. Over penetrate? Maybe just a tad...BUT DADDY LIKE THE NASTY BULLET!!! Their truck, not so much. Have a great video from the local news too.

I have shot two others with 40 S&W 180 ranger SXT/Black Talon. No over penetration, rounds worked flawless in crook #1, all three opened as expected (one in abdomen above belly button, two ten ringers), dropping him like a rock. Crook #2 caught one round in his upper arm as he turned and it went through and stuck in the wall, plugged with tissue, didn't open weird looking ball ammo to say the least. Round two was through his forearm and then entered his abdomen above his belt on the left side. It did a beautiful J pattern/track and lodged in his right clavicle, unopened. Third round was the money shot as it went through his left elbow and then rib cage as he fell sideways shredding left lung and most of his heart, eventually coming to rest in the skin by his jaw/ear. Bloody mess, but it opened perfectly and was laying on the floor in perfect floral pattern for all to see. So 40S&W works well too.

I have little experience with 45 but know several officers who have had good luck, some with bad ammo (Fed Hydrashocks) that balled up, but a big slow heavy bullet makes a big hole that lets the hydraulic fluid out quickly.

38's, Well, more people have been shot with that caliber (mostly due to the NYPD before the days of the Glock 17) than almost all the others combined...go figure.

Cosmo...if you are still there, all will work. Some better than others. The best thing is to spend time listening and reading posts here. Ask questions, go do on line research with places like the CDC (Center for disease control) on ballistics and wounds from gunshots. Know that most gun fights last 2-3 seconds and 2-5 rounds. Not exactly what you see on TV. These guys know their stuff listen to what they offer and just like buying a car, take everything with a grain of salt as it is their favorite and experiences....it may not work for you, or it may be spot on...Confussed now? Sorry...

John
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:08 PM
38-44HD45 38-44HD45 is offline
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Never heard the term used to designate anything other than the old Speer 200gr. JHP, the nose cavity of which was substantially larger than that on the current 200gr. Gold Dots. However, in the water expansion tests I've done, the Gold Dot opens up as much or more than the old F.A., and in trying it in about 20 different 1911-types, I've never found one in which the Gold Dot would not feed. Not so with the F.A., as noted by others. The original design has not been made for a number of years, and no one ever made it but Speer.

Dave, are you sure that the 200gr. JHPs Dillon has are not Gold Dots? The only 200gr. .451 JHP currently in Speer's catalog is the Gold Dot. Look on your Speer bullet boxes. If the "Part number" is 4478, that's a Gold Dot. Just because you don't see the gold dot when it opens up does not mean it isn't a Gold Dot; it just means it hasn't fully opened up.
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 38-44HD45: ...If the "Part number" is 4478, that's a Gold Dot...
I'm with you the original Speer 200gr bullets were the original "Flying Ashtray" design and carried the Speer #4477. It does have to be pushed a bit and could be made to open up pretty well in the .45ACP but really comes to life in the .45 Colt which is where I use it. I recently picked up a .45 Colt "Mountain Gun" Smith & Wesson, Model 625-6 and I'm looking forward to putting a few of these through it.
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Old 04-14-2009, 06:04 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by 38-44HD45:
However, in the water expansion tests I've done, the Gold Dot opens up as much or more than the old F.A., and in trying it in about 20 different 1911-types, I've never found one in which the Gold Dot would not feed. Not so with the F.A., as noted by others.
Very interesting post, 38/44. In his last book, IIRC, Marshall says that CCI/Speer's engineers have learned to control the expansion characteristics of the Gold Dot bullet by varying the thickness of the plated on jacket. I'll guess they shrunk the hole then the jacket thickness to maintain, or improve, expansion reliability, while improving cartridge feed.
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Old 04-14-2009, 07:13 PM
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I agree 38-44HD45 & KKG, "flying ashtray" was definitely the nickname given specifically to the old Speer 200 grain 45 ACP load.

yellowf4, I am unaware of any one shot stop statistics ever being kept by the FBI. Could you direct me to where I may find such information or documents? I'd like to see what they have to say on the subject. I'd also be interested in reading anything you can recommend on bullet shock trauma as well.

You have shot more bad guys than most of the cops and federal agents I know. Are you in law enforcement? If I may ask, how do you know the performance of your projectiles, other than the floral patterned one you saw lying on the floor, in the bad guys? Did you see them after they were removed, go to the autopsies, or talk with the MEs? At any rate, it sure sounds like your rounds were devastating on target. I didn't know handgun rounds were capable of shredding organs like that! I also didn't know the NYPD authorized the G-17; I thought it was only the G-19 in the Glock.

You learn new things everyday, that is why I enjoy reading internet forums. I agree with you, you have to take it all with a grain of salt.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:39 AM
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Sounds like you totally pwnd that guy in the 4Runner, yellowf4.



It's amazing how realistic video games are nowadays, huh?
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Old 04-15-2009, 01:36 PM
38-44HD45 38-44HD45 is offline
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Came close to using my Ignore button again yesterday, but it's just too entertaining, for now, anyway...
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