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  #1  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:43 AM
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I had my kel-tec p11 loaded with federal hydra shock 147 grain. Shot reliably beu low. Then i read an artiecel that stated 147 grain is the worst possible ammo for a 9mm, So I reloaded my gun with 115 grain fmj. Now I read an article that stated the 147 grain is a man stopper!!!!
What gives????
is it a good choice or a bad choice ?
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:43 AM
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I had my kel-tec p11 loaded with federal hydra shock 147 grain. Shot reliably beu low. Then i read an artiecel that stated 147 grain is the worst possible ammo for a 9mm, So I reloaded my gun with 115 grain fmj. Now I read an article that stated the 147 grain is a man stopper!!!!
What gives????
is it a good choice or a bad choice ?
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  #3  
Old 04-20-2009, 11:41 AM
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I split the difference by carrying Speer 124gn Gold Dots in my Keltec P11.
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Old 04-20-2009, 11:59 AM
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The majority of PDs that issued the 147 reported a vast majority of "one shot stops", of course thats provided the shooter does his job. San Diego PD used the 147 for years and were extremely pleased with it. I carry the new Winchester PDX1 in 147 in all my 9mms. Years ago the thought was that since it is a "subsonic" round it wasn't worth the room it took up but that theory was proven wrong.
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:13 PM
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The 9mm Luger was originally designed for 124gr bullets.
Bullets in 115gr give slightly higher energy.
Bullets in 147gr are at the limit of bullet size due to the small case.
Good ammunition is available in all three weights. But compared to a rifle, they're all puny.

If you are looking for the "magic bullet" or the "one shot stop guarantee" you're wasting your time. There is no such thing.

Bullet placement is the most important element, but multiple shots may still be required with good bullet placement. Practice, practice.
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:54 PM
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Sounds like they've reinvented the wheel. A 147gn, .355 diameter bullet at 850-950 fps is a real stopper. My 158gn, .358 bullets at the same speed shoudl be even better then . I'd bet I could get my 148 DEWC to go that speed as well for a closer comparison.
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Old 04-20-2009, 01:55 PM
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A hollow point that doesn't expand may not do as well as a wadcutter. Nor is a dead soft lead bullet of a similar diameter and weight as a jacketed one, such as autoloaders require, an apples to apples comparison.

I prefer midweight, or slightly lighter, bullets in most calibers. While today's better 147 gr. loads work well, I think they weigh too much to be optimal for the 9mm cartridge. I would only use 147s if they shoot to point of aim, and lighter bullets don't, or the gun is more accurate and/or reliable with them.
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:30 PM
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I carry 147-gr JHPs in my GLOCK34 which chrono at 1100-fps. With my pistols 5.32" barrel I have a decided velocity advantage compared to if I owned a 9mm compact or subcompact. The G34 is actually a "sometimes" CCW and "all the time" truck gun.

From the shorter pistols I prefer 124-gr JHPs.
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:51 PM
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If you can hit what you are aimin' at, it's not going to make a lot of difference to the one who gets shot. They will all work...
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:38 PM
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The 147 grn. 9mm load basically duplicates the old 158 grn. LRN loads in the .38 Special. The difference is that the 9mm semi auto provides more firepower than the old .38 Special revolvers.
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:21 PM
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wow..........thanks for all the great advice..
will go with what shoots point of aim, regardless of bullet weight........
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
The 147 grn. 9mm load basically duplicates the old 158 grn. LRN loads in the .38 Special.
Really? Is there a 147-gr bullet that doesn't replicate a LRN, or are they all that way?

Does velocity make a difference?

My home state is ranked in the top five in the nation for obesity. If you don't live where this is a widespread problem, you have no idea how huge some of the people are around here. Add to that, as a general population, we are larger boned and taller and heavier in mass than were Americans before the mid-80s.

Don't believe me? Find a 1970 high school yearbook and look thru it. Look at the front linemen in the football team photo. Or look at the photos of undergrads in any college annual from 1950-1980. It will astonish you how small they seem.

The point I am trying to make is that I want the penetration 147-gr bullets afford me. But again, I am throwing them faster than what compact 9mms are capable of.
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:44 PM
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I kinda like the 147 grain Cor Bons.

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Old 04-20-2009, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Really? Is there a 147-gr bullet that doesn't replicate a LRN, or are they all that way?
The point I was making is that the two loads are very similar from the standpoint of velocity and bullet weight. Of course, bullet design makes a big difference in either cartridge. Given similar bullets there isn't much difference in the performance - or at least that is my experience.
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Old 04-20-2009, 06:08 PM
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Thank you for your reply.
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Old 04-20-2009, 06:57 PM
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I came down on it where N4Z did. Basically what's been created is a jacketed, rimless, .38 Special FBI load. Except that instead of carrying 5 or 6, it holds at a minimum twice that even in a compact. If trends away from flea weight bullets @ the speed of light hold, and bullet technology remains at center stage things will only get better. Hell! Their pretty good right now!
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spotteddog:
I came down on it where N4Z did. Basically what's been created is a jacketed, rimless, .38 Special FBI load. Except that instead of carrying 5 or 6, it holds at a minimum twice that even in a compact.
So that would be a good thing, or a bad thing?
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:31 PM
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Well,
I won't say either good or bad.
Just 5 more of whatever you already think it is?
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Old 04-20-2009, 09:20 PM
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Our current issue 9mm ammo is Speer GDHP 147gr. Shoots very well in all the guns I've tried it and it's been found to be very effective.

An excellent article about picking self-defense ammo. It's not just bullet weight or bullet velocity, but a combination of all the above. Sometimes the light fast bullets expand too much and don't penetrate. Sometimes the opposite is true. Regardless, ditch the Hydra-Shoks...they were good in their day, but are nowhere near the better, newer rounds. By coincidence, both our current .40 and 9mm are on this gentleman's list as being good choices:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/S...e_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
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  #20  
Old 04-20-2009, 09:45 PM
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9mm was designed around the 124 gn bullet. 115 gn was developed to give more velocity and energy. The 147 gn load was developed as a subsonic round optimized for use in suppressed submachine-guns. After the SEALs started using it in their MP5s and Berettas it's popularity exploded on the LE scene, largely as a result of the inferred SF endorsement.

/c
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:09 AM
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wow...look what i started....
Anyway, I going back to loading my kel tec with the 147 grain federal Law enforcement...
But base on all the advice and links I have read.

The winner will be the.........
Speer 9MM LUGER +P GDHP-SB Gold Dot 124 grain SB (short barrel Load)

Anyone have a box they want to sell...
E mail me at Tanneroo@catskill.net.

thanks
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  #22  
Old 04-21-2009, 10:19 AM
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Not a fan of the 147gr bullets. I like the 115 and 124 gr bullets.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:24 AM
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Lots of good discussion here, and I think the answer is at best situational. I like the 147 grain load but my Kahr PM9 sometimes has trouble with a fully topped off magazine. I changed my magazine springs and this solved the problem. I switched to those incredible Wolff +5 springs and my feeding problem was fixed. I've also notice my Kel-Tec Sub-2000 really likes the 147 grain loads as does my Beretta 92FS.

So as to whether it's a good or bad idea I think it first depends on how your gun handles these rounds. My personal feeling is that the 147 grain load is best left to the longer barreled firearms. Heavy emphasis on "person opinion" here. I think with a 9 mm bullet that heavy you need to give it every chance to build up the velocity it needs to ensure expansion at the receiving end. It looks to me like a barrel length greater than 4" would be better for this round. Hence, for your specific gun, a recommendation to split the difference and use the 124 grain loads is probably good advice. Of coarse we could all be looking for the next decimal place in performance. LOL
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:47 AM
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My carry ammo for my CZ 75B is
Double Tap 147 Gr. Speer Gold Dot @ 1,135 FPS very accurate. I like the Federal
AMerican Eagle 147 gr. FP-FMJ for range
practice.

Randall
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  #25  
Old 04-21-2009, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by zippo:

Anyone have a box they want to sell...
E mail me at Tanneroo@catskill.net.

thanks
That is a strong point this day and age. Sometimes what we carry is regulated by what is available as much as what we think will work best.
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  #26  
Old 04-21-2009, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by walnutred:
That is a strong point this day and age. Sometimes what we carry is regulated by what is available as much as what we think will work best.
Availability, the poor QC that seems to pervade the ammunition industry, and the ridiculous price of premium defensive ammo finally pushed me off the fence regarding carrying handloads. One can stock the makings of far more, better quality ammo for the same price and assemble as needed. A couple months ago I put together 87 Speer 90 gr. .380 Gold Dot clones, and it cost nowhere near 87 bucks. As components become available again, I'll probably buy the makings for 1000 rds. and be set for many years. Those 87 rounds should last me about five years.
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by animalmother:
Not a fan of the 147gr bullets. I like the 115 and 124 gr bullets.
Same here, although the latest generation of 147gr. Gold Dots, especially as loaded by Double Tap, would be worthy of consideration, especially in longer barrels. I still like 127gr.+P+ and 124 gr.+P the best.
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  #28  
Old 04-21-2009, 03:36 PM
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Your gun must function 100% with whatever you choose. I personally prefer the 124+P in either Ranger T or Gold Dot. The 147s are good in the HST and Ranger T loadings and I'd carry them without reservation. Probably the Gold Dot too, but I haven't had any exposure to them. I don't use 115s anymore and the only 115 I would now even consider would be Cor-Bon's DPX.

The newer 147jhps, and basically all newer service auto pistol rounds, have had a ton of R&D devoted to them where the revolver rounds (i.e. the old FBI .38 load) haven't. They may appear ballistically similar on paper but, IMO, the 147s listed above surpass the FBI load's performance. On top of that, you get 2-3x the capacity in an easier to shoot, quicker to reload weapon platform. Nothing against the FBI load, it's still one of my favorite .38s.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:22 PM
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+1 with SWAT Lt.; while the velocity and bullet weights may be similar between the old 38 spl round nose load and the 147 grn 9mm hollow point, its the bullet that makes the difference. Given the same sectional density (indicative penetration)I'd take the modern 147 grn hollow point any day. The prospect of a load that BOTH penetrates and expands is a WIN/WIN in my book.

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  #30  
Old 04-21-2009, 06:59 PM
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I personally would not want to run a lot of +P ammunition through a Kel Tec 9mm. Yes, I'm sure other people have, and if you had a pocket Glock sure, but the Kel Tec products aren't exactly the sturdiest products made. (And yes, I did used to own a P-11, had a P32 and my wife has a P3AT.)

I'd look at either standard pressure 147 grain JHPs - if you felt that they'd reliably expand at whatever velocities the KT drives them at. If you want to hotrod the 9mm, I'm not sure that the KT is the right platform.
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:02 AM
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It's my load of choice currently. (147's)
That is, when I can FIND IT, currently?
That's why I said what I said earlier. The bullets today are light years beyond anything even 10 years ago. Let alone prejudices existing from 4 decades ago! My point earlier was only that the 158 .38 Special +P in a SWCHP variant @ advertised velocity out of a 3 inch, had to be at the very least having it's performance equaled with a modern 147 JHP 9X19 out of a 3 1/4"(M&P9c). And long way around the barn perhaps? Saying if I was semi-comfortable with 5 of those (FBI's) in a 2" J, I ought to be twice as semi-comfortable with twice + that count on board of modern 147 9X19's?
I've only had about 3K rounds worth of 9X19 experience of any kind, so this is only a very green opinion. And since it's Earth Day, that should satisfy my quota of green things for the day!
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Old 04-23-2009, 11:00 AM
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I think Mas Ayoob indicated the 115+P was pretty good. I'm in the middle at 124.

However, I usually side with 38-44HD45!
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:27 PM
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This is my favorite size bullet in my 908, it seems to recoil less than 115gr and I and/or the gun are more accurate but I usually shoot 115 FMJ in matches and practice also with my 5906 because they are the least expensive rounds for volume shooting. I also plan to sued 147 JHP Hydra Shoks or winchester 147 JHP when I get my CPL approved.
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tacotime:
I think Mas Ayoob indicated the 115+P was pretty good.
It was pretty good when the average weight of an American 20-30 year old male was 165-pounds.

Is it still as good now?
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Old 04-24-2009, 07:32 PM
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In a word...yes.
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  #36  
Old 04-25-2009, 12:37 PM
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I carry 147gr Federal HST's in my G26 and 3913. I have read the HST bullets gets great expansion not like the older bullets.

Check out this expansion on the 147gr 9mm.
9mm test
Sure water jugs are not exactly human but I was impressed enough to buys some 147gr HST's.
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Old 04-25-2009, 01:02 PM
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Now if someone would just point me to where I could actually find some, I'd be a happy camper?
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:45 AM
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If you've ever watched a video of Hickok45, all he usually shoots in 9MM is a 147 grain FMJ projectile, he likes em'.
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:54 AM
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I'll stick with Win 127 +P+ since it's already proven itself on the street.
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:57 AM
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The 147 and the 124 are my favorites in 9mm. Use 115 only for practice. My two cents.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:14 AM
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Default It's always been an argument...

the question has been....low mass/high velocity or high mass/low velocity. After a lot of reading I'm now in the "use the highest mass that you can keep above 1000 fps" camp. This achieves good penetration and if you use a modern SD designed bullet (like an FTX or Gold Dot) it will expand as well because these are designed to expand at achievable handgun velocities. (typically above 900 fps). This always comes with the caveat that you have to be able to hit a vital area. Also, expect to fire more than one shot. I think the statistic is that most quick stops are achieved with 2.24 shots. So firing two and one quarter shots would be best policy. Of course if you can carry and control a more powerful gun that can shoot a higher mass bullet at a higher velocity, go for it and render these theories moot.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:30 AM
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I carry Federal LE 147gr HST's in my M&P9c.
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:45 AM
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I'm not getting into the light/medium/heavy bullet controversy. All I'll say is that my daughter's KelTec P-11 is most accurate with Winchester standard pressure 115 grain STHP Silvertip Hollow Points. My former next door neighbor gave me several boxes of the DEA 147 grain HydraShoks, but they weren't accurate in the P-11 and would nose-dive when feeding from the magazine. She went with accuracy and reliability.

Almost forgot - When the 9mm Federal 147 grain +P HydraShoks wouldn't feed in my daughter's KelTec P-11, we gave them to my brother. They shot like a house afire from his KelTec Sub2000 folding carbine. When my neighbor was transferred to take over another DEA office, my brother lost his source of free high-dollar ammo.

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Last edited by elm_creek_smith; 07-12-2013 at 02:36 PM. Reason: More to the story.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:20 AM
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As I recall, the heavier 9mm loads in particular the 147 gr was designed to be subsonic, for use in suppressed guns (think Navy Seals). I don't remember when they got to be popular for target and self-defense use.
I started loading 9mm back in 1993, and those heavier bullets weren't really on the radar yet. The standard self-defense load from all the ammo outfits was a non +P 115 gr JHP at around 1200 fps. I duplicated that with a Winchester or Remington bulk JHP over about 5.6 gr W231. That's still my 9mm load, although I haven't shot any in a long time-- more into my little 38 spl Chiefs.
Although I prefer heavier (148-158 gr) lead bullets in my 38's, I still lean toward the 115 gr JHP in the 9mm. "If it works, don't fix it" being the philosophy here.
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