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  #51  
Old 01-03-2011, 07:07 PM
Rob1109 Rob1109 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
That's not hard at all to believe, Rob - a few years back I was playing with (Tennessee Valley Bullets - I'd been using Rainiers and Berry's swaged/plated bullets until a friend in Arkansas told me about the amazing results he was getting with TVBs) hardcast DEWCs for defensive loads and I found that velocity was easily attained (and exceeded) with presently published Unique loads. A quite accurate loading, too. The potential legal ramifications of carrying handloads aside (which of course would not be an issue with the Buffalo Bore loadings), the only real downside that I can see to using it is that it's difficult to do a speedy reload with due to the short nose.

The one on the right:


Here are the results from the first range session I did with the load in question (these velocities were on the high end - averages from snubs tend to be about 75 fps lower):

Remember, folks, this is supposedly a standard pressure .38 Spl load per the Speer # 12 . . .
Max Unique load from Speer #12/TVB 148-gr hardcast DEWC
M 15 4" - M 1127/ES 19.88/SD 8.54
M 36-1 3" - M 1095/ES 49.10/sd 21.42
M 38-2 1 7/8" - M 1020/ES 75.92/SD 37.92

The load was actually unpleasant to shoot from the Airweight. It was fine to shoot from the other two guns, though I knew I'd launched something of consequence. These somewhat frightening results got me questioning my chronograph, so I immediately shot two 9x19 loads that I'd chrono'd the month before from the Sigma - and they both performed extremely similarly (both were a little faster - maybe the air was fast today) to the way they had last month, which made me think the chronograph was fine.

The two lower groups in this pic:


A later session:


Here are results from a later re-chronographing - these are more in line with the usual results:

TVB 148-gr DEWCs through the 1 7/8" 38-2; same range - 5950' > sea level, 36 F this time:

average of 954.8 fps, ES 36.71, SD 16.82



I would agree that under stress the full WC's would become a liability. I would use the SWC HP for reloads (if necessary).
I noted that you are 6000' above sea level and just above freezing resulting in thinner air(?) than most of us. BB states 868fps. on their 148/150gr. HC WC load from 1 7/8th" bbl. So you are there + some. On Ruger.net find terry_p's load using Power Pistol and Rim Rock bullets attempting to dulicate BB's 158gr. SWCHP GC +P. Good info there! I can imagine that your WC load was a bit snappy! I've bookmarked your post for the future. Do find terry_p and check the comments following on Power Pistol in a short barrel. He also "has it together".

Thanks again for your efforts. I'm running a 642 and an LCR, liking both for different reasons, so I'm interested in max. results w/o cracking bones in my palm!
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Old 01-03-2011, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
the only real downside that I can see to using it is that it's difficult to do a speedy reload with due to the short nose.
One would not have to carry the wadcutters in their
speedloader for their reloads, just because they had
wadcutters in their chamber.

I'm thinking wadcutters would be the perfect handloads to carry, as
you can honestly claim you were just carrying TARGET loads.

Joe

Last edited by Gamecock; 01-03-2011 at 07:23 PM.
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  #53  
Old 01-03-2011, 09:40 PM
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Hi Joe,

I've thought that, actually. Of course, it gets into the whole handload thing . . . unless you use these BB loads that Rob is mentioning.

Rob, I'm going to go dig around for that thread: I load with a lot of Power Pistol (I was just saying on another thread that I'm not sure whether I'd recommend it or Unique - my old stand-by - as the best and most versatile all-around powder these days) but have never messed with PP for "combat wadcutters". (Let me say right here: do NOT use Green Dot - the old max loadings of GD will throw those WCs out faster than you can believe . . . and they'll absolutely plate your bore with lead while they're doing it.) Only downside of PP vs. Unique is the flashiness - Unique is much better in the dark.
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  #54  
Old 01-03-2011, 11:23 PM
Rob1109 Rob1109 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
Hi Joe,

I've thought that, actually. Of course, it gets into the whole handload thing . . . unless you use these BB loads that Rob is mentioning.

Rob, I'm going to go dig around for that thread: I load with a lot of Power Pistol (I was just saying on another thread that I'm not sure whether I'd recommend it or Unique - my old stand-by - as the best and most versatile all-around powder these days) but have never messed with PP for "combat wadcutters". (Let me say right here: do NOT use Green Dot - the old max loadings of GD will throw those WCs out faster than you can believe . . . and they'll absolutely plate your bore with lead while they're doing it.) Only downside of PP vs. Unique is the flashiness - Unique is much better in the dark.
terry_p got his lead (soft) 158gr. SWCHP GC from Rim Rock Bullets (Buffalo Bore's supplier for both the 158 and the 148HC DEWC). Used PP at 7.0 (max. allowable) and almost equaled (w/i a few feet) BB's load vel. Alliant(?) max. is 7.0 gr. and terry didn't want to exceed that for .38spc. He did not attempt the WC loadings, which I thought would be an interesting exercise, as you proved. He recv'd comments that PP was not appropriate for short barrels. His research/results prevailed/proved correct, using the PP recommended max. loads vs. max. loads from Unique and (I believe) Bullseye (please verify the BE).

I know how to reload, just don't have the gear, so I depend on Guru's like you and Terry to supply the info I need.

Here is his thread. He is one of the moderators on that site.

http://rugerforum.net/reloading/2244...lswchp-gc.html

Best.

Last edited by Rob1109; 01-04-2011 at 01:22 AM.
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  #55  
Old 01-10-2011, 11:06 PM
Rob1109 Rob1109 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
Hi Joe,

I've thought that, actually. Of course, it gets into the whole handload thing . . . unless you use these BB loads that Rob is mentioning.

Rob, I'm going to go dig around for that thread: I load with a lot of Power Pistol (I was just saying on another thread that I'm not sure whether I'd recommend it or Unique - my old stand-by - as the best and most versatile all-around powder these days) but have never messed with PP for "combat wadcutters". (Let me say right here: do NOT use Green Dot - the old max loadings of GD will throw those WCs out faster than you can believe . . . and they'll absolutely plate your bore with lead while they're doing it.) Only downside of PP vs. Unique is the flashiness - Unique is much better in the dark.
Were you ever able to contact terry_p about the Power Pistol?
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  #56  
Old 01-11-2011, 01:58 AM
BLACKHAWKNJ BLACKHAWKNJ is offline
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I always thought SWCs were the "all around bullets". The sharp shoulder gave the clean hole in the paper of the WCs, greater range than the WCs, better penetration and many would argue they will work better against heavy clothing, barricades, automobiles, etc. that would defeat a JHP.
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  #57  
Old 01-11-2011, 08:40 AM
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Right, plus they reload easier.

Rob, I looked and couldn't find it. I'm happy with what I'm using and don't have a lot of time, though, so I didn't look all that hard.
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  #58  
Old 01-11-2011, 10:22 AM
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I have seen evidence that the "sharp round edge" of a lead wadcutter do not really cut out a round hole like some people believe. But I don't think the bad guy is going to know the difference. A 158 gr, LSWC traveling at 800fps is gonna hurt.
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:20 AM
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You know, all due respect to Mr. Cirillo (may he rest in peace), but cutting really isn't the issue . . .
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Old 01-11-2011, 04:28 PM
jmathis84 jmathis84 is offline
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I carry 148 FMJWC in my Model 10. I tried them in a couple different 38 and they worked great. Excellent penetration even out of a snub.
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Carry View Post
I have seen evidence that the "sharp round edge" of a lead wadcutter do not really cut out a round hole like some people believe. But I don't think the bad guy is going to know the difference. A 158 gr, LSWC traveling at 800fps is gonna hurt.
The ones Ive loaded and fired...(200 gr LSWC in .45 ACP) cut holes in paper targets that look like they were cut with a paper punch...?????
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:41 PM
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You can check out the Marshall Sannow stats at Handloads.Com - Stopping Power. Despite what the detractors say of MS data it gives the best comparative data for types of bullets used by police departments currently and in the past.

You will see that the flat point of the 158gr SWC in the .38 spl +P give nor significant advantage over the 158gr LRN in standard velocity. Hollow points have given better performance.

Flat point solids be they SWC or WC won't give you any better SD performance but they're not something anyone wants to get shot with and like any bullet work fine with the right bullet placement.
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmathis84 View Post
I carry 148 FMJWC in my Model 10. I tried them in a couple different 38 and they worked great. Excellent penetration even out of a snub.
I've never seen a jacketed wadcutter before. Who makes them?

Joe
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:42 PM
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Rainer and Berry's they are plated
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  #65  
Old 01-11-2011, 09:48 PM
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OT: on plated DEWCs - a few years back I did a fair amount of experimenting with these over various loading, in search of a defensive wadcutter loading. Found that the max standard-pressure .38 Spl loading of Unique (5.1 grains, standard primer, .38 case) gave me the best results in terms of accuracy and power.

Then a friend of mine tried the same thing with hardcasts. Let me tell you, Tennessee Valley Bullets hardcasts outperform the Rainiers (which outperformed the Berry's in this and every load from every gun for some reason) by a notable margin. I bought a mess of TVB WCs and have never looked back. (I'm still burning up Rainiers on target loads. )

Just FWIW . . .
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Old 01-19-2011, 07:48 PM
Rob1109 Rob1109 is offline
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Erich: were you ever about to consult with terry_p over on the Ruger site regarding Power Pistol?
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  #67  
Old 12-30-2016, 02:05 PM
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I'm a big fan of practice with what you'll carry. Given the price of premium jacketed bullets, I can't afford to punch paper with XTP's so I've recently switched to loading hard cast Hi-Tek coated lead bullets, 155gr SWC for my 40 and 180 gr WNFP for my 357.
The bottom line is $23.00/100 for JHP's vs $50/500 coated cast lead. My original intention was to use these for practice and load JHP's for carry but seeing the profile of these lead bullets, I believe they'll get the job done if I put em where I want em. As with JHP's, hopefully I'll never find.
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:12 PM
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A couple years back I was nuts on my m25 with 242g WCs at about 825fps. They shot so well I decided to deer hunt with it.
Took a 130lb doe at 30yds. It went down, jumped up and made
about 10yds before it piled up. Lucked out and knicked the heart
but the WC did a good job of dropping its oil pressure fast.
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:37 PM
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The San Diego Cal. Police Dept. issued lead SWC .38 Spl. until the late 80's or early 90's in standard velocity, I believe in the issue M-10 6"bbl. An officer could buy any Smith and Wesson, Colt or Ruger .357 or .38 Spl. 4" or 6" so long as he carried the issue ammo. I never heard of any complaints RE: this ammo. San Diego is the 7th largest city in USA and # 2 in Cal.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:29 AM
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When I first opened this thread I thought "man this is old" of course it is still relevant and the question still remains.
I load 158 LSWC with 3.5 bullseye and it shoots great from my model 60. I have considered carrying a similar load simply because I know where it will hit and I am familiar with it. I find I shoot the 158 better than the 148 wadcutters loaded from 2.8-3.5 of bullseye. At contact they are about the same but as distance increases I find the LSWC more accurate. I have debated buying LSWCHP from buffalo bore or one of the major manufacturers or if I should just go with LSWC and call it good.
I carry 135 Speer Gold Dots currently but they are made of unobtanium. I have not seen them in quite a few years.
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Old 01-05-2017, 02:22 PM
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I'm happy to see this old "Zombie" thread brought back to life. There are always newbys entering the confusing and heavens knows opinionated world of "what is best?". The really old semi wad cutter design is STILL a great performer in disabling the human body from being able to function. IMHO, if going with the SWC solid it should be cast from relatively soft lead. But, if going with the SWCHP, then it can and should be cast from a relatively 'hard' for lead compound. Just remember; in the final analysis of what works.....Bullet placement is, has been and always will be the most important of all factors controlled by the shooter........
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Old 01-06-2017, 01:34 AM
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Big Cholla, you could not have said it better. Bullet placement is the most important factor, in my mind, to achieving your goal. Whether shooting groups or STOPPING a threat. As an instructor told us " In a fight.. front sight".
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Old 01-06-2017, 01:44 AM
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Default Go with the SWC HPS

Hollow points. And in a bullet from soft swaged to about 12 b.h. If I get these with coatings I feel like I've got something close to the old Nyclad rounds.
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Old 01-06-2017, 12:53 PM
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Whatever we shoot (for personal protection) needs to result in sufficient penetration regardless of how many clothes a predator may be wearing. I personally have no problem with a full wadcutter or a semi wadcutter lead bullet. BUT, these rounds need a minimum amount of velocity in order to achieve that sufficient penetration. Increased velocity (over strictly target loads for paper) increases the chances of leading in the barrel, which makes cleaning often necessary to remove any leading present. The hardness of the lead alloy can allow increased velocities without the leading caused by softer alloys at the same speed.

It's my experience that some lead bullets (at any reasonable velocity) tend to lead barrels worse than others. So finding a good lead wadcutter or SWC bullet in the weight you want can take some experimentation. I like the full wadcutters as well as any, but they are slightly more problematic when it comes time to reload, especially if you are in a hurry. A good semi wadcutter will be easier to reload in a hurry. Speer used to produce a 160 grain bullet with a jacket and semi wadcutter shape that worked very well for me. The lead core was almost dead soft lead, but the round was loaded with enough jacket to cover the bottom half of the bullet and you crimped the round just over the jacket. Loaded, it looked just like a lead SWC bullet, but you could drive it with full mag velocity and get no leading in your barrel. The soft lead expanded well and the bullets stayed together for me at reasonable safe magnum velocities. I finally quit carrying these loads when it became more expedient not to carry anything but factory loaded issued ammo for liability reasons.

I carry a cylinder full of the Buffalo Bore full wads in the cylinder of my J Frames with a backup reload of their LSWCHP rounds on my belt or in my pocket. I also have confidence in the Speer Gold Dot rounds made for short barrels in these same guns. For me, most good lead bullets will do pretty well as far as leading is concerned up to around 900 fps velocity. It takes a pretty peppy loading to achieve that velocity in a short barrel. Not so much fun or easy to shoot in the lightweight examples of these guns!

I think we have to try various loadings and bullets to find one that achieves more velocity than a standard wadcutter training load that shoots well in our particular revolver and does not leave overmuch leading in the barrel. We also need to be able to shoot it well enough and quickly enough with enough accuracy to be able to land those rounds where they need to land. Given enough penetration, a round that hits where it will do the most good will get the job done in my experience. After penetration, good accuracy is always critical!

In the sixties, before there were a lot of good jacketed handgun bullets, I was routinely issued the .357 mag lead bullets made by Winchester that were SWC's coated in the lubaloy coating that Winchester used. These bullets had more than sufficient velocity and penetration from the four inch barrel of my Model 19, but after a very few cylinders full shot, you could push out enough lead from the barrel to nearly have enough to melt and cast another 158 grain round! Cleaning was a real chore! I'd just as soon have a good quality SWC lead round for short barrels as most of the jacketed HP bullets available, since much expansion is an iffy thing. If you don't like lead bullets, a good quality jacketed SWC style soft point with as wide and flat a nose as you can find will do pretty nicely, IF, big IF, they land where they will do the most good!
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Old 01-06-2017, 10:30 PM
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I have been loading acme coated swc. I am considering going to a hardcast load. I'm worried about leading and if I need to use a line. I will most likely run up to 3.5 bullseye under 148 hardcast dewc or 3.5 158 hardcast swc. This round will mainly be run through a model 60, a 586 and eventually maybe another air weight.
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Old 01-07-2017, 08:44 AM
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Pennbullets hardcast 148 gr bevel base wadcutter over 5.0 grains of Unique is my .38 Special defense load.

Mr. Palermo will make them hardcast on request (at a premium price).
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357 magnum, 637, 642, airweight, bullseye, cartridge, chronograph, colt, gunsmith, leather, model 10, model 15, police positive special, primer, remington, ruger, sig arms, sigma, snubby, snubnose, wadcutter, winchester

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